Steven Hager: The Two Oswalds

[Karl Kinaski]

How often we have been through this TWO OSWALDS thing ... propagated most by John Armstrong and his HARVY AND LEE Doorstopper which is debunked here: by John Delane Williams. He interviewed Ernst Titovets one of Oswalds compagnions in Minsk. 

 

There were a lot of Ossis ... but not the two "Armstrong Ossis" from the cradle to the grave ... Fans of that BS: the late Jack White and David Josephs ... 

 

KK

[Karl Kinaski]

Douglas Caddy want us to believe, that Howard Hunt told him, Kennedy was killed because he gave the ALIEN SECRETS away ... I am not that much of a "FRINGE" Fan to buy this ... 

[Karl Kinaski]

I highly recommend this article by John Delane Williams, which is the final nail in the coffin of pseudo-Cter John Armstrongs book HARVEY AND LEE.  

 

BTW: Ernst Titovets and Judyth Baker never met, I think they even don't know  each other, but they describe the same Oswald in their books: ME AND LEE and OSWALDS RUSSIAN EPISODE. 

Titovets on Y-Tube.

 

 

Edited December 27, 2016 by Karl Kinaski

[David Andrews]

PLEASE DELETE - I MOVED MY POST TO THE John D. Hurt THREAD, WHERE IT WAS MEANT TO GO.

Edited December 28, 2016 by David Andrews

[Mark Knight]

On ‎12‎/‎18‎/‎2016 at 3:00 AM, Karl Kinaski said:

Douglas Caddy want us to believe, that Howard Hunt told him, Kennedy was killed because he gave the ALIEN SECRETS away ... I am not that much of a "FRINGE" Fan to buy this ... 

Oh, I would not be surprised in the least that Hunt TOLD Mr. Caddy this. Then the bigger question would be, how much basis in FACT such an allegation by Hunt has.

[David Andrews]

"The alien presence" seems to me like The Big Lie and the conversation closer of all time.  Imagine Gordon Liddy: "Seriously, Howard - Just look 'em straight in the eye, say 'The alien presence,' and walk away.  That'll shut anybody up.  They'll be expecting the Air Force to come knocking if they say another word." 

[David Josephs]

You ain't gonna learn what you don't wanna know Tommy.

Deal with the evidence presented, not your opinions.

1. Not only talking about "looks" Tommy...  there is much more evidence offered than some photos.  
   Can you explain with evidence how an incoming 5'4" 115lb 7th grader in Sept 1952 becomes a 4'10" 90lb 9th grader by Aug 1953
    
2. Typographical errors?  Shown some examples of your conclusion here Tommy...  you saying so carries no weight at all.
    
3. When there is corroboration for these memories they gain more and more weight regardless of the time involved.  
   Again, this is you just listing things you can't understand - use some examples so those reading this can see how empty your attacks remain.
    
4. Your limited understanding of Popov's Mole shines thru Tommy.  Let me know when you've connected the FBI/CIA evidence for Oswald going to and coming from Mexico City with Popov's Mole hunt ala Simpich/Scott.  The evidence of activities at the Mexico City consulates have nothing to do with where Harvey or Lee were at the time other than Phillip's asset Alvarado coming forth on Nov 23rd to tell his interesting story.
   
   Rebutting one discussion with statements about another is effective at changing the subject...  and reveals how little you understand about Mexico City or H&L.  
    

I can appreciate you having an opinion Tommy, but then you hope one of your buddies comes along to present evidence to support your adopted position.

Let's not deal with the photos at all...  why would the DoD lie about where Harvey was when he was in Ping Tung?

On Sept 16, 1958 "Oswald" is both in Ping Tung and at MACS-1 US-NAS NAVY 3835.  58-12.jpg is the 9/14 Diary showing Oswald leaving for Ping Tung
Yet on Sept 20, 22, 23, & 29th he is seeing a doctor at MACS-1.  We have Donovan and others confirming Oswald at Ping Tung along with the Unit Diaries.

Your opinions notwithstanding Tommy, try a discussion WITHOUT your opinion.  Use facts, or evidence agreed upon as factual to counter this specific H&L topic..

Please know that I really couldn't care about your opinion posts unless it's backed with something concrete.
Stay on topic Tommy... we are discussion the EVIDENCE for H&L as I have provided with each post...  there's more below for you to express your opinions...

 Can you offer anything that actually attempts to convince us you've studied the topic and have a clue about what you are arguing about...

... or just more opinions... ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 23, 2017 by David Josephs

[John Butler]

Mr. Josephs,

I like you way of thinking and your work.  I have tried to make sense out of Lee Harvey Oswald and the many other Oswalds.  I have a 40 or so page .pdf on the subject that I would like to send you.  I would attach it here but, I think it is too large for a post.  If interested let me know.

[Sandy Larsen]

I'm waiting to hear Tommy's explanation for how Oswald could have received treatment for VD five times in Atsugi Japan, while he was simultaneously aboard USS Skagit headed for Ping Tung, Taiwan. (From Sept. 14 to 30.)

I see in the Unit Diary that Oswald was also hospitalized (Oct. 7 to 13), after returning to Atsugi. Yet this wasn't recorded in his sick call records. Maybe Tommy can explain that too.

Oswald returned to the United States shortly after these events . Perhaps Tommy can explain how it is that Oswald was at the Marine Corps Air Facility in Santa Ana, California on Oct. 29, four days prior to his leaving Japan by ship, on Nov. 2.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

TEN REASONS TO BELIEVE IN HARVEY AND LEE

10. The IMPOSSIBLE 1953 school scenario: Harvey at Youth House for truancy followed by Beauregard JHS in New Orleans while Lee has good attendance both semesters at PS 44 in NYC.

9. John Pic's inability to recognize clear photographs of his own brother.

8. The refusal of the Social Security Administration to corroborate the official story of "Oswald's" pre-1962 income, offering instead "Copies of three pages of the Warren Commission Report regarding employment of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to service in the Marine Corps."

7. The Marine Corps records are a gold mine: my favorite chronicles Harvey Oswald's trip to Formosa (Taiwan) while Lee was being treated for VD in Japan.

6. The Bolton Ford incident while Harvey was in Russia.

5. Marita Lorenz's secret testimony describing Lee Oswald with anti-Castro operatives in Miami and the Everglades while Harvey was in Russia.

4. Lee Oswald visiting the Texas Employment Commission, filling out forms and taking tests, while Harvey was in Russia.

3. The impossible answer(s) to the simple questions: Could Lee Harvey Oswald drive a car? Did he have a drivers license?

2. The well documented appearance of Lee Oswald in the balcony of the Texas Theater soon after the murder of J.D. Tippit with the simultaneous arrest of Harvey Oswald on the main floor of the same theater.

1. The behavior of the FBI in the first 48 hours of the "investigation," during which the Bureau confiscated many of "Lee Harvey Oswald's" school records and teen-aged employment histories. Six months later, the Bureau decided to test for fingerprints on boxes in the so-called "sniper's nest."

Visit the Harvey and Lee website at HarveyandLee.net

[Sandy Larsen]

6 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

1. The behavior of the FBI in the first 48 hours of the "investigation," during which the Bureau confiscated many of "Lee Harvey Oswald's" school records and teen-aged employment histories. Six months later, the Bureau decided to test for fingerprints on boxes in the so-called "sniper's nest."

You mean to say that the sniper's nest boxes weren't tested for fingerprints shortly after the nest was found?

[Jim Hargrove]

No, I didn't say that quite right.  The boxes were tested and they supposedly found some latent prints of "Oswald" on a couple of them (as would be expected since he worked there).  But one or more of the prints on the boxes was unidentified, and it was months later before the FBI exhibited much interest on who might have put them there.  

[Sandy Larsen]

Thanks for clarifying that.

But how does that tie in with the Harvey & Lee concept?

[Karl Kinaski]

18 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

TEN REASONS TO BELIEVE IN HARVEY AND LEE

10. The IMPOSSIBLE 1953 school scenario: Harvey at Youth House for truancy followed by Beauregard JHS in New Orleans while Lee has good attendance both semesters at PS 44 in NYC.

9. John Pic's inability to recognize clear photographs of his own brother.

8. The refusal of the Social Security Administration to corroborate the official story of "Oswald's" pre-1962 income, offering instead "Copies of three pages of the Warren Commission Report regarding employment of Lee Harvey Oswald prior to service in the Marine Corps."

7. The Marine Corps records are a gold mine: my favorite chronicles Harvey Oswald's trip to Formosa (Taiwan) while Lee was being treated for VD in Japan.

6. The Bolton Ford incident while Harvey was in Russia.

5. Marita Lorenz's secret testimony describing Lee Oswald with anti-Castro operatives in Miami and the Everglades while Harvey was in Russia.

4. Lee Oswald visiting the Texas Employment Commission, filling out forms and taking tests, while Harvey was in Russia.

3. The impossible answer(s) to the simple questions: Could Lee Harvey Oswald drive a car? Did he have a drivers license?

2. The well documented appearance of Lee Oswald in the balcony of the Texas Theater soon after the murder of J.D. Tippit with the simultaneous arrest of Harvey Oswald on the main floor of the same theater.

1. The behavior of the FBI in the first 48 hours of the "investigation," during which the Bureau confiscated many of "Lee Harvey Oswald's" school records and teen-aged employment histories. Six months later, the Bureau decided to test for fingerprints on boxes in the so-called "sniper's nest."

Visit the Harvey and Lee website at HarveyandLee.net

You may visit  the Blog of by John Delane William, and read this article about Titovets vs John Armstrong:  Armstrong is wrong about who spoke English or Russian in Minsk. Oswald, acc. to Titovests, spoke Russian. It is a cornerstone of the Arsmtrong TWO OSSIS theory, that the Minsk Oswald did not speak Russian... He did. There was no need for an interpreter.  Armstrong and his TWO OSSi from the cradle to the grave scenario is disintegrating before our eyes. 

 

Excerpt from the article by John Delane Williams, quote.

 

 

                                          Titovets’ Reading of Harvey and Lee

 

Ernst Titovets apparently decided to read Harvey and Lee for himself, partially to answer the question, how did Armstrong conclude that Oswald spoke no Russian in Russia? Titovets then sent me an e-mail [35] addressing only those portions of Armstrong’s book that pertained to Oswald’s being in Russia and only those portions which were familiar to Titovets.

 

Armstrong [36]:”I wanted to be sure I understood her answer and said, “Ana you knew Oswald from the time he arrived in Minsk until the day he and Marina left for the United States. You and your parents accompanied them to the train station and took photographs (published in the Warren Volumes). During that time he never spoke any Russian, even up to the day he left Minsk?” Ana, once again replied, “No,-not a word. My father always interpreted for him-he was the only person in the family who spoke English…” (p. 288)…“An English-speaking medical student, Erich (Ernst) Titovets, first met Oswald at the Hotel Minsk and later was a regular visitor to his apartment.” (p. 289).

Titovets: Actually, I met Oswald not at the Hotel Minsk, but at the Zigers apartment. It was in the presence of the whole family: Alexander Zigers, his wife Signora Anna and his two daughters, Anita, [37] and Eleanora. Oswald spoke Russian and there was no need to interpret for him.

 

Armstrong [38]: “At the factory Oswald met another person who spoke English. Pavel Golovachev, the son of a famous Soviet Air Force General…After Pavel and Oswald began spending a lot of time together the KGB asked him to report on Oswald’s activities. He dutifully informed of his contacts with Oswald and kept them apprised of his movements.” (p. 289).

Titovets: Pavel Golovachev did not speak English at all. Once he confided in me that he wished he did and he was sorry he did not speak the language.

 

 Armstrong [39] “On October 18 [1960] Lee Harvey Oswald celebrated his 21st birthday. Ella Germann, a girl from the Horizon factory who Oswald had been dating the past two months, and spoke very good English, attended a small birthday party at his apartment.”(p. 311).

Titovets: Ella Germann did not speak English at all.  

 

Armstrong [40]:”It is clear that Marina associated with Americans, spoke English with Webster and almost certainly spoke English with Oswald… Marina’s ability to read, write, and speak English fluently before she left Russia is indisputable.” (p. 340).

 

Titovets: Marina did not speak English at all. It would be really surprising if she would have spoken English with Oswald and completely ignored me even when the three of us were together. 

 

Armstrong [41]: “When Oswald and Marina met, danced, and agreed to a date the following Friday they spoke a common language. Was it Russian or English? The HSCA asked Marina, ‘At the time were you speaking Russian together?’ She answered, ‘Yes. He spoke with an accent so I assumed he was from another state.’ Oswald came in contact with hundreds of people in Russia, but Marina is the only person-THE ONLY PERSON who said that he spoke Russian while in Russia.” (p. 334).

 

Titovets: Armstrong is right about there were so many people who met Oswald in Minsk. There are still many living who would have testified to the fact that Oswald spoke Russian to them. Had John Armstrong followed Norman Mailer’s [42] example, he would have come to Minsk and interviewed them.

 

In the book Oswald: Russian Episode [43] one can find an illustration with Oswald’s longhand in Russian on the inside cover of a book where Oswald contemplates the names for his future child. Incidentally, Oswald signed his writings.          

 

When a date-line does not fit Armstrong’s he dismisses it as an error and suggests his “correct” one. To give an example:

Armstrong [44]: “NOTE: We will soon see the date of March 17 is in error.” (p. 333).

Titovets: It is the night at the Trade Union Palace when Oswald first met Marina Prussokova. The date of March 17, 1961 is correct.

 

close quote

 

KK

 

 

Edited December 31, 2016 by Karl Kinaski

[Jim Hargrove]

Hi, Karl….

Haven’t heard from you since the last time you visited here, as always pronouncing the Two Oswalds were dead and buried.  Funny how you have to keep doing that so often. Oh well, its good to have a purpose in life, eh?

This time around, you declare that since Prof. Ernst Titovets said that “Oswald” spoke Russian while in the USSR, and Anita (Ana) Ziger said he didn’t, this proves beyond a doubt there was only one Oswald.  Am I stating your theory correctly?

Bear in mind that it is Ms. Ziger, not John Armstrong, who said “Oswald” only spoke English while with her in the USSR.  

Ana Ziger and her family had a clear relationship with “Oswald,” which is mentioned at least five times in just the Warren Commission Report.  Her father, who spoke English, worked closely with “Oswald” at the Minsk Radio plant.

Here’s p. 271 from the WCR showing “Oswald” standing next to Ms. Ziger’s friend Alfred.

 

Here’s a photo of “Oswald” and Ms. Ziger together:

 

Ms. Ziger clearly spent time with “Oswald” in the USSR, and her views can hardly be dismissed out of hand.  By the 1990s she was living in Buenos Aires, and in 1998 John Armstrong and a friend traveled there to meet with her.  During several lengthy interviews, Ana declared that Oswald didn’t speak any Russian and seemed unwilling to learn the language.

Which leads us to the conflicting views of Prof. Titovets.  He certainly MAY have known “Oswald” in the Soviet Union, though the evidence is not as clear.  The highly suspect diary of “Oswald” refers  to an “Eraich Titov” once and “Erich” (first name only) two more times.

The Warren Commission Report does not refer to “Titovets” at all, but does mention “Erik Titovyets” twice, both apparently references to the “historic diary.” 

If memory serves, the private Intourist guide Rima Sherikova “Oswald” hired in Moscow indicated he did not seem to speak a word of Russian.  Moscow doctors treating the wrist wound from his so-called suicide attempt also wrote that Oswald indicated he did not speak Russian but seemed to understand some of the things said about him in Russian.

Since you obviously are interested in trying to debunk the two Oswalds above any other Kennedy research, Karl, if I were you I’d rely on the HSCA volume, 13 maybe, that is devoted to little other than attempting to debunk the two Oswald claim.  That would probably work better for you than your latest lame attempt, at least among the government loyalists.  Just a helpful suggestion….

Visit the Harvey and Lee Website at HarveyandLee.net