Jump to content
The Education Forum
  • Announcements

    • Evan Burton

      OPEN REGISTRATION BY EMAIL ONLY !!! PLEASE CLICK ON THIS TITLE FOR INFORMATION REQUIRED FOR REGISTRATION!:   06/03/2017

      We have 5 requirements for registration: 1.Sign up with your real name. (This will be your Username) 2.A valid email address 3.Your agreement to the Terms of Use, seen here: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=21403. 4. Your photo for use as an avatar  5.. A brief biography. We will post these for you, and send you your password. We cannot approve membership until we receive these. If you are interested, please send an email to: edforumbusiness@outlook.com We look forward to having you as a part of the Forum! Sincerely, The Education Forum Team
Sign in to follow this  
David Josephs

z313 was shot #2 - not #3

Recommended Posts

49 minutes ago, George Sawtelle said:

Micah

Wishing it didn´t happen is not going to make it go away.

"Probably" is not good enough.

I mean no disrespect but you need to do a little more research. I think you are a novice to the JFK debate.

As the limo turned onto Elm from Houston the limo was not visible to the sniper on the sixth floor of the TSBD. There were oak trees between the limo and the sniper.The limo didn´t become visible to the sniper until Z-frame 210 according to a FBI report. So the first two shots could not have come from the TSBD.

There are no witnesses which are unambiguously describing a shot sequence coming before z190. I think pre-z190 shots are most likely a myth. Pat Speer has a few chapters on his website demonstrating this with the most comprehensive sampling of Dealey Plaza witness statements I've ever seen anywhere.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

David

The throat shot was the second shot, not the first.

Zapruder was startled by a second shot so much so that he jiggled his camera in response. This occurred at Z-Frame 193.

Also the acoustics data indicate a shot near Z-Frame 193.

Photos and witness testimony was changed by the cover-up machine. I don´t trust any of it. I rely on the forensics.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Micah a year or two ago the LN´s acknowledged that a loud noise happened as the limo made the turn from Houston onto Elm. But they said it was a backfire from either a vehicle or motorcycle in the parade, not a rifle or gun shot. I know because I argued with them over on Duncan´s forum.

Now they ignore it completely as if to say it never happened hoping that it goes away. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, George Sawtelle said:

Micah a year or two ago the LN´s acknowledged that a loud noise happened as the limo made the turn from Houston onto Elm. But they said it was a backfire from either a vehicle or motorcycle in the parade, not a rifle or gun shot. I know because I argued with them over on Duncan´s forum.

Now they ignore it completely as if to say it never happened hoping that it goes away. 

The first loud shot the witnesses describe came at z190-224.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, George Sawtelle said:

Micah

Yes there was a loud shot at Z-193. And there was a loud noise at Z-158.

What is your favorite witness that demonstrates this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Micah

Don.t have a favorite witness.

BTW, we´re talking about ear witnesses right as opposed to eye witnesses. Of course no one actually saw a shot, they heard a shot, thus ear witnesses.

With regard to ear witnesses, maybe they heard an echo instead of a shot.

What distinguishes a shot from an echo?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Of course no one actually saw a shot,

Yet they saw the result of the missed z157 shot.  

Just after President Kennedy’s limousine passed the front steps of the TSBD, five witnesses saw a bullet strike the pavement on Elm Street near the right rear of the limousine. Witnesses saw this bullet kick up concrete toward the car (Weisberg 187-189; cf. Posner 324; Moore 198).

Again George, there is evidence offered of the SS seeing him hit in the back well after the turn onto Elm.  What evidence do you offer to support his being hit in the back and then showing not a single reaction or impairment as a result of that shot...  

Here are both the 2nd and 3rd floor windows enhanced from Altgens.  I see people in those windows so there being the source of a shot or shots is compelling.
And as you say, the sound described is a street level sound so the 2nd floor makes sense.  Yet the initial response from Humes is that the bullet angled severely downward upon entry suggesting a higher angle than Dal-Tex 2nd Floor.

SS SA Bennett:  At this point I heard what_sounded like a fire-cracker. I immediately looked from the right/crowd/physical area/and looked towards the President who was seated in the right rear seat of his limousine open convertible. At the moment I looked at the back of the President I heard another fire-cracker noise and saw the shot hit the President about four inches down from the right shoulder.

Now we can't be 100% sure this isn't a CYA gesture since Bennet is in the left rear of the Queen Mary (facing the car) and appears to be blocked by everyone on that side of the vehicle.  IDK.

What I do know is I'd need a bit more evidence that something actually occurred other than a camera jiggle from the man with vertigo being held in place by someone else...

The evidence has to be complimentary for your conclusion, and so far I've only seen you talk about what people heard, rather than what they saw.

But this is a good thread...  I like your thinking, just need a bit more to hang a hat upon...

DJ

 

altgens 5 - dal tex windows - 2nd and 3rd floor fire escape windows.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

David

Evidence of a shot from the Del Tex Bldg at Z-158 is compelling.

1. Jiggle analysis, which is regarded by the US government as a scientific test, shows that Zapruder was startled by a loud noise at Z-158.

2. The wound in Kennedy´s back did not go through his back. The bullet entered only an inch or two and stopped. The sound was muffled and did not register enough echo peaks to be regarded as a shot by BBN . It registered 4 peaks but it needed to register at least 11.

3. I believe the assassin in the Del Tex building used home made ammunition. Apparently the bullet was not packed properly and thus the misfire and the muffled sound.

4. The Warren Commission did not receive any frames before frame Z-173. So they analyzed the Zapruder film not knowing anything about the first shot. A later version shows Kennedy arching his back in response to being shot in the back. The version quickly dissappeared from the internet.

5. So why hide the frames that show evidence of a shot at Z-158? Simple, evidence of a shooter other than the shooter in the TSBD. The CIA sat on it for more than 22 years. When the supposedly untainted Zap film was seen for the first time Kennedy is seen waving and smiling as the limo turns onto Elm. 

6. The CIA was short of time and couldn´t change the frames at the beginning of the film before turning over the film to the Warren Commission. They said the film came from LIFE but if you believe that you´ll believe anything. And of course they spent most of their time altering the film to sell the SBT.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, George Sawtelle said:

Micah

Don.t have a favorite witness.

BTW, we´re talking about ear witnesses right as opposed to eye witnesses. Of course no one actually saw a shot, they heard a shot, thus ear witnesses.

With regard to ear witnesses, maybe they heard an echo instead of a shot.

What distinguishes a shot from an echo?

People watching the limousine describe Kennedy reacting to the first shot by "slumping" or raising his arms. You'll often see witnesses say they saw the limo slow down or stop after the first shot.

There are multiple blurs in the Zapruder Film, it doesn't mean there was a shot. I forgot who it was, but somebody also proved that this kind of blurring can happen if you're tracking a moving object that briefly disappears behind an object. So the blur is actually weak evidence. Rosemary Willis is also a very weak witness. The only thing approaching strong evidence for a shot before z190-224 is Connally's  quick head turn. But if all other evidence indicates a first shot at z190-224, then that can be dismissed as a coincidence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Micah, 

I'd suggest not getting too hung up on "shot #1, #2, etc...  By most accounts there were well more than 3 shots fired and 3 shots hitting their mark.

George's jiggle analysis reference neglects the simple things such as the distance from DAL-TEX 2nd floor to JFK at 156...  and then to completely miss everything?

George makes some decent points yet a bullet lodged in his back from 157 thru the sign without a single sign of its effect convinces me that Hickey and Willis are reacting to a missed shot, just as the witnesses said they saw something hit the concrete at that time.  Zapruder's angle did not include Dal-Tex's fire escape or those windows.

George, does this look like a man who's been shot?

 

 

Now let's look at an actual "cause and effect".   As JFK emerges he is hit in the back and is seen being pushed forward and then slightly up with the raising of his arms.  This is definitely a reaction to being shot regardless of jiggle, ear-witnesses or anything else.  

Most understand that he is hit in the throat as he disappears behind the sign which has caused his hands to clinch.  

 

 

Quote

4. The Warren Commission did not receive any frames before frame Z-173. So they analyzed the Zapruder film not knowing anything about the first shot. A later version shows Kennedy arching his back in response to being shot in the back. The version quickly dissappeared from the internet.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/html/WH_Vol18_0050b.htm is CE888 which depicts Z161 so right off there's a bit of conflict with your conclusion.  Shaneyfelt and Specter did their best to remove everything prior to 161:

Mr. SHANEYFELT. This is an album that I prepared of black and white photographs made of the majority of the frames in the Zapruder film---- 
Mr. SPECTER. Starting with what frame number? 
Mr. SHANEYFELT. Starting with frame 171, going through frame 334. 
Mr. SPECTER. And why did you start with frame 171? 
Mr. SHANEYFELT. This is the frame that the slides start from. This was an arbitrary frame number that was decided on as being far enough back to include the area that we wanted to study. 
------
Mr. SPECTER. What was the starting position of the car at the most easterly position on Elm Street, immediately after turning off Houston Street? 
Mr. SHANEYFELT. The first position we established that morning was frame 161. 
Mr. SPECTER. Was there not a position established prior in sequence to frame 161, specifically that designated as position A? 
Mr. SHANEYFELT. That was actually established later. But the first one to be actually located was 161. And we went back later and positioned point A. 
Mr. SPECTER. Well, let's start with the position which is the most easterly point on Elm Street, which I believe would be position A, would it not? 
Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. 
Mr. SPECTER. Have you a photographic exhibit depicting that position? 
Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; in each of the positions that we established,
we used, insofar as possible, the Zapruder pictures to establish the position, or we established it from the window, and made photographs from the position Mr. Zapruder was standing in. 
Mr. SPECTER. This chart has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 886.
Mr. SHANEYFELT. This shows the photograph that was made from the point where Zapruder was standing looking toward the car, and is a point that we have designated as position A because it is in a position that did not appear on the Zapruder film.  The Zapruder film does not start until the car gets farther down Elm Street. 

 

So here we are again at Position A.  A location NOT filmed yet somehow identified as:

Mr. SPECTER. So that would be the first position where the marksman could focus in on the circled point where the point of entry on the President was marked? 
Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. 
Mr. SPECTER. Could the marksman then have taken a shot at the President at any prior position and have struck him with the point of entry on that spot, on the base of the President's neck? 
Mr. SHANEYFELT. I don't quite understand the question. 
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any prior position, that is a position before position A, where the marksman from the sixth floor could have fired the weapon and have struck the President at the known point of entry at the base of the back of his neck? 
Mr. SHANEYFELT. No; because as the car moves back, you lose sight of the chalk mark on the back of his coat. 

Does this look to you as 1) the JFK stand-in would disappear under the tree? or 2) that you can't roll that limo back a few feet and still hit the stand-in in the back?

AND 3) since the limo supposedly did not travel along that path (see ce875 for a photo ever 25 feet - from station to station as derived by West's survey plat) why bother including it for any reason other than the fact it very well may have happened and is one of the reasons the turn onto Elm was removed/altered

 

Mr. TRULY. That is right.
And the President's car following close behind came along at an average speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn. 
Mr. BELIN. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and as he curved--as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb? 
Mr. TRULY. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost stop, to pull over to the left.
If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little section here. 
Mr. BELIN. All right.

 

 

Edited by David Josephs
need room for new attachments

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Micah, 

I'd suggest not getting too hung up on "shot #1, #2, etc...  By most accounts there were well more than 3 shots fired and 3 shots hitting their mark.

George's jiggle analysis reference neglects the simple things such as the distance from DAL-TEX 2nd floor to JFK at 156...  and then to completely miss everything?

George makes some decent points yet a bullet lodged in his back from 157 thru the sign without a single sign of its effect convinces me that Hickey and Willis are reacting to a missed shot, just as the witnesses said they saw something hit the concrete at that time.  Zapruder's angle did not include Dal-Tex's fire escape or those windows.

George, does this look like a man who's been shot?

Z170-180 JFK Smiling.jpg

 

Now let's look at an actual "cause and effect".   As JFK emerges he is hit in the back and is seen being pushed forward and then slightly up with the raising of his arms.  This is definitely a reaction to being shot regardless of jiggle, ear-witnesses or anything else.  

Most understand that he is hit in the throat as he disappears behind the sign which has caused his hands to clinch.  

z222-235-JFK-hit-in-the-back-and-pushed-forward.gif

 

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh18/html/WH_Vol18_0050b.htm is CE888 which depicts Z161 so right off there's a bit of conflict with your conclusion.  Shaneyfelt and Specter did their best to remove everything prior to 161:

Mr. SHANEYFELT. This is an album that I prepared of black and white photographs made of the majority of the frames in the Zapruder film---- 
Mr. SPECTER. Starting with what frame number? 
Mr. SHANEYFELT. Starting with frame 171, going through frame 334. 
Mr. SPECTER. And why did you start with frame 171? 
Mr. SHANEYFELT. This is the frame that the slides start from. This was an arbitrary frame number that was decided on as being far enough back to include the area that we wanted to study. 
------
Mr. SPECTER. What was the starting position of the car at the most easterly position on Elm Street, immediately after turning off Houston Street? 
Mr. SHANEYFELT. The first position we established that morning was frame 161. 
Mr. SPECTER. Was there not a position established prior in sequence to frame 161, specifically that designated as position A? 
Mr. SHANEYFELT. That was actually established later. But the first one to be actually located was 161. And we went back later and positioned point A. 
Mr. SPECTER. Well, let's start with the position which is the most easterly point on Elm Street, which I believe would be position A, would it not? 
Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes. 
Mr. SPECTER. Have you a photographic exhibit depicting that position? 
Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; in each of the positions that we established,
we used, insofar as possible, the Zapruder pictures to establish the position, or we established it from the window, and made photographs from the position Mr. Zapruder was standing in. 
Mr. SPECTER. This chart has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 886.
Mr. SHANEYFELT. This shows the photograph that was made from the point where Zapruder was standing looking toward the car, and is a point that we have designated as position A because it is in a position that did not appear on the Zapruder film.  The Zapruder film does not start until the car gets farther down Elm Street. 

 

So here we are again at Position A.  A location NOT filmed yet somehow identified as:

Mr. SPECTER. So that would be the first position where the marksman could focus in on the circled point where the point of entry on the President was marked? 
Mr. SHANEYFELT. That is correct. 
Mr. SPECTER. Could the marksman then have taken a shot at the President at any prior position and have struck him with the point of entry on that spot, on the base of the President's neck? 
Mr. SHANEYFELT. I don't quite understand the question. 
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any prior position, that is a position before position A, where the marksman from the sixth floor could have fired the weapon and have struck the President at the known point of entry at the base of the back of his neck? 
Mr. SHANEYFELT. No; because as the car moves back, you lose sight of the chalk mark on the back of his coat. 

Does this look to you as 1) the JFK stand-in would disappear under the tree? or 2) that you can't roll that limo back a few feet and still hit the stand-in in the back?

AND 3) since the limo supposedly did not travel along that path (see ce875 for a photo ever 25 feet - from station to station as derived by West's survey plat) why bother including it for any reason other than the fact it very well may have happened and is one of the reasons the turn onto Elm was removed/altered

Position A CE886.jpg

Mr. TRULY. That is right.
And the President's car following close behind came along at an average speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn. 
Mr. BELIN. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and as he curved--as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb? 
Mr. TRULY. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost stop, to pull over to the left.
If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little section here. 
Mr. BELIN. All right.

 

1964_FBI_REENACTMENT_ Position A.jpg

If a single-assassin scinareo must have the first shot hitting, then that brings up the question of the accuracy of a just-assembled Carcano.

Edited by Micah Mileto

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

David

Not only the jiggle analysis says a shot at Z-158 but also BBN´s acoustics investigation. That is the point I tried to make in No. 2 of my post above.

So we have two scientific investigations that bolster eachother.

Then you add in the back wound, which obviously was a misfire (bullet only entered the body 1-2 inches), corroborated by the acoustics of muffled rifle fire.

The Zap film that was given to the Warren Commission lacked many frames, including  Z-208, 209, 210, 211, and 212. These frames were said to have been destroyed by a LIFE magazine technician. I am 99% sure that Kennedy starts to go to his throat at Z-206 due to a shot from the grassy knoll and the missing frames show he has his hands at his throat BEFORE the sign. They were removed to fake the SBT.

You will never find out what happeneed to Kennedy by relying on witness testimony, films and photos simply because they have been altered. The CIA are experts at covering up their crimes. The Kennedy assassination is another example of their work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure how you get that reply from what I offered...  

There were absolutely more than one shooter
If a shot was actually taken from the 6th floor SE corner - of which only Euins is a witness and even he is questionable - it most certainly was not with that Carcano.

Regarding a first shot hit...  If we accept the testimony and trust our eyes, a shot misses around z155..

The concern I raise has to do with that wide turn onto Elm and Shaneyfelt creating Position A despite nothing on the films or photos suggesting the limo ever passes thru that point.

If we look at Z133 and where POS A is - there is nothing offered to reconcile this conflict or the addition of this point beyond Shaneyfelt's bad explanation for it.
And then, when we learn that Shaneyfelt altered the path of the limo by moving it south 1.1 feet we also find - compliments of Chris Davidson's work - that Position A relates to a point the actual path and Shaneyfelt's path diverge... to only meet up again at Z313.

As I ask in my essay on WCD298 - other than Altgens and Hudson, what evidence supports the placement of a shot down by the GK stairs?
Certainly not the films or photos...  while Altgens claims the headshot occurs directly in front of him

Mr. ALTGENS - Because I didn't see who fired it. After the Presidential car moved a little past me, I took another picture--now, just let me back up here--I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera.
Because, you see, even up to that time I didn't know that the President had been shot previously. I still thought up until that time that all I heard was fireworks and that they were giving some sort of celebration to the President by popping these fireworks. It stunned me so at what I saw that I failed to do my duty and make the picture that I was hoping to make.

Mr. LIEBELER - You also testified that you were standing perhaps no more than 15 feet away when the President was hit in the head and that you are absolutely certain that there were no shots fired after the President was hit in the head?
Mr. ALTGENS - Yes, sir; that's correct.

 

So we have an amazing conflict here.   While TIME/LIFE, SS & FBI all place a "third" shot by the 2nd yellow curb and not the first which is near Moorman, this "third" shot location obviously shows JFK already hit in the head...    For some reason Altgens tries to support the TSBD as the source of the shots yet the rest of his testimony conflicts with the film, just not the survey's done between Nov 26 and Feb 7.

The Dec 5th results become WCD298.  The Feb 7 results get revisited in May when Eisenberg and gang rewrite history.  Thing is we can't get away from West's surveys... 

Question is Chicken or the Egg... Was this surveyed point provided by those overseeing the surveys or are they independently derived by WEST.  The other sketches made by Shaneyfelt/Specter/Frasier all show that "last" shot down by Altgens and the 2nd yellow curb.   

Was this an actual shot?  or simply a way to allow for 3 shots and 3 hits per the Dec 9th FBI report WCD1 https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10402#relPageId=8&tab=page  JFK hit by #'s 1 and 3, JC by #2... and this was the conclusion until May/June 1964 when the Silly Bullet Theory was created after shots at the top of Elm and bottom of Elm are removed to accomodate the 3 = 3 conclusions of the FBI.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by David Josephs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

David

I think you believe that a shot was fired at Z-158 but that it missed the limo entirely and hit the pavement to the right of the limo. I´m saying a shot was fired at Z-158 and hit Kennedy in the back.

You are saying that Kennedy was hit in the back at Z-224. I say Kennedy was hit in the throat at Z-193, and reacts to being hit in the throat starting at Z-206. The five missing frames show Kennedy going to his throat before the sign, not after the sign. I say Connally was hit in the back at Z-224.

There were two snipers on the grassy knoll. One was stationed behind the picket fence west of the corner of the picket fence and the other was located behind the picket fence north of the corner. Both were hidden behind overhanging branches.

The sniper who shot Kennedy in the throat fired from behind the fence through an opening in the pergola. He had to fire at that time because the limo was coming up on the sign.

Using jiggle analysis, the highest peak of the six peaks that can be seen on pg 208, table 2, Hear No Evil, Don Thomas, shows the second shot as the second highest, with the shot-313, the highest. This means that the sniper who shot Kennedy in the throat was very close to Zapruder.

Edited by George Sawtelle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×