Wynne and Vicki, Southland Center 1963

[Andrej Stancak]

 

I would like to turn the attention of Forum members to a remarkable testimony of Mr. Wynne Johnson. Wynne was 15 years old in 1963, and had a girlfriend Vicki. Vicki and Wynne liked to visit the roof of the Southland Center to view the scenery of Dallas. And so they did on September 7, 1963. As unexpected and unbelievable as only the life can pose, these two children became witnesses of an event which researchers of the President Kennedy assassination consider as a clear and undisputed proof of a direct contact between Oswald and Maurice Bishop alias a CIA asset David Atlee Phillips: their meeting in Dallas in September 1963. Thanks to Gaeton Fonzi’s research, we know that that meeting also included Antonio Veciana, one of the chief representatives of anti-Castro movement in Miami. It was Veciana who told Fonzi and the House Committee about the Bishop-Oswald meeting.

Wynne and Vicki were approaching the Southland Center when a taxi cab passed and a young man, Lee Harvey Oswald, stepped out. Oswald entered the main lobby, met with Phillips and both men started to talk. Shortly, Veciana came in via a different entrance. And while the three men stood together in the lobby, Wynne and Vicki also entered a long corridor and headed towards the three men.

Mr. Wynne Johnson recorded details of their encounter with Oswald, Phillips and Veciana in three video sequences. Wynne followed every possible lead to support his story. More than fifty years which elapsed could have taken its toll on the vividness of Wynne’s memories. However, Mr. Wynne Johnson had the courage to come forward and speak. Mr. Johnson, in my view, is an honest man and seeks neither fame nor money. Wynne also shows a certain type of charming naivety in his approach towards researchers and certain books owing to the fact that he did not research the assassination case for fifty years. This only strengthens Wynne’ testimony in my eyes.

Mr. Wynne Johnson posted his story on YouTube, and this is how I came to it. I decided to suggest Wynne to present his story to the Forum members since his story is also a part of the history of the assassination case, and as such it has to be preserved. I would therefore appreciate if those researchers who disagree or have doubts about this comparatively recent testimony could express their views in a polite way – about the same polite way as it was the custom in old Forum posts from 2005.

Please find here the links to Mr. Wynne Johnson’s YouTube videos:

Southland Center 1963, part 1:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKw_ELuXYj8&t=5s

Southland Center 1963, part 2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uO1-Ezw6Qkw

Southland Center 1963, part 3:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhxMlnkeFV4

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

 

I wrote a message to Wynne few weeks ago. I wanted to know what could be the reason for Lee Harvey Oswald to undertake a long trip from New Orleans to Dallas and not to spend any time to converse with Phillips.

This is what Mr. Wynne Johnson wrote back. I am copying the relevant part of his email with Wynne’s approval:

Mr. Wynne Johnson, 9-10/2/2017:

“With a certain qualification, the only people at that end of the lobby arrived in the order: Phillips, Oswald, Veciana, and then, simultaneously, Wynne and Vicki.  Oswald had a very short amount of time with Phillips before Veciana came in.  This is known from Oswald himself in phone conversation with Judyth Vary Baker.  See her book Me & Lee.  I myself know that Phillips and Oswald did not have much time together before Vicki and I came in, but slightly longer than you might think, because Vicki and I came down the long corridor at an exceptionally slow walk. …

It is true that Oswald was supposed to meet with Phillips that day, but Phillips sent him away, back to New Orleans, as soon as the three of them got outside.  We know this both from what Veciana told Fonzi (see his book) and what Lee himself told Judyth.  What they did not know is the probable reason why Phillips changed his mind about talking to Oswald then.  The reason is me.  Phillips suspected that 15-year-old -- in fact, probably both of us 15-year-olds.  I assure you that this actually happened. 

I saw Veciana in person in Miami in October, 2015.  He does not remember the encounter well. We spoke entirely in Spanish.  Although I did not ask him, a good friend of his had told me by e-mail that he did not know English very well in 1963.  Therefore, he could well have been in a kind of foreign-language fog, so that he did not understand what was said and whatever he heard would have become easy to forget.”

 

Edited February 10, 2017 by Andrej Stancak

[Michael Clark]

This video sucked me into the rabbit hole, after my interest in this case had laid dormant for many years. 

I am copying a post I made on another thread. I would like to nail down where this meeting took place. Also, if there is any earlier, authorative account as to the location of this meeting I would love to hear it.

-------------------------

"The building where DAP/LHO/AV may not be of much consequence. It has been, however, something I have been curious about since I hopped down the rabbit hole in November. It was Wynne Johnson's video, about this meeting, indeed, about his presence at this meeting, that sucked me in.

I have seen no authorative accounts of the meeting being at the Southland Center aside from Wynne Johnson's. I have read some of AV's interviews and watched some videos, and unless I missed it, he never identified it as being the Southland Center.

I have seen William Kelley state that it was the Southland Center as far back as 2007, but he gives no source. 

Bill White corrected William Kelley on another thread, identifying it as the Southland Cafe, near the police station, and more in line with the testimony of Larry Crafard and George Senator when identifying the cafe they went to on 11-23 with Jack Ruby.

Again, I know it is not necessarily very important, but I am curious. If anyone can share an earlier account, for the location of the LHO/DHP/AV meeting, than the 2014 account of Wynne Johnson, I would really love to hear it.

Cheers,

Michael"

 

 

 

Edited March 21, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Michael Clark]

On February 10, 2017 at 4:21 PM, Andrej Stancak said:

 

I would like to turn the attention of Forum members to a remarkable testimony of Mr. Wynne Johnson. Wynne was 15 years old in 1963, and had a girlfriend Vicki. Vicki and Wynne liked to visit the roof of the Southland Center to view the scenery of Dallas. And so they did on September 7, 1963. As unexpected and unbelievable as only the life can pose, these two children became witnesses of an event which researchers of the President Kennedy assassination consider as a clear and undisputed proof of a direct contact between Oswald and Maurice Bishop alias a CIA asset David Atlee Phillips: their meeting in Dallas in September 1963. Thanks to Gaeton Fonzi’s research, we know that that meeting also included Antonio Veciana, one of the chief representatives of anti-Castro movement in Miami. It was Veciana who told Fonzi and the House Committee about the Bishop-Oswald meeting.

Wynne and Vicki were approaching the Southland Center when a taxi cab passed and a young man, Lee Harvey Oswald, stepped out. Oswald entered the main lobby, met with Phillips and both men started to talk. Shortly, Veciana came in via a different entrance. And while the three men stood together in the lobby, Wynne and Vicki also entered a long corridor and headed towards the three men.

Mr. Wynne Johnson recorded details of their encounter with Oswald, Phillips and Veciana in three video sequences. Wynne followed every possible lead to support his story. More than fifty years which elapsed could have taken its toll on the vividness of Wynne’s memories. However, Mr. Wynne Johnson had the courage to come forward and speak. Mr. Johnson, in my view, is an honest man and seeks neither fame nor money. Wynne also shows a certain type of charming naivety in his approach towards researchers and certain books owing to the fact that he did not research the assassination case for fifty years. This only strengthens Wynne’ testimony in my eyes.

Mr. Wynne Johnson posted his story on YouTube, and this is how I came to it. I decided to suggest Wynne to present his story to the Forum members since his story is also a part of the history of the assassination case, and as such it has to be preserved. I would therefore appreciate if those researchers who disagree or have doubts about this comparatively recent testimony could express their views in a polite way – about the same polite way as it was the custom in old Forum posts from 2005.

Please find here the links to Mr. Wynne Johnson’s YouTube videos:

Southland Center 1963, part 1:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKw_ELuXYj8&t=5s

Southland Center 1963, part 2:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uO1-Ezw6Qkw

Southland Center 1963, part 3:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhxMlnkeFV4

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 

 

I wrote a message to Wynne few weeks ago. I wanted to know what could be the reason for Lee Harvey Oswald to undertake a long trip from New Orleans to Dallas and not to spend any time to converse with Phillips.

This is what Mr. Wynne Johnson wrote back. I am copying the relevant part of his email with Wynne’s approval:

Mr. Wynne Johnson, 9-10/2/2017:

“With a certain qualification, the only people at that end of the lobby arrived in the order: Phillips, Oswald, Veciana, and then, simultaneously, Wynne and Vicki.  Oswald had a very short amount of time with Phillips before Veciana came in.  This is known from Oswald himself in phone conversation with Judyth Vary Baker.  See her book Me & Lee.  I myself know that Phillips and Oswald did not have much time together before Vicki and I came in, but slightly longer than you might think, because Vicki and I came down the long corridor at an exceptionally slow walk. …

It is true that Oswald was supposed to meet with Phillips that day, but Phillips sent him away, back to New Orleans, as soon as the three of them got outside.  We know this both from what Veciana told Fonzi (see his book) and what Lee himself told Judyth.  What they did not know is the probable reason why Phillips changed his mind about talking to Oswald then.  The reason is me.  Phillips suspected that 15-year-old -- in fact, probably both of us 15-year-olds.  I assure you that this actually happened. 

I saw Veciana in person in Miami in October, 2015.  He does not remember the encounter well. We spoke entirely in Spanish.  Although I did not ask him, a good friend of his had told me by e-mail that he did not know English very well in 1963.  Therefore, he could well have been in a kind of foreign-language fog, so that he did not understand what was said and whatever he heard would have become easy to forget.”

 

Andrej, did Veciana confirm, to you, that this was in the Southland Center?

Cheers,

Michael

[Michael Clark]

About 3/4 of the way down on this page is a pic of a different Southland Hotel, at 1200 Main St. This would be the place that Jack White mentioned, adding that Captain Will Fritz lived here. This would jibe closely with Crafard's and Senator's testimony as the place they went to on the morning of 11-23-63.

https://srhistorical.wordpress.com

Edited March 21, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Michael Clark]

Here Bill Kelly says that Gaeton Fonzi said that the meeting happened in the Southland Center

"I met with former Congressional investigator Gaeton Fonzi, and asked him in which building lobby in Dallas did Antonio Vechina meet with his CIA case officer “Maurice Bishop” and find him meeting with Oswald?  Fonzi said, “The Southland Building,”

http://jfkcountercoup2.blogspot.com/2012_05_01_archive.html?m=1

 

[Andrej Stancak]

5 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

Here Bill Kelly says that Gaeton Fonzi said that the meeting happened in the Southland Center

"I met with former Congressional investigator Gaeton Fonzi, and asked him in which building lobby in Dallas did Antonio Vechina meet with his CIA case officer “Maurice Bishop” and find him meeting with Oswald?  Fonzi said, “The Southland Building,”

http://jfkcountercoup2.blogspot.com/2012_05_01_archive.html?m=1

 

Michael:

I found the paragraph in Mr. Kelly's blog essay you refer to:

"Later that very day I met with former Congressional investigator Gaeton Fonzi, and asked him in which building lobby in Dallas did Antonio Vechina meet with his CIA case officer “Maurice Bishop” and find him meeting with Oswald?  Fonzi said, “The Southland Building,” thus presenting another possible destination for the fleeing Oswald, though one that he apparently had a change of mind about before getting there."

 

The idea that Lee originally thought to go where possibly his handler(s) may have been is very interesting indeed.

[Michael Clark]

2 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Michael:

I found the paragraph in Mr. Kelly's blog essay you refer to:

"Later that very day I met with former Congressional investigator Gaeton Fonzi, and asked him in which building lobby in Dallas did Antonio Vechina meet with his CIA case officer “Maurice Bishop” and find him meeting with Oswald?  Fonzi said, “The Southland Building,” thus presenting another possible destination for the fleeing Oswald, though one that he apparently had a change of mind about before getting there."

 

The idea that Lee originally thought to go where possibly his handler(s) may have been is very interesting indeed.

Yes Andrej,

It may be if only notional interest, but because I like Wynne Johnson and his story, I am fascinated that his account may be the only authorative one placing the meeting in the Southland center.

Likewise, and more relevant, is the Main Street Southland Hotel posted above. For a while I was inclined to believe that Ruby, Senator and Crafard had gone to the Southland Center on 11-23. It now looks more like it was the Main St location, where Fritz lived.

Cheers,

Michael

[Michael Clark]

Bump

[Michael Clark]

Wynne Johnson has joined the forum.

Welcome, Wynne!

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/23690-wynne-johnson/#comment-348848

 

[Andrej Stancak]

Welcome to the Forum, Wynne. It is an excellent and rare occasion to have on board the witness of such an important encounter as was the encounter between Phillips, Veciana, and Lee Harvey Oswald. 

 

[Michael Clark]

Bump

[Michael Clark]

C'mon Tommy, help us with this stuff please!

[W. Tracy Parnell]

On ‎3‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 8:58 PM, Michael Clark said:

I have seen William Kelley state that it was the Southland Center as far back as 2007, but he gives no source. 

There is no source, Fonzi thought it was the Southland Center and said this in his book and it has been repeated by others. But Veciana never said this at least not in the 1976 interviews with Fonzi and Dick Russell. We know this because the section on Veciana in HSCA volume X, which was written by Fonzi and based on those interviews, doesn't mention Southland at all. Neither does the article Russell wrote for the Village Voice based on his interview with Veciana that is reprinted in his book On the Trail of the JFK Assassins. So the Southland Center is an invention for whatever reason. I'll have more on this and the whole Maurice Bishop story in an upcoming article series.

[Michael Clark]

12 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

There is no source, Fonzi thought it was the Southland Center and said this in his book and it has been repeated by others. But Veciana never said this at least not in the 1976 interviews with Fonzi and Dick Russell. We know this because the section on Veciana in HSCA volume X, which was written by Fonzi and based on those interviews, doesn't mention Southland at all. Neither does the article Russell wrote for the Village Voice based on his interview with Veciana that is reprinted in his book On the Trail of the JFK Assassins. So the Southland Center is an invention for whatever reason. I'll have more on this and the whole Maurice Bishop story in an upcoming article series.

Agreed, Tracy. I have failed to find any sources for the Southland Center, apart from Wynne's. Thanks for confirming that it is not out there.

Cheers,

Michael

[Chris Newton]

Gaeton Fonzi made it clear in his article in The Washingtonian, November 1980, that Mr. Veciana did not recall the name of the building where he met Bishop "early in September 1963". He clearly asked Mr. Veciana to describe the building and based on Veciana's description which included "a distinctive blue-tile facade", Gaeton deduced that it was the 42 Story Southland Center.

I note that in that article Fonzi also clearly indicates that all three gentlemen left the lobby and walked outside whereupon Oswald went on his own way while Bishop and Veciana walked together to a nearby coffee shop while discussing Alpha 66.

There are numerous, (entirely coincidental, I'm sure), connections to the Southland Hotel and the Southland Center in Ruby's, Oswald's and DeM's files.