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Thomas Graves

Is that ... (Gasp) ... Billy Lovelady Talking With Gloria Calvery on the Steps?

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Baker picked a line based as much on where he was heading as on who he had to dodge. His mind was on pigeons and a rooftop shooter. He did as I would do, and ran to have a look around back before heading in. He knew other cops would be right behind him. No one saw him running up the stairs.

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On 3/4/2017 at 1:03 PM, Michael Clark said:

Baker picked a line based as much on where he was heading as on who he had to dodge. His mind was on pigeons and a rooftop shooter. He did as I would do, and ran to have a look around back before heading in. He knew other cops would be right behind him. No one saw him running up the stairs.

Funny ... there were witnesses who saw Baker run up the stairs and none who said they saw him running to look around the back of the building.

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4 minutes ago, Bill Miller said:

Funny ... there were witnesses who saw Baker run up the stairs and none who said they saw him running to look around the back of the building.

There's lots of funny stuff in this case.

Baker said some funny stuff too.

Edited by Michael Clark

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1 hour ago, Michael Clark said:

There's lots of funny stuff in this case.

Baker said some funny stuff too.

Just thought seeing how people did see him run up the stairs and he was the first through the door with Truly and no one reported seeing him run around the building to look in the back ... that possibly to be first through the door that he actually did run up those steps.

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1 minute ago, Bill Miller said:

Just thought seeing how people did see him run up the stairs and he was the first through the door with Truly and no one reported seeing him run around the building to look in the back ... that possibly to be first through the door that he actually did run up those steps.

Perhaps you can demonstrate with some photo-analysis?

 

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2 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

Perhaps you can demonstrate with some photo-analysis?

I have done that several times. I offered a slow motion clip of Patrolman Baker running by Roy Truly and towards the stairs. Truly said "but as I came back here" when talking about his moving from the intersection to a position closer to the stairs is where this clip picks up. It appears to me that Truly see's Patrolman Baker running by ....... and when the officer goes past him ..... I see Truly immediately turning around and start to move in the direction of the stairs.

Mr. TRULY:  I heard a policeman in this area along here make a remark, "Oh, goddam," or something like that. I just remember that. It wasn't a motorcycle policeman. It was one of the Dallas policeman, I think-- words to that effect.
I wouldn't know him. I just remember there was a policeman standing along in this area about 7, 8, or 10 feet from me.
But as I came back here, and everybody. was screaming and hollering, just moments later-I saw a young motorcycle policeman run up to the building, up the steps to the entrance of our building. He ran right by me.

very%20slow%20darnell%20edited_bm1_zpsiz

Truly continued:  And he was pushing people out of the way. He pushed a number of people out of the way before he got to me. I saw him coming through, I believe. As he ran up the stairway--I mean up the steps, I was almost to the steps, I ran up and caught up with him. I believe I caught up with him inside the lobby of the building, or possibly the front steps. I don't remember that close. But I remember it occurred to me that this man wants on top of the building.

 

There is your film analysis. So what film or photo evidence do you have that Patrolman Baker ran past the stairs so to go look behind the building?  Ok - I don't expect that you know of any, so how about the names of any witnesses who said they saw the Patrolman run past  the stairs on his way to go look behind the building? 

I am thinking you do not have any names either.  So then explain to me how you discount what several independent witnesses saw based on what you think you would do had you of been Patrolman Baker and you wanted to get to the top floors where you believe shots may have come from.

Seems to me that getting inside the building to reach an elevator or stairs to catch people trying to come down from the upper floors would be a logical thing to do. And considering that Patrolman Baker or Roy Truly didn't appear to be concerned that the press was rolling through with their cameras in hand ... it seems unlikely to me that they would have re-written Baker's movements and risk someone filming something to the contrary. But hey - that's just me.

Edited by Bill Miller

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1 minute ago, Bill Miller said:

I have done that several times. I offered a slow motion clip of Patrolman Baker running by Roy Truly and towards the stairs. Truly said "but as I came back here" when talking about his moving from the intersection to a position closer to the stairs is where this clip picks up. It appears to me that Truly is watching Baker run by ....... and when Baker goes past him - I see Truly turning around and starts to move in the direction of the stairs.

Mr. TRULY:  I heard a policeman in this area along here make a remark, "Oh, goddam," or something like that. I just remember that. It wasn't a motorcycle policeman. It was one of the Dallas policeman, I think-- words to that effect.
I wouldn't know him. I just remember there was a policeman standing along in this area about 7, 8, or 10 feet from me.
But as I came back here, and everybody. was screaming and hollering, just moments later-I saw a young motorcycle policeman run up to the building, up the steps to the entrance of our building. He ran right by me.

very%20slow%20darnell%20edited_bm1_zpsiz

Truly continued:  And he was pushing people out of the way. He pushed a number of people out of the way before he got to me. I saw him coming through, I believe. As he ran up the stairway--I mean up the steps, I was almost to the steps, I ran up and caught up with him. I believe I caught up with him inside the lobby of the building, or possibly the front steps. I don't remember that close. But I remember it occurred to me that this man wants on top of the building.

 

There is your film analysis. So what film or photo evidence do you have that Patrolman Baker ran past the stairs so to go look behind the building?  Ok - I don't expect that you know of any, so how about the names of any witnesses who said they saw the Patrolman run past  the stairs on his way to go look behind the building?  I am thinking you do not have any names either.  So then explain to me how you discount what several independent witnesses saw based on what you think you would do had you of been Patrolman Bake and you wanted to get to the top floors where you believe shots may have come from.  Seems to me that getting inside to an elevator or stairs to catch people trying to come down from the upper floors would be a logical thing to do. And considering that Patrolman Baker or Roy Truly didn't appear to be concerned that the press was rolling through with their cameras in hand ... it seems unlikely to me that they would have re-written Baker's movements and risking someone filming something to the contrary. But hey - that's just me.

Good stuff. Thanks.

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On 2/14/2017 at 12:34 AM, Robin Unger said:

As I understand it, Bob Prudhomme's Lovelady is supposedly the person seen against the west wall, just under Prayermans right elbow.

Darnellstabilized2.gif

(edited and bumped 3/24/18)

 

Robin,

 

That's correct.

In some of the un-blurry "frames" of this GIF you can see his white t-shirt under the darker shirt, his eyes and mouth, and hair on the side of his bald forehead.

I believe you can even make out some of the plaid pattern of his shirt.

 

--  TG

 

PS  Also note that Buell Frazier is turning his head to his right and appears to be talking with the person in the corner.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Thomas Graves said:

Is that Lovelady Talking With a Woman (Gloria Calvery?) on the Steps?

FWIW....

According to another TSBD employee, Karen Westbrook, the person whom some people here think is Gloria Calvery (wearing a scarf on her head) can't be Gloria. Westbrook, in the 2017 interview below, says that she and Calvery can be identified just to the left (east) of the Stemmons sign in the Zapruder Film----and Gloria C. was not wearing a scarf. Karen seems pretty positive that the red-headed woman to her left in the Z-Film is Gloria Calvery (although Karen repeatedly refers to her as "Gloria Calvert" [with a T], instead of using her correct last name, Calvery).

 

Karen-Westbrook-In-The-Zapruder-Film.jpg

 

Related Debate:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2017/12/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-121.html

 

 

Edited by David Von Pein

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6 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

FWIW....

According to another TSBD employee, Karen Westbrook, the person whom some people here think is Gloria Calvery (wearing a scarf on her head) can't be Gloria. Westbrook, in the 2017 interview below, says that she and Calvery can be identified just to the left (east) of the Stemmons sign in the Zapruder Film----and Gloria C. was not wearing a scarf. Karen seems pretty positive that the red-headed woman to her left in the Z-Film is Gloria Calvery (although Karen repeatedly refers to her as "Gloria Calvert" [with a T], instead of using her correct last name, Calvery).

 

Karen-Westbrook-In-The-Zapruder-Film.jpg

 

Related Debate:

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2017/12/dvp-vs-dieugenio-part-121.html

 

 



Yes, David, I'm very aware of the Westbrook interview.

Haven't you been following my posts on Calvery, Holt, Jacob, et al.?

By the way, your big yellow arrow isn't pointing to Karen Westbrook (or to Carol Reed, for that matter) in the Z-Frame,, but to Sharron Simmons, one of self-described Native American Stella Mae Jacob's colleagues.

Regarding light-skinned and perhaps red-haired Calvery's location during the motorcade (as well as Westbrook's own), Westbrook-Scranton was seriously mistaken.  As was for so many years and in a different way, Thierry Speth, Don Roberdeau (he finally got it right on his revised map), and Robin Unger. 

Which is totally understandable for Westbrook-Scranton to do, seeing as how her Sixth Floor Museum interview (above) not only was made some fifty-five years after the fact, but that the figures by the Stemmons Sign are not visible from the front, but from the behind.

 

--  TG

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Hi Thomas Graves,

I'm sure you've researched all the TSBD employees a lot more than I have. (I've never really had a huge interest in trying to identify every single person in every film or photo....although, I admit, such an exercise can be rather entertaining at times.)

Now, maybe you're right and Karen Westbrook-Scranton is 100% wrong regarding the identities of the ladies in the Z-Film....but I'm wondering if you have any idea WHY both Stella Jacob and Gloria Jeanne Holt (in their respective and almost identically worded) FBI reports each (apparently) incorrectly told the FBI that they each were standing on the SOUTH side of Elm Street during the motorcade?

I realize that somebody must have made an error when they said "south side" in those reports, because there's not a group of women standing on the SOUTH side of Elm halfway between Houston St. & the Underpass. The mistake must have come from either Jacob and Holt themselves, or (more likely) from the FBI, who no doubt had a lot to do with the identically worded phrases that appear in nearly all of the 73 statements we find in CD706. But I'm just wondering if you, or anyone, knows why the FBI (or Holt or Jacob) would say SOUTH when they so obviously meant to say NORTH?

Also --- How can you be so sure my yellow arrow is pointing to Nelson (nee Simmons) and not Westbrook? How can anybody know with 100% certainty who any of those women are? After all, there's no faces to identify in the Zapruder Film. I would tend to lean more toward Westbrook's own personal identification of (at least) herself in the Z-Film. That's not to say she couldn't have made a mistake too. Maybe she did. There are, after all, several ladies wearing scarves on Elm Street. But Karen's identification comes from a rare source---i.e., somebody who was THERE on 11/22/63 and is attempting to find herself in the Zapruder Film.

Edited by David Von Pein

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1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

Hi Thomas Graves,

I'm sure you've researched all the TSBD employees a lot more than I have. (I've never really had a huge interest in trying to identify every single person in every film or photo....although, I admit, such an exercise can be rather entertaining at times.)

Now, maybe you're right and Karen Westbrook-Scranton is 100% wrong regarding the identities of the ladies in the Z-Film....but I'm wondering if you have any idea WHY both Stella Jacob and Gloria Jeanne Holt (in their respective and almost identically worded) FBI reports each (apparently) told the FBI that they each were standing on the SOUTH side of Elm Street during the motorcade?

I realize that somebody must have made an error when they said "south side" in those reports, because there's not a group of women standing on the SOUTH side of Elm halfway between Houston St. & the Underpass. The mistake must have come from either Jacob and Holt themselves, or (more likely) from the FBI, who no doubt had a lot to do with the identically worded phrases that appear in nearly all of the 73 statements we find in CD706. But I'm just wondering if you, or anyone, knows why the FBI (or Holt or Jacob) would say SOUTH when they so obviously meant to say NORTH?

Also --- How can you be so sure my yellow arrow is pointing to Nelson (nee Simmons) and not Westbrook? How can anybody know with 100% certainty who any of those women are? After all, there's no faces to identify in the Zapruder Film. I would tend to lean more toward Westbrook's own personal identification of (at least) herself in the Z-Film. That's not to say she couldn't have made a mistake too. Maybe she did. There are, after all, several ladies wearing scarves on Elm Street. But Karen's identification comes from a rare source---i.e., somebody who was THERE on 11/22/63.

 

David,

It wasn't only Jacob and Holt that said that, but their colleague Sharron Simmons (Nelson), too.

Since the wording in their three FBI statements is identical (iirc) regarding where they were during the assassination, I would say that maybe they were all three in the interview room at the same time, and the first one to give her statement made that simple, easy-to-make mistake, and the other two women "followed suit."  Either that, or the secretary who typed up their statements, after realizing that they had been together, somehow made that mistake for them.

Regardless, they all said they were standing near Elm Street.  Can you find three women close together on the south side of Elm Street in Zapruder or any of the other films / photographs?

Sandy and I and others went all over this subject about a year ago.

Apparently you missed it.

 

--  TG

 

You do realize that Robin Unger's "Calvary" (sic) in the labeled Z-Frame is dark-complected, don't you?  As is discernable in a "side profile" from the Z-Film of that woman's face, as well as the way she looks in a Darnell clip that was made, a few minutes after the assassination, as she and her two lighter-skinned colleagues were walking back towards the TSBD?

 And you do realize, don't you, that Stella Mae Jacob described herself as a Native American?

Have you seen Gloria Jeanne Holt's high school photos?  (They've disappeared from the Forum.)  If you had, you would already know that Westbrook's "Calvery" is actually Gloria Jenne Holt.

 

Etc.

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Reply to DVP, above.

 

There are some things that women do well, and “get”, that men do not; and  vice versa. Women do not do cardinal points well. I think that has something to do with it. There also may be some confusion with the directions they were facing as opposed to where they were positioned, using cardinal points, in relation to objects, streets and structures.

Edited by Michael Clark

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1 hour ago, Thomas Graves said:

It wasn't only Jacob and Holt that said that ["south side"], but their colleague Sharron [sic] Simmons (Nelson), too.

No, that's not correct. Simmons/Nelson never said "south side" (or north side). Her CD706 statement merely says she was "standing on the sidewalk on Elm Street".

 

Quote

Regardless, they all said they were standing near Elm Street.  Can you find three women close together on the south side of Elm Street in Zapruder or any of the other films / photographs?

No. And in my previous post, I acknowledged the fact that the Holt/Jacob "south side" statements were incorrect:

"I realize that somebody must have made an error when they said "south side" in those reports, because there's not a group of women standing on the SOUTH side of Elm halfway between Houston St. & the Underpass." -- DVP

 

Quote

Sandy and I and others went all over this subject about a year ago.

Apparently you missed it.

Yes, apparently I did. I haven't been following very much of the Calvery/Lovelady/Prayer Man discussions. I just look in on them occasionally.

 

Quote

You do realize that Robin Unger's "Calvary" (sic) in the labeled Z-Frame is dark-complected, don't you?  And you do realize, don't you, that Stella Mae Jacob described herself as a Native American? As is discenable [sic] in a "side profile" from the Z-Film of that woman's face, as well as the way she looks in a Darnell clip that was made a few minutes after the assassination?

None of those things you just mentioned are things that have been "realized" by me at any point in time right up to the present moment. And I doubt that any such "realization" by anyone interested in the events of 11/22/63 really makes much difference--if any--when it comes to the Big Ticket questions relating to the assassination. (Do you?)

 

Quote

Have you seen Gloria Jeanne Holt's high school photos?  (They've disappeared from the Forum.)  If you had, you would already know that Westbrook's "Calvery" is actually Gloria Jenne [sic] Holt.

And you feel confident that you can make such a positive identification of that woman in the Z-Film, even though you can only see her FROM BEHIND, with no facial features available to view whatsoever?

Would you take such an identification to Vegas and bet the farm on it?

Edited by David Von Pein

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23 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

No, that's not correct. Simmons/Nelson never said "south side" (or north side). Her CD706 statement merely says she was "standing on the sidewalk on Elm Street".

 

No. And in my previous post, I acknowledged the fact that the Holt/Jacob "south side" statements were incorrect:

"I realize that somebody must have made an error when they said "south side" in those reports, because there's not a group of women standing on the SOUTH side of Elm halfway between Houston St. & the Underpass." -- DVP

 

Yes, apparently I did. I haven't been following very much of the Calvery/Lovelady/Prayer Man discussions. I just look in on them occasionally.

 

None of those things you just mentioned are thingsd that have been "realized" by me at any point in time right up to the present moment. (And I doubt that any such "realization" by anyone interested in the events of 11/22/63 really makes much difference--if any--when it comes to the Big Ticket questions relating to the assassination. (Do you?)

 

And you feel confident that can make such a positive identification of that woman in the Z-Film, even though you can only see her FROM BEHIND, with no facial features available to view whatsoever?

Would you take such an identification to Vegas and bet the farm on it?

David,

I thought you could read better than that.  Please read my post again.

You've never seen the Darnell clip showing Unger's (or somebody's) "Calvary (sic), Hicks, and Reed" walking back towards the TSBD?

I can no longer find that very short Darnell clip which was viewable on this forum about a year ago, but I can post two frames of it for you here.  Shall I do that for you, David? 

In one of them in particular, you can see that the woman who is labeled Calvary (sic) has a dark complexion and a classic Native American nose.  That's because that woman is not Thierry's and Roberdeau's and Unger's Gloria Calvery, and neither is it Westbrook's "Carol Reed ... maybe," but self-described Native American Stella Mae Jacob, instead.

The high school photos of Gloria Jeanne Holt are no longer on this forum, either.  But at least I had the presence of mind to take a "screen shot" of that Photobucket page when it was here, and if I can figure out how to take that screen shot and downsize it and upload it here, or e-mail it to Sandy for him to do that technical stuff, you will soon be able to see for yourself that Westbrook's "Calvery" was, indeed, Gloria Jeanne Holt.

 

--  TG

Edited by Thomas Graves

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