Did Shelley & Lovelady leave the TSBD steps before Officer Baker's arrival and then return?

[Thomas Graves]

9 minutes ago, Michael Walton said:

I agree. It has to be them. I'd  be shocked if there was a second woman in white especially  one with a white scarf on her head to boot.

Michael,

Do you think the bald-headed-in-the-front guy on the steps whom "Big Tall Girl" is talking to could be (gasp) ... Billy Lovelady?

There seems to be hair on the side of his head, and when I watched a blown-up gif of him there, I thought I could catch a glimpse of his white t-shirt under his dark over-shirt.

What do YOU think?

--  Tommy 

 

 

Edited January 22, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Guest]

For this dead end fairy tale to succeed  you have to dismiss Shelley's first DPD statement, that is the one before he knew Oswald was a cop killer and Lovelady's first FBI report.

You then have to dismiss the Dunckel GIFS and the still enhancement I made of the Couch print from the  Sprague archive in Washington.

You then have to believe Shelley's and Lovelady's WC testimony, where as the 3-4 mins are just utter BS since they would have seen Oswald coming out guzzling on his coke! Oh sure....

Mr. BALL. Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.

Mr. BALL. While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes

Mr. BALL. Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY. It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.

Mr. BALL. She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

That by itself destroys the timing of the 2FLRE already.

This is the same BS that mentions a Vicky Adams encounter that never happened. That same Vicky Adams who is the ONLY ONE who mentions Molina being in front after she has been turned away from the rail road yard. Molina who talks to GC in the vestibule!

 

If you are talking photographic interpretation here then the lady in white is wearing a coat and not a skirt. The coat ends below the knee whereas the skirt is above as seen in Z.

And even if they were the ladies you point out (actually two of the three) what difference does it make? None...........

What is the significance of G.C you ask Tommy., extremely little if you ask me.  

And that’s it from me this whole thing is taking a Fetzerian twist and I got tons to do.

 

Edited February 4, 2018 by Bart Kamp

[Thomas Graves]

On 2/4/2018 at 3:31 AM, Bart Kamp said:

 

   .....

 

If you are talking photographic interpretation here then the lady in white is wearing a coat and not a skirt. The coat ends below the knee whereas the skirt is above as seen in Z.

And even if they were the ladies you point out (actually two of the three) what difference does it make? None...........

   .....

 

 

Bart,

 

With all due respect, Lady In White's skirt ends below her knees in the Z-film.  Regardless, who's to say she wasn't holding a white jacket in her arms in Z-film, and put it on as she was walking towards the steps?

Regarding Lady In Black, please notice in the Z-film that the skirt she's wearing has a bold plaid pattern, with relatively thick horizontal black stripes.  You will also notice that you can only just see a segment of a black stripe like that in her mostly-obscured, grayish-toned skirt in Couch-Darnell.


(montage by Sandy "Genius" Larsen)

--  Tommy 

Edited February 7, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

Bart,

I think you have no idea what my belief is. It is almost the same as yours, and yet you attack me -- erroneously -- from every angle.

 

On 2/4/2018 at 4:31 AM, Bart Kamp said:

For this dead end fairy tale to succeed  you have to dismiss Shelley's first DPD statement, that is the one before he knew Oswald was a cop killer and Lovelady's first FBI report.

 

My belief is supported by Shelley's first DPD statement. Just like yours is.

 

On 2/4/2018 at 4:31 AM, Bart Kamp said:

You then have to dismiss the Dunckel GIFS and the still enhancement I made of the Couch print from the  Sprague archive in Washington.

 

If that's the one showing the two guys walking down Elm Street extension, then yes, I disagree with you on that.

 

On 2/4/2018 at 4:31 AM, Bart Kamp said:

You then have to believe Shelley's and Lovelady's WC testimony, where as the 3-4 mins are just utter BS since they would have seen Oswald coming out guzzling on his coke! Oh sure....

 

I DON'T believe Shelley's and Lovelady's WC testimonies. Just like you don't.

 

On 2/4/2018 at 4:31 AM, Bart Kamp said:

Mr. BALL. Did you see Truly, Mr. Truly and an officer go into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yeah, we saw them right at the front of the building while we were on the island.

Mr. BALL. While you were out there before you walked to the railroad yards?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes

Mr. BALL. Do you have any idea how long it was from the time you heard those three sounds or three noises until you saw Truly and Baker going into the building?

Mr. SHELLEY. It would have to be 3 or 4 minutes I would say because this girl that ran back up there was down near where the car was when the President was hit.

Mr. BALL. She ran back up to the door and you had still remained standing there?

Mr. SHELLEY. Yes.

That by itself destroys the timing of the 2FLRE already.

 

Absolutely.

 

On 2/4/2018 at 4:31 AM, Bart Kamp said:

This is the same BS that mentions a Vicky Adams encounter that never happened. That same Vicky Adams who is the ONLY ONE who mentions Molina being in front after she has been turned away from the rail road yard. Molina who talks to GC in the vestibule!

 

That's right... the Vicky Adams encounter did not happen. That's what I always say and you still think my belief contradicts yours.

 

On 2/4/2018 at 4:31 AM, Bart Kamp said:

 

If you are talking photographic interpretation here then the lady in white is wearing a coat and not a skirt. The coat ends below the knee whereas the skirt is above as seen in Z.

 

In both photos her skirt ends a little below the knees.

What makes you think she is wearing a coat? A coat would cover her figure. And we definitely see her figure as she walks up the steps.

 

On 2/4/2018 at 4:31 AM, Bart Kamp said:

And even if they were the ladies you point out (actually two of the three) what difference does it make? None...........

 

It proves that Shelley and Lovelady lied their heads off in their 1964 statements and WC testimonies.

 

On 2/4/2018 at 4:31 AM, Bart Kamp said:

What is the significance of G.C you ask Tommy., extremely little if you ask me.  

And that’s it from me this whole thing is taking a Fetzerian twist and I got tons to do.

 

It's taking a Fetzerian twist only because you have no idea what my and Tommy Grave's positions are. You're barking up an empty tree and for no reason.

 

 

[Thomas Graves]

On 2/16/2017 at 2:36 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

  .......

From looking at the photographic evidence of Altgens 6, Wiegman Frame and Darnell Frame, and cross referencing it with the 'testimony' of those who said they were on the steps at the time  it's reasonable to say that 10 of them have been identified; Molina, Williams, Dean, Reese, Shelley, Lovelady, Jones, Frazier, Davis and McCully.

Who is left over? Stanton and Sanders

If we look at what each of them said as to where they stood;

Stanton: says she was with Sanders, Shelley, Lovelady and Williams.
Sanders: says she took up a position on the top steps and that Stanton was standing next to her.

*Point of contention: Sanders said she was on the top step at the 'East' entrance!

*A point of interest; Molina: says he stood at the railings on the 'east side' of the building but does not recall who stood beside him but does know that Sanders viewed the motorcade.

As we look at the photographic evidence of the steps, the 'east side' is the right hand side as we look at it, and the 'west side' is the left hand side as we look at it.

Molina was certainly correct about being on the 'east side' as that is backed up by the photographic evidence, Sanders can't be beside him because he mentions her after saying that he does not recall who stood beside him! From the photographic evidence the two people that stood 'beside' him look to be Williams (up left as we look at it) and either Davis or McCully (down right as we look a it). So when Sanders said she was at the 'east' entrance that is not backed up by the photographic evidence...

... what if then, when Sanders said 'east' she actually meant the opposite side from where Molina is. How could she make such an error? Look at a compass, which side is East as you look at it? To the right hand side! What if, then, Sanders, when she said she was on the 'east' side she meant the 'right hand side' (from her perspective - facing out) and thus she was in real terms standing on the 'west side' of the steps.

Sandy,

 

Could "Prayer Man" have been ... gasp ... Sarah Stanton?

Starting at the 34:00 mark in his 2013 Sixth Floor Museum interview (below), Buell Wesley Frazier says that, "before Shelley and Lovelady left the steps to walk towards the Triple Underpass," a "crying woman"  (Gloria Calvery?) "came by and said that the president had been shot."  Frazier then mentions in the interview that he turned towards a "Sarah" and that he and she kind of asked each other what the heck the woman had said.  (At one point he also says that after standing there "for a couple of minutes," he went down to "the first step where Lovelady was standing.")

Now, in a blown-up slow-mo (?) version of Couch-Darnell, you can actually see Frazier turn his head towards "Prayer Man."  

 

Question:  Are Frazier and "Prayer Man" talking to each other in Couch-Darnell? 

If so, couldn't that mean that "Prayer Man" wasn't a man at all, but Frazier's "Sarah"  i.e.,  ... Sarah Stanton?

 

 

--  TG

Edited March 25, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Andrej Stancak]

Tommy:

there were two ladies on the top landing who have been missing for 54 years. They were Mrs. Sarah Stanton and Mrs. Pauline Sanders. One of the ladies was short and was standing very close to the glass door in the eastern part of the doorway.  This lady was not seen in Algens6 because the view of her figure was obstructed by Bill Shelley. She was not seen in in Wiegman film because this film never captured the eastern part of the doorway where she stood. The short lady was not seen in most frames of Darnell because she was behind Mr. Molina who just happened to step down one step and that was the reason for seeing her in one of the final frames of Darnell film. This short lady, according to the testimonies, could be Pauline Sanders.

The other lady who by exclusion was Mrs. Sarah Stanton is seen in Altgens6. Her figure is largely hidden by Billy Lovelady, however, a small bright blob located between the heads of Mr. Lovelady and Mr. Shelley suggests that there was a person in that location in Altgens6. There are faint contours of that lady in the shadow behind Mr. Shelley's right shoulder can be seen in Darnell. The point is that that frame in Darnell shows not only the short lady )Sanders) and this other lady (Stanton) but also Prayer Man. Thus, Prayer man could not be Mrs. Stanton as there were no other ladies besides Stanton and Sanders on the top landing.

You can read details here: https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/   or in the thread on this forum: "Mrs. Sanders, Mrs. Stanton, where are you?"

[Thomas Graves]

4 minutes ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Tommy:

there were two ladies on the top landing who have been missing for 54 years. They were Mrs. Sarah Stanton and Mrs. Pauline Sanders. One of the ladies was short and was standing very close to the glass door in the eastern part of the doorway.  This lady was not seen in Algens6 because the view of her figure was obstructed by Bill Shelley. She was not seen in in Wiegman film because this film never captured the eastern part of the doorway where she stood. The short lady was not seen in most frames of Darnell because she was behind Mr. Molina who just happened to step down one step and that was the reason for seeing her in one of the final frames of Darnell film. This short lady, according to the testimonies, could be Pauline Sanders.

The other lady who by exclusion was Mrs. Sarah Stanton is seen in Altgens6. Her figure is largely hidden by Billy Lovelady, however, a small bright blob located between the heads of Mr. Lovelady and Mr. Shelley suggests that there was a person in that location in Altgens6. There are faint contours of that lady in the shadow behind Mr. Shelley's right shoulder can be seen in Darnell. The point is that that frame in Darnell shows not only the short lady )Sanders) and this other lady (Stanton) but also Prayer Man. Thus, Prayer man could not be Mrs. Stanton as there were no other ladies besides Stanton and Sanders on the top landing.

You can read details here: https://thejfktruthmatters.wordpress.com/   or in the thread on this forum: "Mrs. Sanders, Mrs. Stanton, where are you?"

Andrej,

Did Frazier ever say he saw Oswald on the front steps?

Do you believe him?

If so, who was "Prayer Man"?

--  TG

[Andrej Stancak]

Tommy:

The possibility that some researchers, including myself, pursue  is that Prayer Man was Lee Harvey Oswald. You asked the right question: who was Prayer Man if every of Depository employees' whereabouts is well known and none of them reported to stand in the western part of the doorway,  It is the matter of debate and research to establish the body height of this person which I believe was 5'9''. This body height would qualify this person to be a man. So, we likely have here a Caucasian, a man, measuring exactly as Oswald measured, and displaying a hairline similar to Oswald's hairline. Mr. Frazier, to my knowledge, was not able or willing to say who Prayer Man was, however, he clearly testified something which was not true during his Warren Commission testimony: how can then be trusted in this particular issue? To recall, Mr. Frazier said that he has returned to the Depository and went to the basement soon after the shooting. However, in his later interviews, Mr. Frazier said he actually had seen Oswald walking on the Houston street because he (Mr. Frazier) was in front of the Depository entrance. While Mr. Frazier always spoke nicely about Lee Oswald, all his statements, including those regarding the package Oswald brought to work, were very damning for Lee Harvey Oswald. My point is that Mr. Frazier still covers his role in framing Lee Harvey Oswald and he would not answer the question who Prayer Man was even if it were Lee Harvey Oswald.   

[Thomas Graves]

5 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Tommy:

The possibility that some researchers, including myself, pursue  is that Prayer Man was Lee Harvey Oswald. You asked the right question: who was Prayer Man if every of Depository employees' whereabouts is well known and none of them reported to stand in the western part of the doorway,  It is the matter of debate and research to establish the body height of this person which I believe was 5'9''. This body height would qualify this person to be a man. So, we likely have here a Caucasian, a man, measuring exactly as Oswald measured, and displaying a hairline similar to Oswald's hairline. Mr. Frazier, to my knowledge, was not able or willing to say who Prayer Man was, however, he clearly testified something which was not true during his Warren Commission testimony: how can he then be trusted in this particular issue? To recall, Mr. Frazier said that he had returned to the Depository and went to the basement soon after the shooting. However, in his later interviews, Mr. Frazier said he actually had seen Oswald walking on the Houston street because he (Mr. Frazier) was in front of the Depository entrance. While Mr. Frazier always spoke nicely about Lee Oswald, all his statements, including those regarding the package Oswald brought to work, were very damning for Lee Harvey Oswald. My point is that Mr. Frazier still covers his role in framing Lee Harvey Oswald and he would not answer the question who Prayer Man was even if it were Lee Harvey Oswald.   

 

Andrej,

Frazier said he returned to the Depository from where?  From the front steps, or from somewhere else?

--  TG

[Andrej Stancak]

 

Tommy:

if we can believe Mr. Frazier, he was at a spot from which he could see people coming from the loading area of the Depository building along the Houston street. Apparently, he was on the first step from the bottom and even further down on the sidewalk approaching Houston Street when he allegedly saw Lee Harvey Oswald. This is the transcript of his interview for the Sixth Floor Museum:

"So we stood there for a few minutes, and, and I walked down to the first step, where Billy was standing down there, by myself so I looked around. And it was just total chaos there. And then from there I started to go down to see if I could find Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady, there was so much chaos down there. I said, well, I better go back to work, go back to the steps, so now, and I did, I walked back to the bottom of the steps, and then I walked out to the corner of the building right there where Houston comes up  beside the building. And I was talking to someone, it  was a lady, and I looked to my left, and come walking along the side of the Texas School Book building was Lee Oswald.
Mr. Fagin: walking along this side of the building?
Mr. Frazier: Yes.
Mr. Fagin: Houston Street"

What Mr. Frazier claims in this interview is that he did not return to the Depository and straight into the basement (his Warren Commission testimony) but that he exited the doorway and walked towards Houston Street where he saw Lee Harvey Oswald as he was leaving the Depository building. You have a choice to decide which of Mr. Frazier's two scenarios was correct and true, the one he conferred to the Warren Commission or his later interviews. In the interview for the Sixth Floor Museum, Mr. Frazier also claimed that Lee Harvey Oswald did not bring a lunch to work which contradicts Lee's own statements he made during his interrogations. Mr. Frazier's denial of a lunch sack in Oswald's possession has certainly worsened the things for Lee Harvey Oswald.  

Now, where is any guarantee that Mr. Frazier would truthfully disclose the identity of Prayer Man?

 

 

 

 

Edited March 25, 2018 by Andrej Stancak

[Thomas Graves]

 

 

Being the kind of person who believes in giving credit where credit is due ... 

 

I would like to say that I am currently in communication with Brian Doyle, the researcher who deserves full credit for discovering that the "Running Woman" in Couch-Darnell is Margaret "Peggy" Burney, and who claims that he recently independently confirmed, by speaking on the phone with Gloria Calvery's son, that Gloria Calvery is the tall woman visible above the windshield in Betzner3 (as I posted unbeknownst-to-Brian on the Forum last March), and that Gloria Jean Calvery is the tall woman who is standing directly to the left of John Templin in the Robin Unger-labeled Z-Frame. 

 

Brian Doyle recently referred me to the 2013 Sixth Floor Museum interview of Buell Wesley Frazier that I referenced in an earlier post in which Frazier, starting at the 14:00 mark, talks about a "crying woman (Gloria Calvery?) who came by the steps after the assassination and announced that the president had been shot," and how he (Frazier) had turned to a "Sarah" at that time and confirmed with her that they had heard their disbelieving ears correctly. 

 

Brian Doyle has told me that he believes that Frazier's "Sarah" was none other than TSBD employee Sarah Stanton, and that Sarah Stanton has, therefore, been misidentified by serious researchers as "Prayer Man."

 

--  TG

 

PS  And I must say that ... gulp ... I'm inclined to agree with Brian Doyle on this scenario.

 

 

 

Edited March 26, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Andrej Stancak]

Tommy:

There were only two women on the top landing during and immediately after the shooting: Mrs. Sanders and Mrs. Stanton. Both these two women both can be seen in one and the same frame of Darnell film in the presence of Prayer Man. So, how can Sarah Stanton be Prayer Man?

 Mrs. Stanton did not say that she stood alone in the western part of the doorway where Prayer Man can be seen or did she? 

 Please read the testimonies of the relevant persons and conclude for yourself if anyone gave any indication that Mrs. Stanton had stood in the western corner:

1. Mrs. Sanders: "To the best of my recollection, I was standing on the top step at the east end of the entrance. I recall that while standing there I noticed Mrs. Sarah Stanton standing next to me, but I am unsure as to the others." (3/19/1964). 

This testimony implies that Mrs. Stanton could not be too far from Mrs. Sanders who stood in the east part of the doorway. Thus, Mrs. Stanton could stand at best in the center-east part of the doorway to allow Mrs. Sanders to say that Mrs. Stanton stood next to her.

2. Mrs. Stanton:     “When President John F. Kennedy was shot I was standing on the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository Building with Mr. William Shelley, 126 South Tatum, Dallas, Mr. Otis Williams, 3429 Southwestern, Dallas, Mrs. R.E. Sanders, 4226 Delmar, Dallas, and Billy Lovelady, 7722 Hume Drive, Dallas. (3/18/1064)

This testimony says that Mrs. Stanton stood in a cluster of people seen in the center of the doorway: Williams, Lovelady, Shelley, and Mrs. Sanders (she cannot be seen in Altgens6). Mrs. Stanton does not say that she stood close to the western wall or that Mr. Frazier was her closest neighbour which would be the case should she stand at Prayer Man's location.

3. Mr. Shelley for the Warren Commission:

Mr. SHELLEY – Oh, several people were out there waiting to watch the motorcade and I went out to join them.
Mr. BALL – And who was out there?
Mr. SHELLEY – Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, she’s with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards.
Mr. BALL – You were standing where?
Mr. SHELLEY – Just outside the glass doors there.
Mr. BALL – That would be on the top landing of the entrance?
Mr. SHELLEY – yes.

Mr. Shelley says that Mrs. Stanton stood with them just in front of the glass door, not that she stood alone in the western corner. Mr. Shelley in no case admitted that Mrs. Stanton stood in the western corner of the doorway, away from the group of three people in the center of the doorway.

Billy Lovelady's testimony is equivocal in the sense that it is not entirely clear if Mrs. Stanton stood to his left or to his right, however, in every case he wanted to say that she stood behind him.

So, we have witness testimonies of two ladies and other doorway occupants saying that both ladies stood far away from the western corner of the doorway, and we have a photographic evidence (Darnell frame) showing both ladies in the presence of Prayer Man. Can this be enough data to convince you that Mrs. Stanton was not Prayer Man?

 

Edited March 25, 2018 by Andrej Stancak

[Guest]

Stop it Andrej this lot is starting to foam uncontrollably at their mouths....

[James DiEugenio]

Boy, I'll say.

This is why I tuned out of this whole discussion.  I just come in and check every once in awhile.

Not really glad I did.

[Guest]

You did the right thing Jim, Doyle is slagging you and others off like there is no tomorrow on his Prayer Woman FB page.

Thomas Graves knows his time is up here so he rather behaves like this as a final sendoff.....laughable really.