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James DiEugenio

Marina, the Commission, and Mexico City

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As most people know, according to the Secret Service, Marina Oswald always denied that Oswald went to Mexico, during the entire period she was at the Inn of the Six Flags.  This is memorialized in a long SS report which Harold Weisberg used to deft effect in his book Whitewash 2.

The problem for the WC was that they had to have Oswald in Mexico City since that is the info they were getting from the CIA.  The problem was that Marina denied it, and there was no evidence in Dallas that he had been there. 

So what happens?  Ruth Paine begins to produce evidence that Oswald was in MC.  Then, many months later, PJM produces some also. Wesley Liebeler went batty with that one. He said words to the effect: the FBI could not find this, the Dallas Police could not find this, and now over 8 months later, Priscilla Johnson and Marina do find it?

Marina came around on this issue of course, as she did on almost all matters.  Not only did Oswald go to Mexico, she now said that Oswald left by bus from New Orleans.  The obvious question is:  How did she know for sure that Oswald left by bus?  Because she and Ruth Paine left New Orleans on September 23rd.  Oswald did not leave New Orleans until either late on the 24th, or the morning of the 25th.  And the WC has no idea how he got to Houston. Even Bugliosi had to admit that there is no certainty about how Oswald left New Orleans for Houston. Because there is no bus ticket or receipt in evidence. So the WC cannot tell us how Oswald left New Orleans.  Thanks to Marina, who was in Dallas at the time, they had their witness.  And they kept a straight face while propping her up.

 

 

Edited by James DiEugenio

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The latter day Marina believes her husband was innocent. Has anyone recently asked her whether she stands by her statement that Lee went to Mexico?

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6 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

As most people know, according to the Secret Service, Marina Oswald always denied that Oswald went to Mexico, during the entire period she was at the Inn of the Six Flags.  This is memorialized in a long SS report which Harold Weisberg used to deft effect in his book Whitewash 2.

The problem for the WC was that they had to have Oswald in Mexico City since that is the info they were getting from the CIA.  The problem was that Marina denied it, and there was no evidence in Dallas that he had been there. 

So what happens?  Ruth Paine begins to produce evidence that Oswald was in MC.  Then, many months later, PJM produces some also. Wesley Liebeler went batty with that one. He said words to the effect: the FBI could not find this, the Dallas Police could not find this, and now over 8 months later, Priscilla Johnson and Marina do find it?

Marina came around on this issue of course, as she did on almost all matters.  Not only did Oswald go to Mexico, she now said that Oswald left by bus from New Orleans.  The obvious question is:  How did she know for sure that Oswald left by bus?  Because she and Ruth Paine left New Orleans on September 23rd.  Oswald did not leave New Orleans until either late on the 24th, or the morning of the 25th.  And the WC has no idea how he got to Houston. Even Bugliosi had to admit that there is no certainty about how Oswald left New Orleans for Houston. Because there is no bus ticket or receipt in evidence. So the WC cannot tell us how Oswald left New Orleans.  Thanks to Marina, who was in Dallas the time, they had their witness.  And they kept a straight face while propping her up.

 

 

Dear Jim,

Please enlighten me.

If LHO didn't go to Mexico, how could Marina have known that?  

Because he came by Ruth's house during that period of time?

Thanks,

--  Tommy :sun

PS  You have a typo of omission in your next-to-last sentence.

Edited by Thomas Graves

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If you have not read that Secret Service report, you are missing out.  Its a real find and Weisberg used it well in  Whitewash 2.

They asked her twice about Oswald going to Mexico City, once directly and once indirectly.

When I say indirectly, something about Oswald in Mexico City came on the TV and she anticipated them asking her about it again, and she said no: he never said anything about it. She said she thought he stayed behind to look for work. If not, he would then return to Dallas. Further, according to her, Lee had never been to Mexico. When Ruth came to pick her up on 9/23, there was never any mention of Lee going to Mexico.  She said the same thing to the FBI on 11/29. (Destiny Betrayed, Second Edition, p. 204)

The first trace of physical evidence for Oswald being in Mexico was provided by Ruth Paine on December 4th. She gave the Secret Service a Spanish-English Dictionary, a Rules for Betting card used at a horse race track, six picture postcards depicting Mexican scenery, and a silver bracelet inscribed to Marina.  Even the WC admitted the last proved nothing.  (ibid, p. 203)

In early February Marina signed a deal for 132K with Tex Italia films for the rights to her story.  A project that they would never actually do.  That sum is almost a million dollars today. (ibid, p. 204)

Now, before the WC, as the first witness, she  changed her story.  Oswald told her he was going to Mexico. Further, she backed up the CIA's story: he went there to get a visa to Cuba.  She eventually went overboard and said he was wiling to hijack a plane to get to Cuba--sort of like her saying he was going to kill Nixon also.  (ibid)

 

 

 

Edited by James DiEugenio

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The cloak and dagger approach to CT writing reaches its zenith in the CIA-did-it CT.  

There is no viable comparison between the period when Marina Oswald was taken into secluded custody by the FBI and threatened with deportation, and the period in which the Secret Service and the WC provided Marina with a safe space .

With the FBI she denied everything, as most wives would probably do under those harsh circumstances.  With the WC, Marina finally calmed down, took the oath, and told me truth. 

Ruth Paine always told the truth.   Also, Priscilla Johnson had no reason to lie about anything.   To say otherwise is to spread cloak and dagger nonsense.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo

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Evangelist Trejo preaches that we MUST have faith, as he does, or we're going to perdition.

Because his "house" is BUILT on faith, on things not seen but believed nonetheless.

I prefer my "house" to be built on the rock of EVIDENCE.

And if we don't accept his version of "the truth," than we believe the "evil" CIA-did-it heresy...in his eyes.  There can be no other explanations for "non-believers," in his world.

 

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The Tex Italia story is really interesting if you ask me.

In a real investigation, which we know the WC was not, that whole shell company would have been investigated until it was upside down. 

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7 hours ago, Mark Knight said:

Evangelist Trejo preaches that we MUST have faith, as he does, or we're going to perdition.

Because his "house" is BUILT on faith, on things not seen but believed nonetheless.

I prefer my "house" to be built on the rock of EVIDENCE.

And if we don't accept his version of "the truth," than we believe the "evil" CIA-did-it heresy...in his eyes.  There can be no other explanations for "non-believers," in his world.

Mark,

You demand PROOF from me, for every sentence I write, yet you allow James to say anything he wants without PROOF?

What's up with that?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo

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As we wait for James to come forth with a link to the Secret Service report he likes, in which the Secret Service complained that Marina Oswald did not tell the FBI everything she knew about LHO's trip to Mexico City, we should review the Warren Commission text on the same topic.

Attorney Rankin asked Marina Oswald if she had told the FBI the whole truth about Lee's Mexico trip, and she admitted that she had not.  So, here's Marina Oswald's side of the story -- for a change.  Bear in mind, too, that English was not Marina's first language, and she is speaking through an interpreter here: 

Mr. RANKIN. ...You have had a number of interviews with people from the Secret Service and the FBI, have you not?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I did.

Mr. RANKIN. We have a record of more than 46 such interviews, and I assume you cannot remember the exact number or all that was said in those inter views, is that true?

Mrs. OSWALD. I don't know how many there were.

Mr. RANKIN. As far as you can recall now, do you know of anything that is not true in those interviews that you would like to correct or add to?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I would like to correct some things because not everything was true...It is not...that it wasn't true, but not quite exact...

Mr. RANKIN. When did his Fair Play for Cuba activity occur---before or after he lost his job?

Mrs. OSWALD. After he lost his job. I told him it would be much better if he were working, because when he didn't work he was busy with such foolishness.

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about that?

Mrs. OSWALD. Nothing. And it is at that time that I wrote a letter to Mrs. Paine telling her that Lee was out of work, and they invited me to come and stay with her. And when I left her, I knew that Lee would go to Mexico City. But, of course, I didn't tell Mrs. Paine about it.

Mr. RANKIN. Had he discussed with you the idea of going to Mexico City?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. When did he first discuss that?

Mrs. OSWALD. I think it was in August.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you why he wanted to go to Mexico City?

Mrs. OSWALD. From Mexico City he wanted to go to Cuba -- perhaps through the Russian Embassy in Mexico somehow he would be able to get to Cuba.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say anything about going to Russia by way of Cuba?

Mrs. OSWALD. I know that he said that in the Embassy. But he only said so. I know that he had no intention of going to Russia then.

Mr. RANKIN. How do you know that?

Mrs. OSWALD. He told me. I know Lee fairly well -- well enough from that point of view.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you that he was going to Cuba and send you on to Russia?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, he proposed that after he got to Cuba, that I would go there, too, somehow.  But he also said that after he was in Cuba, and if he might go to Russia, he would let me know in any case.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he discuss Castro and the Cuban Government with you?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes...

Mr. RANKIN. What did he say about Castro to you?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he is a very smart statesman, very useful for his government, and very active.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say to him?

Mrs. OSWALD. I said, "Maybe." It doesn't make any difference to me...

Mr. RANKIN. When your husband talked about going to Mexico City, did he say where he was going to go there, who he would visit?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He said that he would go to the Soviet Embassy and to the Cuban Embassy and would do everything he could in order to get to Cuba.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you where he would stay in Mexico City?

Mrs. OSWALD. In a hotel.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you the name?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, he didn't know where he would stop.

Mr. RANKIN. Was there any discussion about the expense of making the trip?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. But we always lived very modestly, and Lee always had some savings. Therefore, he had the money for it.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he say how much it would cost?

Mrs. OSWALD. He had a little over $100 and he said that that would be sufficient.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he talk about getting you a silver bracelet or any presents before he went?

Mrs. OSWALD. It is perhaps more truth to say that he asked me what I would like and I told him that I would like Mexican silver bracelets. But...when he returned to Irving, from Mexico City, and I saw the bracelet, I was fairly sure that he had bought it in New Orleans and not in Mexico City, because I had seen bracelets like that for sale there...  

Mr. RANKIN. Did he discuss other things that he planned to do in Mexico City, such as see the bullfights or jai alai games or anything of that kind?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, I was already questioned about this game by the FBI, but I never heard of it. But I had asked Lee to buy some Mexican records, but he did not do that.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know how he got to Mexico City?

Mrs. OSWALD. By bus.

Mr. RANKIN. And did he return by bus, also?

Mrs. OSWALD. It seems, yes. Yes, he told me that a round-trip ticket was cheaper than two one-way tickets.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you learn that he had a tourist card to go to Mexico?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. If he had such a card, you didn't know it then?

Mrs. OSWALD. No.

Mr. RANKIN. After he had been to Mexico City, did he come back to Irving or to Dallas?

Mrs. OSWALD. When Lee returned I was already in Irving and he telephoned me. But he told me that he had arrived the night before and had spent the night in Dallas, and called me in the morning...

Mr. RANKIN. Did he come right out to see you then?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you anything about his trip to Mexico City?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he told me that he had visited the two embassies, that he had received nothing, that the people who are there are too much -- too bureaucratic. He said that he has spent the time pretty well. And I had told him that if he doesn't accomplish anything to at least take a good rest. I was hoping that the climate, if nothing else, would be beneficial to him.

Mr. RANKIN. Did you ask him what he did the rest of the time?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, I think he said that he visited a bull fight, that he spent most of his time in museums, and that he did some sightseeing in the city.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you about anyone that he met there?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. He said that he did not like the Mexican girls.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you anything about what happened at the Cuban Embassy, or consulate?

Mrs. OSWALD. No. Only that he had talked to certain people there.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he tell you what people he talked to?

Mrs. OSWALD. He said that he first visited the Soviet Embassy in the hope that having been there first this would make it easier for him at the Cuban Embassy. But there they refused to have anything to do with him.

Mr. RANKIN. And what did he say about the visit to the Cuban Embassy or consulate?

Mrs. OSWALD. It was quite without results.

Mr. RANKIN. Did he complain about the consular or any of the officials of the Cuban Embassy and the way they handled the matter?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, he called them bureaucrats. He said that the Cubans seemed to have a system similar to the Russians---too much red tape before you get through there.

Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything else that he told you about the Mexico City trip that you haven't related?

Mrs. OSWALD. No, that is all that I can remember about it.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you recall how long he was gone on his trip to Mexico City?

Mrs. OSWALD. All of this took approximately 2 weeks, from the time that I left New Orleans, until the time that he returned.

Mr. RANKIN. And from the time he left the United States to go to Mexico City to his return, was that about 7 days?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. He said he was there for about a week.

Mr. RANKIN. When you were asked before about the trip to Mexico, you did not say that you knew anything about it. Do you want to explain to the Commission how that happened?

Mrs. OSWALD. Most of these questions were put to me by the FBI. I do not like them too much. I didn't want to be too sincere with them. Though I was quite sincere and answered most of their questions. They questioned me a great deal, and I was very tired of them, and I thought that, well, whether I knew about it or didn't know about it didn't change matters at all, it didn't help anything, because the fact that Lee had been there was already known, and whether or not I knew about it didn't make any difference.

Mr. RANKIN. Was that the only reason that you did not tell about what you knew of the Mexico. City trip before?

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, because the first time that they asked me I said no, I didn't know anything about it. And in all succeeding discussions I couldn't very well have said I did. There is nothing special in that. It wasn't because this was connected with some sort of secret.
 
Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo

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I don't know what is worse, the fact that Marina said this and the WC let it go by, or the fact that PT posts it with a straight face.

 

Either way, LOL  :lol: 

:o

:shutup

Edited by James DiEugenio

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In a previous post I suggested that Marina Oswald took Ruth Paine's offer to stay with her out of desperation more than any other reason.

I don't think Marina Oswald liked Ruth Paine. But, just a couple of months away from having her second baby and with no offers from anyone else on that level, she took it.

I suggested this as a main reason for her doing so, considering the chaotic moving and stressful life with Lee Oswald.

Ruth Paine was financially stable and was another fairly young mother with young children, so this must have been a better situation for Marina than being on her own and worrying about rent and not enough food at times, and/or living with others who were older and didn't have children.

But I didn't mean to suggest what Marina Oswald was all about in her entire life up until late 1963.

I am not well informed enough to speculate on the broader aspects of Marina.

I just read George Bouhe's WC testimony.

There are so many interesting and even intriguing things mentioned about Marina and Lee in his testimony.

I wasn't aware of how many times Marina needed real help as far back as 1962 and how many times others provided her with this help.

She seemed so miserable back then ( with physical abuse to boot ) and her life up until 11,22,1963 seemed like it was constantly in upheaval.

Just reading about it all in the white Russian community testimony is exhausting and sad.

Bouhe mentioned in his testimony that he was amazed Marina didn't break emotionally during all that time and after 11,22,1963.

He was amazed at her strength to endure through all that.

Bouhe was also amazed at Marina's command of very proper Russian. The kind of Russian educated women spoke.

And later Bouhe even began to suspect that Marina may have been an agent for Russia in some capacity. Bouhe's suspicion in this area shocked me. Throughout 95% of his Marina recollections, he was always very sympathetic to her and her rough life in 1962 and 1963.

Jim Di...did Marina get to keep that $132,000 from that shell company?

Wonder what Marina's thoughts and feelings were upon coming into what to her must have seemed like a lot of financial wealth.

Edited by Joe Bauer

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42 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Ruth Paine was financially stable and was another fairly young mother with young children, so this must have been a better situation for Marina than being on her own and worrying about rent and not enough food at times, and/or living with others who were older and didn't have children.


Marina's WC Testimony:

Mr. RANKIN. Was there any discussion about the expense of making the trip?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes. But we always lived very modestly, and Lee always had some savings. Therefore, he had the money for it
.

Lee probably always had some savings because he was working for he CIA. Even when he was "unemployed" and doing his "foolishness" (as Marina called it) in New Orleans.

I believe that both Lee and Marina were living undercover. As was Ruth Paine.

 

Quote

She seemed so miserable back then ( with physical abuse to boot ) and her life up until 11,22,1963 seemed like it was constantly in upheaval.


Didn't Jim D. point out that the alleged physical abuse has been discredited?

 

Edited by Sandy Larsen

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Could Marina have been sugar coating their real financial situation a bit to perhaps save herself the embarrassment of stating in public that she and Lee were actually very poor and so often dependent on others?  Living frugally to Marina would to most Americans mean at the bottom of the income classes.

And with Lee working then not working and spending his time running around with Ferry and Shaw and passing out leaflets instead of working and making an income, I just don't see this as adequately getting by for Marina and her child. And remember that Ruth Paine just had to state how she was spending quite a bit extra on groceries and other items that Marina and Junie needed and used.

So, frugal Oswald spends $100 he had saved up on a trip to MC ( which ended up being as much a sight-seeing one versus just political )...and he couldn't pass $50 to Ruth Paine to help with expenses for his wife and child?

I respect Jim Di's research on Marina's supposed physical abuse...but there sure seems to be a lot of White Russian testimony otherwise. Almost a consensus?

And don't forget Judyth Vary Baker's claim that Oswald confessed to her that he had physically abused his wife...which appalled her.

I know, I know, nobody believes Judyth Baker.

And again I ask, did Marina get to keep that $132,000?

Regards such, I believe it's not unreasonable to consider the possibility that Marina made a deal for that massive payout to say what someone wanted her to say regards Lee. It would be very hard for a woman who came from such a poor childhood to turn down what would be a million dollars today.

 

Edited by Joe Bauer

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Very few people buy JVB Joe.

 

It was not me who discredited that WR testimony about Oswald being an abuser.  That was Robert Charles Dunne who is not here today.  He went through it all in detail and showed that it was in reality single sourced.  It was a real tour de force.

As per Bouhe, there is a guy who really needed to be investigated himself.  For more than one reason.

But I will say, if I recall, he told the WC it was hard to understand why the USSR let Marina go with a military defector at the same time he left.  In his experience that was very rare.

To my knowledge, she did keep that money.

Is it just a coincidence that her new story on MC closely aligns with what the CIA gave the WC to follow?

Edited by James DiEugenio

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