Marina, the Commission, and Mexico City

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

Tommy,

Having read John Newman's famous book, Oswald and the CIA (1995), I mainly remember that he was trying to guess what was in the Lopez Report, and that his book is full of guesswork -- countless pages of guesswork, and very little solid fact.

After the Lopez Report came out in 2003, I've regarded Newman's book as out of date -- like most of the JFK material of the 1990's.   Just because John Newman said it -- I need a second confirmation.   Newman's guesses were wrong most of the time.

I would hesitate to call Newman's work "history" -- or to try to build scenarios from Newman's work as if it was really solid history.  It's way too much guesswork in my opinion.  Now -- if you have secondary confirmation of these claims, then I'll take a second look.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Dear Paul,

Why are you obsessing on John Newman?

Is he the only author I mentioned in my post?

Did I call his work "history"?

Why don't you just google "lee henry oswald" egerter and see what you come up with?

You might even get lucky and find the CIA document from December 9, 1960.

All the best,

--  Tommy

[Paul Trejo]

40 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Dear Paul,

...Why don't you just google "lee henry oswald" egerter and see what you come up with?

You might even get lucky and find the CIA document from December 9, 1960.

All the best,

--  Tommy

Tommy,

I did Google "Lee Henry Oswald" and I didn't find anything from 1960.

I did, however, find a CIA document from October 16, 1963, issued by CIA agent Winston Scott.   

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/fbi/105-3702/124-10230-10418/html/124-10230-10418_0002a.htm

This is interesting to me.  Anne Goodpasture had said that Scott was "to the right of George Wallace"   

Allen Dulles hired Win Scott specifically to topple Fidel Castro by leading a Counter-Intel group from Mexico, since Scott was fluent in Spanish.  

David Atlee Phillips worked under Win Scott in Mexico, and admired him greatly.  Richard Helms and Desmond FitzGerald promoted Phillips above Scott, IIRC, hoping that he could topple Fidel Castro.  

Phillips then worked with David Morales at JM WAVE in Miami, and with Antonio Veciana and Alpha 66. Toppling Castro was job one.

This is interesting because it shows that Win Scott was not at the highest-levels of CIA command -- and he seems to have grabbed the CIA 201 File with the bogus name, "Lee HENRY Oswald," which Bill Simpich said was entered by the CIA top-command to find the Mole who impersonated Lee Harvey Oswald over the telephone.

Insofar as the top-secret CIA Mole Hunt was using the name "HENRY" to identify the Mole -- then the CIA high-command should have noticed when Win Scott sent out this October 16, 1963 memo using the name "HENRY" about LHO.

Win Scott was also close to William Harvey, I have read.  I have not included William Harvey in my list of CIA rogues, though I am sure that William Harvey would have loved to be on my list.   Yet in 1963 William Harvey was drinking himself to death in Italy.  So, I'll pass on Harvey until I get more data.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 18, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

32 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Tommy,

I did Google "Lee Henry Oswald" and I didn't find anything from 1960.

I did, however, find a CIA document from October 16, 1963, issued by CIA agent Winston Scott.   

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/fbi/105-3702/124-10230-10418/html/124-10230-10418_0002a.htm

This is interesting to me.  Anne Goodpasture had said that Scott was "to the right of George Wallace"   

Allen Dulles hired Win Scott specifically to topple Fidel Castro by leading a Counter-Intel group from Mexico, since Scott was fluent in Spanish.  

David Atlee Phillips worked under Win Scott in Mexico, and admired him greatly.  Richard Helms and Desmond FitzGerald promoted Phillips above Scott, IIRC, hoping that he could topple Fidel Castro.  

Phillips then worked with David Morales at JM WAVE in Miami, and with Antonio Veciana and Alpha 66. Toppling Castro was job one.

This is interesting because it shows that Win Scott was not at the highest-levels of CIA command -- and he seems to have grabbed the CIA 201 File with the bogus name, "Lee HENRY Oswald," which Bill Simpich said was entered by the CIA top-command to find the Mole who impersonated Lee Harvey Oswald over the telephone.

Insofar as the top-secret CIA Mole Hunt was using the name "HENRY" to identify the Mole -- then the CIA high-command should have noticed when Win Scott sent out this October 16, 1963 memo using the name "HENRY" about LHO.

Win Scott was also close to William Harvey, I have read.  I have not included William Harvey in my list of CIA rogues, though I am sure that William Harvey would have loved to be on my list.   Yet in 1963 William Harvey was drinking himself to death in Italy.  So, I'll pass on Harvey until I get more data.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

"Dear Paul,"

Googling "lee henry oswald"[space]egerter    gives about 260 results , some of which even refer to Egerter's 12/09/60 opening of the "Lee Henry Oswald" 201 file!

D'oh

--  Tommy

Edited March 18, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

27 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

"lee henry oswald" [space] egerter    gives "about 260 results" 

Tommy,

The most significant hit of all those Google hits was the Mary Ferrell website entry of Bill Simpich's, State Secret: Wiretapping in Mexico City (2014) Chapter One.

The main purport of that chapter is that Ann Egerter who was the intelligence analyst for James Jesus Angleton in the CIA 201 File office -- the office that "spied on spies."   Angleton was the CIA guy who ran the Mole-Hunts.

It should be astonishing to any JFK researcher that James Jesus-Angleton had no idea which CIA agent had impersonated Lee Harvey Oswald in Mexico City over a telephone.   It should be astonishing that Angleton was so puzzled that he started a Mole Hunt.  Bill Simpich deserves great credit for discovering this in 21st century CIA FOIA releases.

It was Ann Egerter who deliberately changed Oswald's name to "Lee Henry Oswald" in 1960, and she did that deliberately for "mark the card" of his 201 file.   LHO was in the USSR at that time -- so it was a check on anybody who got the data connected with the USSR.

It was also Egerter who deliberately changed Oswald's name to "Lee Henry Oswald" in 1963, again, deliberately, for the CIA Mole Hunt that Bill Simpich ably discovered in 2014.  

The work of Bill Simpich is outstanding.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

18 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Tommy,

The most significant hit of all those Google hits was the Mary Ferrell website entry of Bill Simpich's, State Secret: Wiretapping in Mexico City (2014) Chapter One.

The main purport of that chapter is that Ann Egerter who was the intelligence analyst for James Jesus Angleton in the CIA 201 File office -- the office that "spied on spies."   Angleton was the CIA guy who ran the Mole-Hunts.

It should be astonishing to any JFK researcher that James Jesus-Angleton had no idea which CIA agent had impersonated Lee Harvey Oswald in Mexico City over a telephone.   It should be astonishing that Angleton was so puzzled that he started a Mole Hunt.  Bill Simpich deserves great credit for discovering this in 21st century CIA FOIA releases.

It was Ann Egerter who deliberately changed Oswald's name to "Lee Henry Oswald" in 1960, and she did that deliberately for "mark the card" of his 201 file.   LHO was in the USSR at that time -- so it was a check on anybody who got the data connected with the USSR.

It was also Egerter who deliberately changed Oswald's name to "Lee Henry Oswald" in 1963, again, deliberately, for the CIA Mole Hunt that Bill Simpich ably discovered in 2014.  

The work of Bill Simpich is outstanding.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Isn't that what I've been saying, in so many words?  What in the heck did you think I was saying?

By the way "You're welcome" for my explaining to you how to find that google list of about 260 results, many of which are about Ann Egerter and the "Lee Henry Oswald" 201 file that she opened in December,1960..

Sheesh.

PS  Why are you lecturing me in this post on things I obviously already know?

To show to the world how "intelligent" and "well-informed" you are?

LOL

Edited March 18, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

15 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Isn't that what I've been saying, in so many words?  What in the heck did you think I was saying? 

By the way "You're welcome" for my explaining to you how to find that google list of about 260 results about Egerter and Lee Henry Oswald 1960..

Sheesh.

Tommy,

I actually have no idea what you were trying to say.  You try to be so clever that you speak in riddles deliberately.

If I should thank you for pointing out that Ann Egerter had previously changed Oswald's 201 file so that his middle name said "Henry" in 1960, as she later did in 1963, then, "Thank you."

But what is your point?  

Are you trying to say that the CIA didn't know Oswald's middle name in 1960?   But that's incorrect.

Are you trying to say that the CIA started a Mole Hunt in 1960 to spy on USSR double-agents?   If so, why not come right out and say it?

Yet Bill Simpich didn't say that.  So -- it's a moot point, IMHO.

Also -- it's a digression from the topic under discussion.   The topic here is LHO in Mexico City in 1963.  

More specifically, the topic is the 1963 Mole Hunt started by the CIA high-command to catch the Mole who impersonated LHO in Mexico City over a telephone.

What point are you making by showing that Ann Egerter -- who modified the Oswald's 201 file in 1963, had also modified it in 1960?  I don't see your point.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

2 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Tommy,

I actually have no idea what you were trying to say.  You try to be so clever that you speak in riddles deliberately.

If I should thank you for pointing out that Ann Egerter had previously changed Oswald's 201 file so that his middle name said "Henry" in 1960, as she later did in 1963, then, "Thank you."

But what is your point?  

Are you trying to say that the CIA didn't know Oswald's middle name in 1960?   But that's incorrect.

Are you trying to say that the CIA started a Mole Hunt in 1960 to spy on USSR double-agents?   If so, why not come right out and say it?

Yet Bill Simpich didn't say that.  So -- it's a moot point, IMHO.

Also -- it's a digression from the topic under discussion.   The topic here is LHO in Mexico City in 1963.  

More specifically, the topic is the 1963 Mole Hunt started by the CIA high-command to catch the Mole who impersonated LHO in Mexico City over a telephone.

What point are you making by showing that Ann Egerter -- who modified the Oswald's 201 file in 1963, had also modified it in 1960?  I don't see your point.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

What's your point on this thread?

Edited March 18, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

12 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

What's your point on this thread?

Tommy,

My point in this thread is to show that Bill Simpich (2014) has solved the mystery of Lee Harvey Oswald in Mexico City.

The implication is that James Di Eugenio got it wrong.   Also, John Armstrong got it wrong.   Also, David Josephs got it wrong.

Simple and straightforward.  No riddles.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

2 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Tommy,

My point in this thread is to show that Bill Simpich (2014) has solved the mystery of Lee Harvey Oswald in Mexico City.

The implication is that James Di Eugenio got it wrong.   Also, John Armstrong got it wrong.   Also, David Josephs got it wrong.

Simple and straightforward.  No riddles.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Oh, I thought you were trying to show us how Walker, and Bannister, and David Sanchez Morales killed JFK.

My bad.

--  Tommy

Question:  Why did Egerter decide to "rename him " Lee Henry Oswald," again?  You know, just like she had done three years earlier?

This time, why not call him "Lee Hubert Oswald." or "Lee Horatio Oswald." instead?

Did it somehow help the new mole hunt to you his older mole hunt name?

Edited March 18, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

8 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Oh, I thought you were trying to show us how Walker, and Bannister, and David Sanchez Morales killed JFK.

My bad.

--  Tommy

Tommy,

No need to apologize.   The victory of Bill Simpich in the Mexico City drama of LHO is a strong support of my Walker-did-it CT.

First, David Morales is the CIA Mole who impersonated LHO in Mexico City over a telephone.

Second, David Morales did this to try to link LHO's name with the name of KGB assassin Kostikov.

Third, this was done in the context of LHO bringing his New Orleans resumé -- obtained through 544 Camp Street and the crew working for Guy Banister there -- to Mexico City with him.

In other words -- it was all part of a sheep-dip (to use Jim Garrison's phrase).  Guy Banister framed LHO as an FPCC officer trying to get instant passage into Cuba.  David Morales then framed LHO as a KGB stooge.

LHO was fooled into this scenario -- LHO (like David Atlee Phillips and James Jesus Angleton) believed that LHO was working with Guy Banister to try to whack Fidel Castro.   It would have been very important to them if LHO really did try to contact Kostikov.  Angleton started the Mole Hunt.

THEREFORE -- David Morales was not working on CIA orders with this impersonation of LHO -- he was working on Guy Banister's orders, which had filtered down from General Walker, who was coordinating the Dallas ambush.

That's my CT.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

15 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Oh, I thought you were trying to show us how Walker, and Bannister, and David Sanchez Morales killed JFK.

My bad.

--  Tommy

Question:  Why did Egerter decide to "rename him " Lee Henry Oswald" again?  You know, just like she had done three years earlier?

This time, why not call him "Lee Hubert Oswald." or "Lee Horatio Oswald." or "Lee Humberto Oswald," instead?

In other words, did it somehow help the new mole hunt to recycle (or should I say keep in play?) his older mole hunt name?

Hmmm?

edited and bumped

Edited March 18, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

30 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Question:  Why do you think Egerter decided to "rename" Oswald "Lee Henry Oswald" again?  You know, just like she had done three years earlier?

This time, why not call him "Lee Hubert Oswald," or "Lee Horatio Oswald." or "Lee Humberto Oswald," instead?

In other words, did it somehow help the new mole hunt to recycle (or should I say keep in play?) his older mole hunt name?

Hmmm?

Paul???

Edited March 18, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

34 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Question:  Why did Egerter decide to "rename him " Lee Henry Oswald" again?  

You know, just like she had done three years earlier?

This time, why not call him "Lee Hubert Oswald." or "Lee Horatio Oswald." instead?

Did it somehow help the new mole hunt to you his older mole hunt name?

Tommy,

According to Bill Simpich, it wasn't Ann Egerter who made the decisions about how to change the Oswald 201 File.  

She did what she was told.

James Jesus Angleton told Ann Egerter what to write and what to do.

Why bother inventing a new false middle name for Oswald, when the old false middle name would do just as well?

After all, only the CIA tippy-top command knew about it anyway.

In other words -- it wouldn't matter one way or the other.  So why not do it the easy way?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

Tommy,

According to Bill Simpich, it wasn't Ann Egerter who made the decisions about how to change the Oswald 201 File.  

She did what she was told.

James Jesus Angleton told Ann Egerter what to write and what to do.

Why bother inventing a new false middle name for Oswald, when the old false middle name would do just as well?

After all, only the CIA tippy-top command knew about it anyway.

In other words -- it wouldn't matter one way or the other.  So why not do it the easy way?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Or, .....

Maybe Angleton thought the mole (or someone associated with him) from the first mole hunt might still have (belief-inducing?) documents which he either wasn't supposed to have, or wasn't supposed to forward to anyone else, which documents intentionally called Oswald "Lee Henry Oswald," and Angleton thought that that unknown mole (or someone associated with him) might somehow be involved with the manipulation and impersonation of Oswald in September - October, 1963?

Edited March 18, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Brancato]

Hopeless. Mole hunt refers to what Angleton was doing as early as 1960 and increasingly until he was fired. Trejo keeps calling MC a mole hunt, when mole hunt specifically refers to trying to catch a Soviet agent, not an Oswald impersonator. And despite Trejo's repeated explanations for what Simpich discovered that no one else had, even Simpich distances himself from that, saying a few days ago on this thread or another one that Trejo was going too far by claiming that Simpich believes Trejo's theory, giving credit to Simpich for what is Trejo's invention. Preposterous. I can't even see straight right now after reading this exchange. Tommy is right. Lee Henry Oswald dates from 1960.