What evidence is there that Lee Harvey Oswald beat Marina?

[W. Tracy Parnell]

16 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Therefore Oswald cannot be described as a wife beater, because that designation is reserved for men who hit their wives repeatedly. The only conclusion that can be made is that Oswald likely hit Marina once. I use the word "likely" (rather than "possibly") only because of Marguerite's testimony.

I have an experiment for you Sandy. Go home and hit your wife once and only once. Then have her call the police. When they arrive, tell them you are not a "wife beater" you only hit your wife once. Let me know how it goes.

[Joe Bauer]

I am sure all of us here have enough life experience to know a stressed marital relationship when we see it.

The Oswalds were so stressed in so many ways and especially financially as they had to rely on others for basic needs assistance time and time again, off and on most of their entire time in Texas and even coming to and leaving NO. 

When the only bedding you can provide your baby is an old suitcase - I mean please, that is poor to a pitifully sad degree. That's depression era poor.

It's exhausting just reading about how many financial struggles and stresses Lee and Marina went through in their time here in the states. Of how many times they had to rely on others just to get by.  

With all that embarrassment, humiliation and frustration, one could imagine how emotionally, physically and even spirit exhausting it all was for Marina and Lee.

Those kinds of long term stresses almost always just devastate young marriages, especially if the marriage partners also have deeper neglected or abused childhood born emotional issues themselves like Lee and perhaps Marina too?

People in marriages like this often break down even worse themselves.

They eventually start blaming each other and losing their love and respect for each other. Sometimes they even abuse each other verbally or even physically.  

One of the couple may turn to other persons for emotional needs  ( including intimacy ) reasons. That often is the final straw that breaks the marriage camel's back.

I only mention this common knowledge stuff to explain why it makes perfect sense to believe that Lee Oswald had descended into such a state personally and that he eventually began verbally and physically abusing Marina.  And it seems almost everyone in this debate acknowledges at least some of these abuses on Oswald's part whether they be occasionally over only a few month period or more over a longer period.

The debate seems to be mainly about "the degree" of this behavior on Oswald's part.

And in this context, I find it hard to stay with it and it's suggested importance regarding the White Russians and Lee's possible motivation for exploding into an almost suicidal mission of violence on 11,22,1963 to perhaps release all of his pain onto as many people as he could.

[Michael Clark]

LHO was up to his eyeballs in dirty stuff. If he hit her once, perhaps twice, he may have been trying to avoid worse. He may have been re-appropriated from an operative to a patsy because handlers felt it was too late. The message for Marina was clear once Lee was dead.

From this perspective it might be interesting to note that Jim Garrison was first cued-up to a problem of conspiracy, not 3 years after the fact, but on the afternoon of the assassination by a simple act of physical violence, when Guy Banister pistol-whipped Jack Martin.

Cheers,

Michael

Edited March 3, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Alistair Briggs]

7 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

My point being that we shouldn't even entertain the thought. Not without at least witnesses to the bruises.

I know what you mean.

However, to paraphrase Bishop Berkeley: If a tree fall in a forest and there's no one there to see it...

Anyway, I have started reading Norman Mailer's Oswald's Tale and he does quite a good job of putting the relevant period of time in to a coherent timeline, and he also raises some quite interesting questions...

... one such example was that George Bouhe may have been a homosexual and fancied Oswald. lol (Just for clarification I put the lol there only because it reminded me of the previous thought Paul Trejo has about Frazier having homosexual feelings towards Oswald. lol)

 

 

[Alistair Briggs]

Joe, just wanted to say, your whole comment was a great comment, kudos.

2 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

And in this context, I find it hard to stay with it and it's suggested importance regarding the White Russians and Lee's possible motivation for exploding into an almost suicidal mission of violence on 11,22,1963 to perhaps release all of his pain onto as many people as he could.

Personally, I have never thought there was any great 'correlation' between the two things as it's a huge leap between the two things imo.

[Paul Trejo]

12 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

I am sure all of us here have enough life experience to know a stressed marital relationship when we see it.

The Oswalds were so stressed in so many ways and especially financially as they had to rely on others for basic needs assistance time and time again, off and on most of their entire time in Texas and even coming to and leaving NO. 

When the only bedding you can provide your baby is an old suitcase - I mean please, that is poor to a pitifully sad degree. That's depression era poor.

It's exhausting just reading about how many financial struggles and stresses Lee and Marina went through in their time here in the states. Of how many times they had to rely on others just to get by.  

With all that embarrassment, humiliation and frustration, one could imagine how emotionally, physically and even spirit exhausting it all was for Marina and Lee.

Those kinds of long term stresses almost always just devastate young marriages, especially if the marriage partners also have deeper neglected or abused childhood born emotional issues themselves like Lee and perhaps Marina too?

People in marriages like this often break down even worse themselves.

I only mention this common knowledge stuff to explain why it makes perfect sense to believe that Lee Oswald had descended into such a state personally and that he eventually began verbally and physically abusing Marina.  And it seems almost everyone in this debate acknowledges at least some of these abuses on Oswald's part whether they be occasionally over only a few month period or more over a longer period.

The debate seems to be mainly about "the degree" of this behavior on Oswald's part.

And in this context, I find it hard to stay with it and it's suggested importance regarding the White Russians and Lee's possible motivation for exploding into an almost suicidal mission of violence on 11,22,1963 to perhaps release all of his pain onto as many people as he could.

Joe,

I see no necessary correlation between LHO's massive stress level and the JFK assassination, because LHO had a major outlet in New Orleans.

Jim Garrison proved this, IMHO.

LHO in NOLA got deeply involved at 544 Camp Street.  This was even admitted by the WC.  

Jeff Caufield (2015) showed that the main goal at 544 Camp Street was the assassination of Fidel Castro.

IMHO, the reason LHO went to Mexico City was to get to Cuba to join a team there to whack Fidel.

LHO had only been in Dallas a few weeks, and in late November, LHO was still a member of that Fidel assassination team.

When LHO handed over his rifle on 11/22/1963 , he handed it to another member of that team.

LHO had no clue that he was about to be sold down the river.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 4, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

5 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

(For some reason, if I click on "Quote" by accident, I cannot post anything else in that thread until I submit that accidental post.  Link this one.  I cannot click CANCEL.  This is frustrating.)

Edited March 4, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

On 2/26/2017 at 9:07 AM, Michael Walton said:

Paul - thoughts on Jim DiEugenio.

My thoughts are this - Lee Oswald was a low-level Marine.  Somehow, he got trained to speak Russian, was working on that base in Japan where U-2 flights took place, got involved in intelligence, was sent to Russia on some kind of mission (perhaps to sniff out a mole), got married to a Russian girl after only knowing her for six days, came back easily to the U.S. with his Russian wife - all during one of the hottest periods of the Cold War. Not a peep from the Russian or U.S. governments.

Then he's involved with many people with dubious credentials - the White Russian community, the Paines, and so on.  I mean you have to ask yourself - what are the odds of this happening to a low-level ex-Marine?  But that's the problem.  No one ever seems to ask that because they're too wrapped up in their own theories.  I mean think about it - George DeM, Ruth Paine, and all of the others listed in that PDF I posted earlier.  It goes beyond any reasonable and rational thought for one man to get to know *that many* people tied together into that WR community, as well as someone like the Paines who had CIA connections.

As a comparison, think of Tim McVeigh, who I often like to compare with Oswald. He knew that guy out on his farm to help him build the bomb.  I think he knew one other person in the white supremacist movement, but he really and truly was a loner, the same type of "loner" the WC has always tried to make LHO out to be.

But to have the connections Oswald had - he even knew a person who just so happened to be Ruby's neighbor, for god's sake - it just flies in the face of real-world reality.

Only people with government connections could have pulled this off as well as the cover-up.  We should all know that if the government really and truly was vigorously pursuing the truth of this case, they would have flushed these people out immediately.  But everyone had their marching orders the minute Kennedy was pronounced dead and the K memo pretty much shows what those marching orders were going to be.

Now compare this with your theory - the only thing I'll give you about your theory is yes, there were a lot of people, more than we will ever know, who hated Kennedy with a passion, just like there are people today who hate Trump and hated Obama. But there's no proof that Oswald hated Kennedy and his actions completely fly in the face of your theory of being mixed up with Ed Walker.

As I said, read the PDF and the long laundry list of White Russians he was involved in and the actions they took - Paine and others streering him around to keep him employed and other things and so on.

Meanwhile, there was NO plot to kill John Kennedy in 1960.  It's silly to think that and the reason is simple - the people who were really running the government had every reason to believe he'd "collapse" and do their bidding when they wanted him to.  Like at the BOP and later during the CMC. But they found out he was NOT going to do what they wanted him to do. And then his AU speech about reaching out to Russia and secretly with Cuba was, IMO, the last straw for them. Dulles, even after being fired, was running xxxx from the Farm so is it any surprise that the fox was guarding the hen house when the WC was started?  In my mind, that was the ultimate betrayal to bring him back to the WC and I also think it's one of the most revealing moments as well in this whole mess.

And what was Dulles' quote about JFK after his death? "That Kennedy fellow really thought he was going to run the government."

And I can't emphasize enough what Oswald said in the hallway, his little short and sweet impromptu statement, with no fillers, no scribbled or dubious notes by police officers, but his actual words. "The only reason I'm here is because I lived in Russia. No sir I did not shoot the president.  I'm a patsy." A word that, to be honest, speaks volumes not only because of its meaning but because how could a low-level "nobody" even know the meaning of that word?  As a comparison, do you think Lovelady or Frazier or any of the other blue collars he worked with - or even my Dad who also worked on the shipping docks 1,000 miles a way from Dallas - would even know the meaning of that word?

And then just take that word and tie it all together with the above, the W Russian people he was tangled up with, the handing out of leaflets in NO, his TV interview in NO (you can almost see his slight smile as he's telling his beliefs in that interview), and so on.

Michael,

Thanks for your thoughts on the works of James Di Eugenio which go back perhaps a quarter century.

It seems you have been persuaded by many of the CTKA arguments posed in Probe Magazine in the 1990's.   I used to enjoy reading Probe -- until I didn't.

In contrast to those views, here are my recent views:

(1) Lee Oswald was a bright youth who never had a chance to go to college.  His cousin Marilyn Murret said that as a child Lee would read Encyclopedias the way other people would read novels. 

(2) Lee Oswald taught himself to speak Russian in 1959 at the El Toro Marine base in California.  His pal, Nelson Delgado says that Lee also learned to speak some Spanish during that same year -- and Nelson would know, since he spoke Spanish fluently, and would help Oswald study.  Lee used Berlitz training materials for these language lessons.

(3) Fellow Marine Kerry Thornley, an educated man and a writer, said that Lee Oswald was very bright -- among the few who could carry on a conversation with him.

(4)  While it is possible that Oswald did join an ONI training mission in the USSR, a "dangle" mission as former CIA agent Victor Marchetti called it, it appears that Oswald quit that program prematurely when Marina Oswald convinced him to move back to the USA and take her.   In that case, it is no surprise that his Marine discharge would be downgraded to "undesirable."   Marchetti added that a "dangle" mission is a low-level trainee mission, which involved almost no sensitive information.  The trainee would not know the names of the other ~20 "dangles" on the mission, or even what the ultimately goal was, or the procedure.  A "dangles" job was to report only when a given person came into his town.  No reason cited.

(5) Lee knew lots of girls in the USSR, and proposed marriage to Ella before he met Marina.  Ella turned him down.  But 19-year old Marina wanted to go to the USA so bad she could taste it.   Marina had a college degree, and was ambitious -- she wanted to live in the USA.

(7)  The US Embassy in the USSR was happy to recover Lee Oswald, and helped him get back to the USA with his wife and baby.  The USSR was happy to get rid of both Lee and Marina, because both of them refused to join the Communist Party.  Lee actively refused USSR citizenship.

(8) There's nothing dubious about the Russian Expatriates in Fort Worth and Dallas.  Their WC testimony is straight-forward.  They all hated both Communists and Fascists.  Only George DM, the Russian baron whose family lost their Estate in the 1917 Russian Revolution, had a checkered past and things to hide. 

(9) The Paines did not belong to that Russian Community, nor did they even know them.   The Russian Community spoke Russian fluently all the time, and all attended the Russian Orthodox Church in Dallas.   Ruth Paine was schooled only in reading and writing Russian, and had almost no conversational skills in Russian.  She really wanted to learn, so she asked one of the Russian professors, who turned her down.  She was a Quaker, and Michael was a Unitarian.  They did not know the De Mohrenschildt's either (despite nutty CTers).

(10) All these odd things happened to his low-level Marine because Lee Oswald was ambitious and insisted on fighting out of his low station in life. 

(11)  Evidently George DM agreed to help the FBI and CIA babysit Oswald to ensure he was really clean -- but George DM could not help meddling in Lee's life.  George DM hated General Walker (as did Volkmar Schmidt) and he pushed Lee to hate General Walker as well.   This is covered in George's manuscript, I'm a Patsy, I'm a Patsy!

(12)  Another reason LHO kept pushing the envelope was because despite his high IQ, his ignorance kept him in low-paying jobs, which he could not stand.  Also, the Russian Expatriates gave Marina Oswald a lot of charity -- and this really made LHO very angry.  So, there was that period in 1962.

(13) Ruth and Michael Paine weren't CIA agents -- they were only rich folks from the East Coast.  Ruth was highly educated, which was almost unknown with Texas women.  She was lonely in Texas.  Then Michael separated from her.   Then she met Marina Oswald at a Dallas engineers party, and Marina was very sweet to her -- very kind and helped Ruth with her Russian conversation.   Ruth wanted Marina for a friend.  Soon, however, Marina began to complain to Ruth, that Lee Oswald was mistreating her, by threatening to send her back to the USSR -- an idea that Marina hated.   Also, said Marina, she was pregnant.  So, Ruth decided she would help her new friend.  Big mistake.

(14)  The Paines did not have CIA connections -- unless you believe the baloney printed by Probe Magazine in the 1990's.  Every single one of the charges made by Probe turns out to be bogus.  I showed this in detail in another thread, and I'm happy to do so again. 

(15) In no way was LHO a loner.  He disliked his family, yes -- and he disliked most of the Russian Expatriates.  (HERE IS THE SCENARIO IN WHICH LEE OSWALD BEAT MARINA FOR FOUR MONTHS IN THEIR RELATIONSHIP -- IT ALL HAD TO DO WITH THE RUSSIAN EXPATRIATES OF DALLAS AND FORT WORTH).  But LHO had friends that Marina never knew about.  (Like Roscoe White, for example).   Also, Lee and Marina both liked George and Jeanne DM.  In New Orleans, as Jim Garrison showed, Lee Oswald had lots of associates at 544 Camp Street.  In no way was Lee Oswald a "loner."  That's merely the Hoover Myth.

(16) There were so many Russian Expatriates in Dallas that it is not really surprising that one of them lived down the block from Jack Ruby.

(17)  The people who killed JFK were not US Government -- they were Dallas Police led by General Walker.  The parking lot behind the Grassy Knoll picket fence was the parking lot of the Sheriff's Department -- which was also right there in Dealey Plaza.

(18) There were two conspiracies -- the conspiracy to kill JFK, and the conspiracy to cover-up.  

(19) The JFK Kill Team wanted to blame the Communists for the murder.  That is why they framed LHO as a Communist in New Orleans under Guy Banister (as Jim Garrison showed).  

(20) The JFK Cover-up Team wanted to shut down the JFK Kill Team.  That is why they invented the fiction of the "Lone Nut" LHO who was neither a Communist Party member nor an authentic officer of the FPCC.  Even J. Edgar Hoover said this.

(21) J. Edgar Hoover won.  The JFK Kill Team did kill JFK, but they failed to get their ultimate goal -- to blame the Communists and invade Cuba to kill Fidel Castro as well.

(22)  The laundry list against the White Russians of Dallas was worn out with Probe Magazine in the 1990's.   It's nonsense.

(23) Instead, take the time to read all of their WC testimony.  It's hundreds of pages, but the Truth is there.  Probe Magazine had fantasy.

(24) I agree with you 100% that there was NO plot to kill John Kennedy in 1960.  It's silly.   That whole "Harvey and Lee" science fiction fantasy is beyond laughable. 

(25) I have no doubt that JFK had many enemies in Washington DC -- but what politician doesn't?

(26) I absolutely agree that Lee Oswald was a Patsy, and never shot anything from the 6th floor TSBD.

(27) Jim Garrison almost solved the JFK assassination when he pinpointed 544 Camp Street and Guy Banister's Team.  Sadly, Jim Garrison was blocked from extending his investigation to Dallas.  Dallas was the actual center of the JFK plot.  Guy Banister was a second-string leader.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

Edited March 4, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Michael Walton]

Thanks Paul.  Some of your ideas do parallel Jim D's theories which is fine.  To be honest, I did not read Probe when it was published.  Not because I didn't want to but because I just did not know about it. Obviously, the internet opens the world for folks - for better or for worst - and that's how I started learning more and more about the assassination because everything I wanted to read about it was right there on my computer screen. The problem with that, though, is sifting through the craziness and plausible stuff.

I basically like to keep my thoughts on the murder plausible and real-world.  Meaning - and I've said this numerous times - not everything was a conspiracy in this case.  Such things as painting in blobs on the Z film, 67% of the frames of the Z film being removed, Jackie did it, the guy standing on the Dealey Plaza steps holding a gun in his hand and all of the other craziness.  But I digress because one person's craziness is another person's zealotry in pursuit of the truth.

So with that said, Jim's writings and others like Jim Douglass, just seem to make the most sense to me. Yes, I do agree with you that Oswald was probably a smart guy.  Where you and I (and you and Jim and others) will diverge is *how* Oswald was used leading up to 11/22.

[Sandy Larsen]

On 3/3/2017 at 9:11 AM, W. Tracy Parnell said:

On 3/2/2017 at 4:14 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

Therefore Oswald cannot be described as a wife beater, because that designation is reserved for men who hit their wives repeatedly. The only conclusion that can be made is that Oswald likely hit Marina once. I use the word "likely" (rather than "possibly") only because of Marguerite's testimony.

I have an experiment for you Sandy. Go home and hit your wife once and only once. Then have her call the police. When they arrive, tell them you are not a "wife beater" you only hit your wife once. Let me know how it goes.

 

wife beat·er

ˈwīfˌbēdər/

noun

USinformal

noun: wife beater; plural noun: wife beaters; noun: wifebeater; plural noun: wifebeaters

1. 1.

   a man who regularly or habitually hits his wife or female partner.

   "my second husband turned out to be a wife beater"
2. 2.

   USinformal

   a sleeveless undershirt.

   "I put on some shorts and a wife beater"

Edited March 4, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[W. Tracy Parnell]

Yes Sandy,your dictionary definition of "wife beater" is correct. My point is that in the eyes of the law, if you strike your wife you are a wife beater and will be charged with assault, even if you only hit your wife once. The cavalier attitude toward domestic violence of the individuals who are defending LHO in this thread surprises me, especially in this day and age.

[Paul Brancato]

I don't agree that anyone here has a cavalier attitude towards spousal abuse.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

12 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

I don't agree that anyone here has a cavalier attitude towards spousal abuse.

Some do. If not why are all of these people defending LHO when, by any "normal" standard, there is no defense? Just say OK, he hit her but that is not proof of the murder of JFK, which is a valid position. But the evidence against him concerning abuse of Marina  is overwhelming including an eyewitness. How do they deal with that? They either say they simply don't believe Kleinlerer or he has some secret agenda so "poof" it goes away.

Some are saying "he only hit her once" or "she ran into a doorknob" or some such nonsense. If that is not minimizing, I don't know the definition of the word. CTs want to be taken seriously (by the media etc.) but yet they can't understand why they are not. Take your evidence of a JFK conspiracy to any respected journalist. Then, when the subject of LHO's abuse of Marina comes up tell them that "he only hit her once" or whatever excuse you want to use. Then see if they think you are a credible person at that point. As an example, I'll bet Morley wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole.

[Michael Clark]

13 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Some do. If not why are all of these people defending LHO when, by any "normal" standard, there is no defense? Just say OK, he hit her but that is not proof of the murder of JFK, which is a valid position. But the evidence against him concerning abuse of Marina  is overwhelming including an eyewitness. How do they deal with that? They either say they simply don't believe Kleinlerer or he has some secret agenda so "poof" it goes away.

Some are saying "he only hit her once" or "she ran into a doorknob" or some such nonsense. If that is not minimizing, I don't know the definition of the word. CTs want to be taken seriously (by the media etc.) but yet they can't understand why they are not. Take your evidence of a JFK conspiracy to any respected journalist. Then, when the subject of LHO's abuse of Marina comes up tell them that "he only hit her once" or whatever excuse you want to use. Then see if they think you are a credible person at that point. As an example, I'll bet Morley wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole.

It does get sketchy Mr. P. Bottom line is the stakes are high. If he didn't kill the president, then someone else did. Whether he is a wife beater or not has nothing to do with whether he killed the president. Whether he is a wife beater or not should have no bearing on whether the bad guys get away with it not. It's ultimately a diversion set-up by the bad guys.

Cheers,

Michael

[W. Tracy Parnell]

40 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

It does get sketchy Mr. P. Bottom line is the stakes are high. If he didn't kill the president, then someone else did. Whether he is a wife beater or not has nothing to do with whether he killed the president. Whether he is a wife beater or not should have no bearing on whether the bad guys get away with it not. It's ultimately a diversion set-up by the bad guys.

Cheers,

Michael

But the "stakes" don't justify a visit to an alternate universe. I will agree to this extent that just because he beat her it doesn't prove he was a murderer.