What evidence is there that Lee Harvey Oswald beat Marina?

[Sandy Larsen]

In his book "Portrait of the Assassin," Gerald Ford admitted the following:

"The Texas officials slipped into the nation's capital with complete anonymity. The met with Lee Rankin and other member of the staff and told what they knew. The information was that Lee Harvey Oswald was actually hired by the FBI; that he was assigned the undercover-agent number 179; that he was on the FBI payroll at two hundred dollars a month starting in September 1962 and that he was still on their payroll the day he was apprehended in the Texas Theatre after having gunned down Officer J.D. Tippit! The officials returned to Dallas after their visit on Friday, January 24. Their presence in Washington was unknown to the press or the public."

$200 in 1962 is $1600 today. No wonder Lee complained about all the gifts Marina was getting, saying that they didn't need them.

It.s interesting that he began informing for the FBI on almost precisely the same day Marina's face got bruised. Just a coincidence, I imagine. But it's odd because marital problems and abuse usually occur during lean financial times.

[Joe Bauer]

Sandy, if Oswald was getting two hundred dollars a month ( which you say was equivalent to $1,600 today and this on top of his earnings when he worked ) from the FBI, why would he allow his baby daughter June to have no better bed than an old suitcase?

The white Russians bought the Oswald's a basic child's bed for June.

There seems to have been many other examples like this of unprovided basic needs from Marina's teeth to clothing.

If Oswald had enough earning monies to provide for these ( and $1,600 a month certainly would ) and instead held back using his monies for them, are we to believe that he did so out of simple tight-fisted selfish frugality?

If so, it borders on sadistic.

And if he could provide these basics including rent for pregnant Marina and baby June, why would he go along with allowing Ruth Paine to take his wife and baby from him and going through the humiliation of having to inform Ruth Paine of his visits to Marina for permission to do so?

Just asking what to me are basic logic questions.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Joe Bauer

[Sandy Larsen]

13 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Sandy, if Oswald was getting two hundred dollars a month ( which you say was equivalent to $1,600 today and this on top of his earnings when he worked ) from the FBI, why would he allow his baby daughter June to have no better bed than an old suitcase?

First off, are you sure she slept in a suitcase?

Second, there is nothing wrong with a tiny baby sleeping in a box or suitcase as long as it is made safe (need to remove the top) and is comfortable. Am I the only one here who grew up in a poor family? We weren't neglected... we just didn't have luxuries. My dad built what most other families bought. We learned to make do with what we had.

Third, from what I've seen Oswald's front was that of a poor person.

And fourth, the FBI job started not long before Marina started living with the White Russian women. Had Lee even received his first check yet?

The white Russians bought the Oswald's a basic child's bed for June.

Yes, and Lee was upset about it. He said because they didn't need the stuff that was being given to Marina. Maybe because he was receiving checks by then.

There seems to have been many other examples like this of unprovided basic needs from Marina's teeth to clothing.

Marina's teeth were already bad long before she married Lee. Teeth don't go bad to the point of needing removal in just a year or two.

And, again, the $200 per month didn't start coming in till the fall of 1962.

If Oswald had enough earning monies to provide for these (and $1,600 a month certainly would ) and instead held back using his monies for them, are we to believe that he did so out of simple tight-fisted selfish frugality?

Your timing is off. And $1600 isn't enough to live on... Lee would still need another income.

If so, it borders on sadistic.

Sadistic? I'm glad you didn't live around my family when we were growing up, to judge my dad the way you're judging Lee.

The baby was born in February, and Lee was making a steady income by fall. That's not bad. (He had other jobs too.)

And if he could provide these basics including rent for pregnant Marina and baby June, why would he go along with allowing Ruth Paine to take his wife and baby from him and have to go through the humiliation of having to inform Ruth Paine of his visits to Marina for permission to do so?

You are seeing everything at face value. Do you also believe that Ruth really got that TSBD job for Oswald? Oswald was a CIA asset. Ruth Paine a CIA asset. They were taking orders from their handlers. Who knows where real life ended and charade began in their lives.

Just asking what to me are basic logic questions.

Life is hard for people working under cover. That is what Lee chose. I can't blame Marina if she wanted out.

 

[Paul Trejo]

On 3/5/2017 at 7:42 PM, Michael Clark said:

No one is making LHO out to be a choir-boy. That is a fact. Your statement to the contrary is incorrect and is insulting to those at whom your assertion was directed.

MIchael,

OK, not a choir boy.   But the evidence is strong, IMHO, that during one four-month period in Fort Worth (and one day in Dallas) LHO did beat Marina Oswald.  

There is no realistic way to imagine that these 19 witnesses all decided to lie about Lee Harvey Oswald.   There is no motive.  One has to make stuff up in order to promote that nonsense.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

On 3/8/2017 at 4:39 PM, James DiEugenio said:

BTW, if you follow this and read between the lines,  its not at all suggestive to say that DeMohrenschildt, and his pals are building a legend for Oswald.   That of a chronically unemployed wife abuser who, every once in awhile, takes a walk in the park with his daughter.

 And when doing so fires his rifle into the sky to kill some birds.

James,

You really need to make stuff up to imagine that DeMohrenschildt and the Russian Expatriates in Fort Worth in Dallas "conspired" to portray LHO as a wife-beater.

Why in the world?   As they repeatedly said -- even if he was, that doesn't make him a JFK Killer.

There is no motive.  There is no means.   How would anybody coordinate 19 free citizens to lie?    It makes no sense.

The logical alternative is that all these Russian Expatriates told the TRUTH.

The dirty secret that George DM had to hide was that he encouraged LHO to hate and despise General Walker.  In a very real sense, George DM was responsible for the Walker shooting.   He and Volkmar Schmidt.  (See the YouTube, Frontline Special, "Who was Lee Harvey Oswald," and start at minute 54, watching for 4 minutes.)

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Michael Walton]

Putting this here. According to those here who are taking the literal words of the WRC folks about wife beating, she must have had feelings for him:

[Paul Trejo]

On 3/10/2017 at 3:49 PM, Michael Walton said:

Putting this here. According to those here who are taking the literal words of the WRC folks about wife beating, she must have had feelings for him:

Michael,

It's a great topic.  Did Marina have feelings for LHO?   She doesn't today -- and she cites the beatings as part of the reason.

However, Marina Oswald was a deep person.  Her grandmother raised her to be an aristocratic lady (and she spoke flawless Russian, said her admirers in Fort Worth) but the Communist Party raised her to be an apartment dwelling, bathroom-sharing, kitchen-sharing nobody. 

Many of the Russian Expatriates in Texas commented on this aspect -- that Marina Oswald would have done anything to get out of the USSR -- she hated it so much.  So, an American Marine who wanted to marry her was a great find.  She grabbed and hung on tight. 

Remember, however, that she was only 18 years old at the time.

I have no doubt that Marina Oswald loved Lee Harvey Oswald very much at one time.  No doubt at all.   For one thing, Lee never beat Marina in Russia.  They had a very close and warm relationship in Russia.  The only thing was that Marina wanted to move to the USA, and Lee had many doubts about it.

Think of it -- Lee won Marina's heart partly because he (1) had a steady job; (2) had extra income from the Red Cross; (3) never gave up his US passport; (4) never joined the Communist Party in Russia; (5) lived in the new apartments in Minsk, with his own bathroom.  In the eyes of Marina Oswald, Lee was well-to-do and wise about money.

Yet Lee knew better.  Things were easy for Lee in the USSR where a job was guaranteed for all -- and where American Marines had nice places to stay (probably because the USSR wanted to keep an eye on him, though).   But back in the USA, good old Lee Oswald never held a single steady job in his WHOLE LIFE.

Lee worried about that, but Marina probably encouraged him.  They were going to be great in the USA.

Lee then began to dream about it -- and he thought maybe his Russian Memoirs would be a best-seller in the USA, like the travel memoirs of Ernest Hemingway.

So -- Lee bit the bullet and made the decision to come back home.  He had a beautiful Russian bride.  She was still a teenager, but she had a college degree (in pharmacology).  And now they had a baby.  It would be great to show his new baby to his mother and his two brothers.  Lee had finally come of age!

So -- when they were young -- especially in Russia, I believe that Lee and Marina were very close; young and in love; and had many beautiful dreams about life in the USA.

The reality of hard competition for jobs in the USA would ravage Lee Harvey Oswald like a hail storm.  He wasn't ready.

What really bothered Marina was not the poverty -- and not even the beatings, as she testified to the WC.   What really bothered Marina was when Lee went off the deep end and tried to kill General Walker.  This was like a break with reality.  It was now the Twilight Zone for Marina.  As she honestly said -- things were never the same between Lee and her after the Walker shooting in April 1963.

It only went downhill from there.   In New Orleans Lee worked only 12 weeks, and was 12 weeks unemployed.  He got into trouble with the police, and then got on the radio and then on TV pretending to be an officer of the FPCC in New Orleans.  Marina knew that there was no such FPCC branch in new Orleans, and that Lee was the only member.  

Marina was beside herself with anxiety because by September 1963 she was eight months pregnant, had no health insurance, no money, and Lee had no job.   Marina was desperate, and so she cried out in panic for Ruth Paine to come and rescue her.   Like the Quaker angel she was, Ruth Paine came to Marina's rescue.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 13, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Jeff Carter]

hello - I was Jim's lurker. I had researched this topic 18 months ago for an article. In my opinion, Oswald was not physically violent with Marina, although they frequently quarrelled verbally. 

The so-called "19 witnesses" are largely repeating gossip and hearsay. Marina's bruising could have resulted from swelling from her abscessed tooth. Marina's claim that LHO was beating her occurred as she also claimed he had employment problems (which was not the case). Jeanne DeMohrenschildt told the Warren Commission that attempts were made, in that time period, to find somewhere for Marina to stay,separate from LHO,  for 2-3 months. Stories of unemployment and spousal abuse served as pretext in the effort to get someone to take Marina in.

The single eyewitness to alleged abuse - Kleinerer - provided his affidavit very late in the Commission's work, late June 1964. He takes every possible opportunity to make LHO into a jerk. There is no corroboration for the events he describes.

There is a big difference in considering the separations of Lee and Marina in autumn of 1962 as the result of spousal abuse, or considering it as a preconceived (if only partly successful) plan relying on false pretexts.

[Michael Walton]

Jeff Carter,

I agree with you.  I'm not buying into anything anyone says about Oswald simply because he was dead.  The Bad Guys had to prop up the Oswald was the lone nut assassin story and what better way to fit everything together neatly was to make him look like crazy Commie with a mean streak. It's easy to create fiction about a dead man. 

By the way are you the author of the essay on the fake backyard photos?  I'm reading that now and you did a great job.

Edited March 11, 2017 by Michael Walton

[Paul Trejo]

On ‎3‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 7:27 PM, Jeff Carter said:

hello - I was Jim's lurker. I had researched this topic 18 months ago for an article. In my opinion, Oswald was not physically violent with Marina, although they frequently quarrelled verbally. 

The so-called "19 witnesses" are largely repeating gossip and hearsay. Marina's bruising could have resulted from swelling from her abscessed tooth. Marina's claim that LHO was beating her occurred as she also claimed he had employment problems (which was not the case). Jeanne DeMohrenschildt told the Warren Commission that attempts were made, in that time period, to find somewhere for Marina to stay,separate from LHO,  for 2-3 months. Stories of unemployment and spousal abuse served as pretext in the effort to get someone to take Marina in.

The single eyewitness to alleged abuse - Kleinerer - provided his affidavit very late in the Commission's work, late June 1964. He takes every possible opportunity to make LHO into a jerk. There is no corroboration for the events he describes.

There is a big difference in considering the separations of Lee and Marina in autumn of 1962 as the result of spousal abuse, or considering it as a preconceived (if only partly successful) plan relying on false pretexts.

Jeff,

1. What reasons do you offer to claim that Marina Oswald lied about the beatings?

2. Among the "19 witnesses" are 9 witnesses who claimed to have seen the bruises -- not just heard about them.  These 9 include Lee's own mother.  Was that hearsay?

3. The CIA-did-it theory that the CIA wanted "someone to take Marina in" never offers any reason why.  Why would the CIA want someone to "take Marina in?" 

4. Kleinlerer had no reason to lie about LHO that I can see.  What reason do you offer for his blunt, eye-witness testimony of LHO slapping Marina -- hard -- twice?

5. George De Mohrenschildt testified to the WC that he personally separated Lee and Marina because of the beatings.   He suggests that the beatings were due to jealousy over the actions of George Bouhe, who showered Marina with gifts -- "over a hundred dresses" according to Jeanne De Mohrenschildt.  It has already been granted that Lee never beat Marina in the USSR, and never beat Marina in New Orleans.  It was only during this four-month period in 1962, when the Russian Expatriates in Fort Worth and Dallas were showering Marina with gifts that the beatings allegedly occurred.  Lee was poor as a church mouse.  What reasons do we have for doubting that Lee was jealous of George Bouhe?

6.  Is it also your CT, like Jim's written CT, that Ruth Paine was part of the Fort Worth and Dallas Russian Expatriate Community?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 13, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Michael Clark]

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

Jeff,

1. What reasons do you offer to claim that Marina Oswald lied about the beatings?

-Money, salvation, threats of deportation, perhaps?

2. Among the "19 witnesses" are 9 witnesses who claimed to have seen the bruises -- not just heard about them.  These 9 include Lee's own mother.  Was that hearsay?

- better expressed as 19 "witnesses". 

- 9 people saw a bruise. "Bruises" implies multiple injuries and/or multiple occasions.

3. The CIA-did-it theory that the CIA wanted "someone to take Marina in" never offers any reason why.  Why would the CIA want someone to "take Marina in?" 

-This is self evident.., if "someone took Marina in" it is presumed that she needed to be taken in, for whatever reason, Res Pisa loquitur, "the thing speaks" or "it speaks for itself". Any reason that Marina was separated from Lee was manipulated, just as easily by providing no explanation, into the situation where Marina had to be separated from Lee.

Re4. Kleinlerer had no reason to lie about LHO that I can see.  What reason do you offer for his blunt, eye-witness testimony of LHO slapping Marina -- hard -- twice?

-Why did he not testify? For all we know, he signed a blank paper.

5. George De Mohrenschildt testified to the WC that he personally separated Lee and Marina because of the beatings.   He suggests that the beatings were due to jealousy over the actions of George Bouhe, who showered Marina with gifts -- "over a hundred dresses" according to Jeanne De Mohrenschildt.  It has already been granted that Lee never beat Marina in the USSR, and never beat Marina in New Orleans.  It was only during this four-month period in 1962, when the Russian Expatriates in Fort Worth and Dallas were showering Marina with gifts that the beatings allegedly occurred.  Lee was poor as a church mouse.  What reasons do we have for doubting that Lee was jealous of George Bouhe?

-Because we should not trust hearsay testimony from George De M., an unindicted co-conspirator, leveled against a Patsy who was led into a trap by George De M, perhaps?

6.  Is it also your CT, like Jim's written CT, that Ruth Paine was part of the Fort Worth and Dallas Russian Expatriate Community?

-Ruth Paine is not a Russian ex-pat.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Replies in bold, above.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Jeff Carter]

Talk that Lee was beating Marina was often combined with talk that Lee was unemployed, and the latter was not true. Oswald was unemployed for a total of three days in that period, coinciding with his relocation to Oak Cliff.

 

The separation of the Oswalds seems to have been a project of the DeMohrenschildts. Their exact motivation is unclear. George variously claims it is because they are “helpful people”, or because he took a liking to Lee, or because he was trying to help him find work. 

 

Becoming a wife batterer only for a period of a few weeks when such behaviour or tendency does not appear before or afterwards seems a radical change. Gossip about it is limited to the older White Russians. Paul Gregory, the Oswald’s friend that summer, doesn’t indicate any such behaviour. Also, Oswald often exhibits an ability to remain calm and collected - as seen at the US Embassy in Moscow, later at the street altercation in New Orleans, in the Texas Theater, during his interrogations after arrest. Does not seem like a guy who would “snap” over a jealous pique, or feelings of inadequacy. 

 

There is another plausible explanation for why Marina would have facial bruising.

 

Kleinerer goes out of his way to label LHO a jerk and a loser. He allows that he has a deep dislike of Oswald, based on believing he was a communist. Little of what he claims can be corroborated. He claims to be at numerous events, but others hardly mention his presence. His late affidavit was convenient for the WC, who otherwise had little but gossip to satisfy their “unstable prone to violence” Oswald portrait. Kleinerer gave an affidavit to the FBI December 1963, explaining why Oswald had a letterhead tied to him found with his possessions. In it, Kleinerer does not mention being around the Oswalds much at all.

[Paul Trejo]

56 minutes ago, Jeff Carter said:

Talk that Lee was beating Marina was often combined with talk that Lee was unemployed, and the latter was not true. Oswald was unemployed for a total of three days in that period, coinciding with his relocation to Oak Cliff.

 

The separation of the Oswalds seems to have been a project of the DeMohrenschildts. Their exact motivation is unclear. George variously claims it is because they are “helpful people”, or because he took a liking to Lee, or because he was trying to help him find work. 

 

Becoming a wife batterer only for a period of a few weeks when such behaviour or tendency does not appear before or afterwards seems a radical change. Gossip about it is limited to the older White Russians. Paul Gregory, the Oswald’s friend that summer, doesn’t indicate any such behaviour. Also, Oswald often exhibits an ability to remain calm and collected - as seen at the US Embassy in Moscow, later at the street altercation in New Orleans, in the Texas Theater, during his interrogations after arrest. Does not seem like a guy who would “snap” over a jealous pique, or feelings of inadequacy. 

 

There is another plausible explanation for why Marina would have facial bruising.

 

Kleinerer goes out of his way to label LHO a jerk and a loser. He allows that he has a deep dislike of Oswald, based on believing he was a communist. Little of what he claims can be corroborated. He claims to be at numerous events, but others hardly mention his presence. His late affidavit was convenient for the WC, who otherwise had little but gossip to satisfy their “unstable prone to violence” Oswald portrait. Kleinerer gave an affidavit to the FBI December 1963, explaining why Oswald had a letterhead tied to him found with his possessions. In it, Kleinerer does not mention being around the Oswalds much at all.

Jeff,

Your claim that Oswald was unemployed for "three days" in 1962, during the reports of the beatings, is clearly based on the theory that Oswald left his job at Leslie Welding Company on October 8 (and accepted a new job at JCS on October 11).

Yet the supervisor of Leslie Welding says he remembers the time that Oswald quit his position (simply stopped coming to work) was in SEPTEMBER.

Russian Expatriates and their families who helped the Oswalds move from Fort Worth to Dallas speak about Oswald leaving his job in late August or early September. 

What is your evidence that Oswald left his job at Leslie Welding on October 8th?

As for their separation -- in the words of George DeMohrenschildt -- it was to convince LHO to stop beating Marina.   Marina was separated in this way for 2 weeks, and then he went to her and begged for her forgiveness, and she forgave him, and they reunited at their Dallas Elsbeth apartment (where they still fought verbally and smashed glass and windows, and were eventually kicked out to their Neeley Street address down the street).

George was not the only witness to say this.   For one other example, here is Jeanne DeMohrenschildt's reply:

Mr. JENNER. But why did you take Marina from the home?

Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Because he was beating her, and we didn't think it was right. We thought that a separation for them--they will decide whether they really love each other, they cannot live without each other, or they forget about each other. But that was absolutely useless to continue to live the way they were.

Mr. JENNER. ...Your impressions of [Lee Harvey Oswald], what you thought of him.

Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. ...His greatest objection was that people helped them too much, they were showering things on Marina. Marina had a hundred dresses given. to her. The baby had a crib. My daughter didn't have it when I came to the United States, and I didn't have one-hundredth of what Marina had because I didn't know anybody, and I didn't want to know anybody when I came over. I was in such circumstances. So, anyway, he objected to that lavish help, because Marina was throwing it into his face.

There is no other rational explanation for their separation.  To claim that the CIA wanted them separated "for some unknown reason" makes no sense at all.

Mrs. Donald Gibson disliked Alex Kleinlerer, and called him "oily."   Kleinlerer was making moves on Elena Hall when she was briefly divorced (before she re-united with her husband) and people who knew Elena Hall didn't like Alex Kleinlerer.  My point is that Mrs. Donald Gibson is impartial here.

Kleinlerer himself was a Polish Jew whose family had all perished in Nazi concentration camps.  He may have been a gloomy person, yet he didn't like to see bullies beat on women, so he confronted Oswald about it, and Mrs. Don Gibson walked in on this confrontation, and was "afraid there was going to be a fight."  She heard Kleinlerer condemn Oswald for beating Marina.

She also heard Oswald tell Kleinlerer that it was "none of his business."   Oswald didn't deny it -- he just said it was none of Kleinlerer's business -- according to Mrs. Donald Gibson.   So, we do have corroboration.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 13, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

3 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

1. What reasons do you offer to claim that Marina Oswald lied about the beatings?

-Money, salvation, threats of deportation, perhaps?

2. Among the "19 witnesses" are 9 witnesses who claimed to have seen the bruises -- not just heard about them.  These 9 include Lee's own mother.  Was that hearsay?

- better expressed as 19 "witnesses". 

- 9 people saw a bruise. "Bruises" implies multiple injuries and/or multiple occasions.

3. The CIA-did-it theory that the CIA wanted "someone to take Marina in" never offers any reason why.  Why would the CIA want someone to "take Marina in?" 

-This is self evident.., if "someone took Marina in" it is presumed that she needed to be taken in, for whatever reason, Res Pisa loquitur, "the thing speaks" or "it speaks for itself". Any reason that Marina was separated from Lee was manipulated, just as easily by providing no explanation, into the situation where Marina had to be separated from Lee.

Re4. Kleinlerer had no reason to lie about LHO that I can see.  What reason do you offer for his blunt, eye-witness testimony of LHO slapping Marina -- hard -- twice?

-Why did he not testify? For all we know, he signed a blank paper.

5. George De Mohrenschildt testified to the WC that he personally separated Lee and Marina because of the beatings.   He suggests that the beatings were due to jealousy over the actions of George Bouhe, who showered Marina with gifts -- "over a hundred dresses" according to Jeanne De Mohrenschildt.  It has already been granted that Lee never beat Marina in the USSR, and never beat Marina in New Orleans.  It was only during this four-month period in 1962, when the Russian Expatriates in Fort Worth and Dallas were showering Marina with gifts that the beatings allegedly occurred.  Lee was poor as a church mouse.  What reasons do we have for doubting that Lee was jealous of George Bouhe?

-Because we should not trust hearsay testimony from George De M., an unindicted co-conspirator, leveled against a Patsy who was led into a trap by George De M, perhaps?

6.  Is it also your CT, like Jim's written CT, that Ruth Paine was part of the Fort Worth and Dallas Russian Expatriate Community?

-Ruth Paine is not a Russian ex-pat.

Replies in bold above.

Michael,

I just realized that your answers were ironic mockeries of James Di Eugenio, because these are all his ridiculous answers from Probe magazine.

6.  You got one question right, Michael.   Ruth Paine was an American Quaker from the East Coast.  Please inform James Di Eugenio.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 13, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Jeff Carter]

Oswald's last day at Leslie Welding was October 8, 1963. This can be verified by the address provided to forward the final cheque: PO Box 2915 in Dallas, which Oswald activated on October 9.

 

Mrs Donald Hall (Alexandra Taylor)did not witness physical abuse but overheard gossip. She says she saw Kleinerer confront Oswald - but whether this was because Kleinerer actually saw Oswald slapping Marina or had simply been privy to the same gossip depends, I suppose, on the level of scepticism one applies to his late affidavit.