Jump to content
The Education Forum

What evidence is there that Lee Harvey Oswald beat Marina?


Sandy Larsen

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 318
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

33 minutes ago, Dawn Meredith said:

Waiting for Trejo's response to RCD.  :)

Dawn,

You've seen it.  RCD willfully placed his hands over his ears and sang, "la la la" so that the TRUTH of the sworn testimony of these WC witnesses didn't sink in.

We have nine witnesses who saw bruises on Marina's face.

How do YOU explain that?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Michael Clark said:
4 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Most WC testimonies are truthful.  Only the WC testimonies of the JFK conspirators contain overt lies.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Priceless.....


WC testimonies of JFK conspirators?     :o  (Couldn't find a "scratching my head" icon.)

Priceless indeed.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Detailed Summary of Testimony

Witnessed Beating or Confession of Beating

  • Marguerite Oswald: Said that she saw Marina with a black eye one time, and that Marina admitted that Lee hit her. And that Lee admitted the same with these words, "that is our affair."
     
  • Alexander Kleinlerer: Claimed to have seen Lee slap Marina twice in the face. In his affidavit he goes on and on about how despicable a person Oswald was, and how everybody in the White Russian community disliked him. Also he badly he mistreated Marina. He has nothing good to say about Lee.

    This testimony is so extreme that it is difficult to believe without some corroboration.... 

Sandy,

You keep overlooking the testimony of Mrs. Don Gibson that I have recommended as a corroboration of the affidavit of Alexander Kleinlerer.  Here is the actual text:

Mrs. GIBSON. No; and I wouldn't say there was a tremendous amount of love lost between them.

Mr. JENNER. Between Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. GIBSON. That is right. They quarreled quite a lot.

Mr. JENNER. Would you tell us about this lack of rapport between Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mrs. GIBSON. Well, they fought quite a bit. They fought in Russian, always verbally when I saw them, but when she was living with Mrs. Hall in Fort Worth, I was told that he beat her up on numerous occasions, physically assaulted her, and that Mrs. Hall and her, oh, I don't know what you would call him, her fiance, Alex --

Mr. JENNER. Is that Alex, Alexander Kleinlerer?

Mrs. GIBSON. I guess so. I don't know his name.

Mr. JENNER. Describe him to us.

Mrs. GIBSON. He was short, very dark, moustache, black moustache, European dresser, an accent...He spoke Russian fluently. I think he spoke quite a few languages fluently...But he did not get along with Lee at all. He had numerous arguments with him over Marina and how he beat her.

Mr. JENNER. Did any of this occur in your presence?

Mrs. GIBSON. This occurred in Mrs. Hall's home in Fort Worth.  And my husband; we were both present.  Mrs. Hall and Marina were in the other room. Lee and Alex, and he was telling Lee off in no uncertain terms about how he beat up Marina, and about his whole outlook on life. He was really giving him a tongue lashing.

Mr. JENNER. And what response did he obtain from Lee?

Mrs. GIBSON. Very sullen, very sharp answers. In fact I thought there was going to be a fight there for a minute.

Mr. JENNER. Did Lee deny at that time in your presence, these accusations being uttered by Alexander Kleinlerer?

Mrs. GIBSON. He said it was none of his business.

Mr. JENNER. But he didn't deny that he had done this?

Mrs. GIBSON. No.

Mr. JENNER. He just said it was none of Kleinlerer's business?

Mrs. GIBSON. That is right.

So, we have this memory from Mrs. Don Gibson.  She was not an eye-witness, but she was an ear-witness.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:


WC testimonies of JFK conspirators?     :o  (Couldn't find a "scratching my head" icon.)

Priceless indeed.

Sandy,

In my CT, the key JFK conspirators actually testified for the WC -- but of course they mostly accused the Communists of killing JFK, or changed the topic to Jack Ruby. 

My main suspects are General Walker, Robert Alan Surrey, Dallas FBI agents James Hosty and James Bookhout, Dallas SS agent Forrest Sorrels, Deputy Buddy Walthers, Captain Will Fritz, DPD Chief Jesse Curry, Dallas Postmaster Harry Holmes, Dallas Sheriff Bill Decker, and sundry other DPD officers and deputies.

All these people testified for the WC.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I've discovered that George de Mohrenschildt's testimony cannot be trusted. He took an incident completely unrelated to him, made himself a key player, and fabricated a dramatic story around it!

Mrs. Meller testified that Marina had gone to a filling station and called her on the phone, saying that she was leaving Lee and wanted to stay with her. Mrs. Meller told her to take a taxi to her place and that she could stay there for a while.

In contrast, George de Mohrenschildt testified that he skipped his usual tennis game and went to the Oswald residence instead, because of Lee's abuse. He forcibly removed Marina against Lee's wishes, with Lee making threats against him. He then drove Marina to the Meller residence. (You really should read de Mohrenschildt's story, below. It's incredible.)

IMO there is nothing in de Mohrenschildt's testimony that can be trusted. It should be thrown out altogether...

Sandy,

That's a hasty action.

George DeMohrenschildt certainly had skeletons in the closet, and things to hide from the public view.  However, you are picking out a simple case of errant memory from De Mohrenschildt, and throwing out the whole batch of this testimony for that.

It's a simple mistake.

Marina Oswald was moved back and forth between so many Russian Expatriates at the end of 1962 and the beginning of 1963 that anybody would lose track of them.  Anybody would lose count of the times.  Anybody would lose track of the specific sequence, and who moved who when, and who was there.  There was just too much of it.

Helping Lee Harvey Oswald was a good deed never left unpunished.  It always turned into a nightmare.

You will never find out what George DeMohrenschildt was hiding if you throw out his entire WC testimony because he failed to remember which moving date in which he actually helped, or the sequence of a long series (months and months) of events of Oswald drama.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
typos
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Sandy,

In my CT, the key JFK conspirators actually testified for the WC -- but of course they mostly accused the Communists of killing JFK, or changed the topic to Jack Ruby. 

My main suspects are General Walker, Robert Alan Surrey, Dallas FBI agents James Hosty and James Bookhout, Dallas SS agent Forrest Sorrels, Deputy Buddy Walthers, Captain Will Fritz, DPD Chief Jesse Curry, Dallas Postmaster Harry Holmes, Dallas Sheriff Bill Decker, and sundry other DPD officers and deputies.

All these people testified for the WC.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo


Aaaah... okay. You're not losing your mind after all! That's good to know.  :P

I take back my :o and apologize for having issued it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Paul Trejo said:

Sandy,

That's a hasty action.

George DeMohrenschildt certainly had skeletons in the closet, and things to hide from the public view.  However, you are picking out a simple case of errant memory from De Mohrenschildt, and throwing out the whole batch of this testimony for that.

It's a simple mistake.

Marina Oswald was moved back and forth between so many Russian Expatriate at the end of 1962 and the beginning of 1963 that anybody would lose track of them.  Anybody would lose count of the times.  Anybody would lose track of the specific sequence, and who moved who when, and who was there.  There was just too much of it.

Helping Lee Harvey Oswald was a good deed never left unpunished.  It always turned into a nightmare.

You will never find out what George DeMohrenschildt was hiding if you throw out his entire WC testimony because he failed to remember which moving date he actually helped, or the sequence of a long series (months and months) of events of Oswald drama.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo


Paul,

De Mohrenschildt's wasn't a simple mistake.... it was a complete fabrication of a whole story, complete with theatrics!

I'm not saying that that means EVERYTHING he says is a fabrication. What I am saying is that what he did demonstrates that his testimony cannot be trusted. Anything we read in his testimony might be true, or might be fabrication.

I don't think you need his testimony anyway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:


Alistair,

What is you source for Marguerite seeing the bruises in October?

The only time reference I could see in her testimony is that, after describing the bruise incident, she finishes up by saying something like, "then they moved to Dallas." Oswald moved from Ft. Worth to Dallas on October 9. So all I can figure is that she saw the bruises some time before October 9.

 

Yeah, sorry I wasn't overly clear in the comment from which you qouted; my earlier comment on the topic is more clear as to the time;

Quote

Is it possible to know when and where that happened? I had a look to see what I could come up with and some time between Mid September and early October 1962 at Mercedes Street Fort Worth is what I deduced but I really don't know...

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Paul,

De Mohrenschildt's wasn't a simple mistake.... it was a complete fabrication of a whole story, complete with theatrics!

I'm not saying that that means EVERYTHING he says is a fabrication. What I am saying is that what he did demonstrates that his testimony cannot be trusted. Anything we read in his testimony might be true, or might be fabrication.

I don't think you need his testimony anyway.

Sandy,

In my view, George De Mohrenschildt is one of the most important eye-witnesses of the behavior of Lee Harvey Oswald.   His WC testimony is crucial.

Remember that George DM testified both to the WC, and also in his HSCA manuscript, that LHO was completely innocent of the JFK shooting.

I completely accept George DM's opinion.  It was shared by Jeanne DM. 

Nevertheless, George DM was also convinced that LHO was the shooter at General Walker.

Now -- most JFK researchers are Either/Or thinkers.   They agree with the WC nonsense that if LHO shot at Walker, then he must have shot at JFK.  Conversely, since LHO didn't shoot at JFK, then he cannot have shot at General Walker.

George DM breaks through the barrier.  For George DM, we must recognize that LHO was a wife beater who tried to kill General Walker, but absolutely did not shoot at JFK.

That is the correct solution to the JFK assassination.  Only the details need to be worked out.

Marina Oswald also said the same.  She was certain that LHO shot at Walker -- because he confessed this to her. 

Yet Marina Oswald was also certain that if LHO had anything to do with in the JFK shooting, he was certainly not alone in that.  That was also Ruth Paine's position.  That was also Robert Oswald's position.  That was also Marguerite Oswald's position.  That was also Michael Paine's position.   That is also my position.

CONCLUSION:  We absolutely need the testimony of George De Mohrenschildt.  It will take a lot of unpacking.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Paul,

with the utmost of respect I can't find that in his WC testimony at all...

Alistair,

Here's one bit from near the end of his first WC testimony.  This will give the clue to more.  I will respond further tonight when I have more time.

Mr. JENNER. Now, you say in that letter, after expressing your sympathies to Mrs. Auchincloss, and your very kind comments about Mrs. Kennedy, "I do hope that Marina and her children (I understand she has two now) will not suffer too badly throughout their lives...Somehow, I still have a lingering doubt, notwithstanding all the evidence, of Oswald's guilt."

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly.

Mr. JENNER. Now, please explain that remark in that letter.

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Unless the man is guilty, I will not be his judge unless he is proven to be guilty by the court, I will not be his judge, and there will be always a doubt in my mind, and throughout my testimony I explained sufficiently why I have those doubts. And mainly because he did not have any permanent animosity for President Kennedy. That is why I have the doubts.

That is only a part of his testimony in question.   There is more.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sandy - you must be mixing me with someone else.

Here you go Sandy:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/23307-muchmore-film-split-into-8-gifs/&page=2#comment-340173

After finding the above, it made me realize even more how "interesting" your keen analytical skills are about a guy who's clapping (according to you he's not) and no pistol (according to you, there is).

Paul - The challenge for the JFK researcher is to identify exactly where the lies reside. You have not done that.  You seem to be content to dismiss the whole WC as 100% lies. That is an amateur approach.

Well, that's it, folks.  Time to put the research books away.  Computers and keyboards? Psshhh, just throw em in the trash. Paul Trejo has all of the answers. Every single one of them. Every single statement, word, and bit of testimony in the WR is as good as gold.  No questions asked, says Paul.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/27/2017 at 5:06 PM, Michael Walton said:


Oh yeah, LOL.  Thanks for the laugh... again!

Tell me... if it was so obvious "to everyone" that the guy was clapping -- as you claim -- then why were you the only one arguing against me and Bill regarding that? Got that, chuckles? You were the only one who thought the guy was clapping!

But look everyone, decide for yourselves, is this guy clapping?  Jumping jacks, maybe, but certainly not clapping. :P

 

 

 

Edited by Sandy Larsen
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

Well, that's it, folks.  Time to put the research books away.  Computers and keyboards? Psshhh, just throw em in the trash. Paul Trejo has all of the answers. Every single one of them. Every single statement, word, and bit of testimony in the WR is as good as gold.  No questions asked, says Paul.

Michael,

I never said any such thing -- and you know it.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...