What evidence is there that Lee Harvey Oswald beat Marina?

[Sandy Larsen]

Here is a timeline that I built as I was reading the WC testimonies of those who witnessed Marina's bruised face.

In parentheses are the names of the witnesses who provided the information. In blue are comments about the bruises. In red are notes to myself.

This list is in chronological order. The dates provided by witnesses are, of course, approximate.

Timeline

Marina Meets Elena Hall
July 1962     (Mrs. Hall)
Mrs Hall:  "black and blue over half of her face"
Mr. Hall:  "heard that he beat her up one time"  (He heard that later, in October.)
Note: Bouhe brought Marina to Elena's house. Elena didn't ask about the bruise.
Note: Perhaps this really occurred in latter half of August. Because even Elena's ride, Bouhe, didn't mention this.

White Russian Group Visits Marina
Early September 1962     (Bouhe)
At Oswalds' home on Mercedes St., Fort Worth     (Bouhe, Mrs.Meller)
There were several people present .     (Bouhe, "group" according to Mrs. Meller))
Mr. Bouhe:   "black eye"
Mrs. Meller:  "terrible blue spot over her eye."  "Under her eye was [blue] and over here [pointing].")
Marina tells Bouhe that Lee hit her. (Probably not true.)     (Bouhe)
Marina tells Mrs. Meller that she bumped into door when feeding baby at night.     (Mrs. Meller)
Lee wasn't present.     (Bouhe, Mrs.Meller)

The Oswalds Attend a Luncheon Party
Late August  1962     (Mrs. Ford)
At the Meller home.     (Mrs. Ford, Mr. Ford)
Mrs. Ford:  "bruises on her face"
Mr. Ford:    "[bruises] on her face"
Marina says she bumped into door when feeding baby at night.     (Mrs. Ford)
Note: The Fords met the Oswalds after the luncheon.     (Mrs. Ford)

Marina Moves in with Elena Hall
October 1962     (Elena Hall, John R. Hall, Max E. Clark)
Marina tells Elena  that Lee hit her back when they first met.     (Elena Hall)

Marina Leaves Lee and Moves in with the Mellers
Early November 1962
Marina ran to gas station and called Mellers. Then stayed at Meller's house.     (Mrs. Meller)
Bouhe lied, claiming black eye. (His testimony conflicts with Meller's.)
George de Mohrenschildt lied, claiming he took Marina to Meller's. (His testimony conflicts with Meller's.)
Marina said Lee beating her.     (Bouhe, Mrs. Meller)
Stayed for about a week.     (Bouhe)

Marina Moves in with the Fords
November 11-18, 1962     (WC Counsel)
Marina said Lee beating her.     (Mrs. Ford)
Stayed for about a week.     (Mrs. Meller)

Marina Moves in with Frank & Valentina (Anna) Ray
Late November 1962     (Mrs. Meller)
Stays just for dinner. Not overnight.     (Mrs. Ford)
Lee begs her to come home. She agrees.     (Mrs. Ford)

Marina Goes Back to Lee
Late November 1962     (Mrs. Ford)

Edited March 6, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Michael Clark]

On 2/25/2017 at 10:11 AM, James DiEugenio said:

BTW, isn't it interesting that the one instance where a witness said he saw Oswald slap his wife, that one was recorded in an FBI affidavit, the witness did not testify before the commission, or in a deposition before a counsel. 

And he added he got the feeling of "play acting".

Edited March 6, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Paul Trejo]

37 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

And, am I correct that Mr. Kleinlerer actually gave an affidavit, and the Comission didn't see fit to actually have him testify, even though he lived in or near Dallas?

Cheers, 

Michael

Michael,

Yes, correct.   Kleinlerer gave an affidavit to that effect, and the WC didn't ask him to testify.

Yet what would be the point?   As Tracy ably noted -- whether LHO ever beat Marina or not really has NOTHING to do with the JFK assassination.  Not in the slightest.

My only reason for dallying with the topic is to show up those CTers who wildly insist -- for no good reason -- that LHO never, ever beat Marina at any time -- in the face of overwhelming evidence that he did.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 6, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

25 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Here is a timeline that I built as I was reading the WC testimonies of those who witnessed Marina's bruised face.

In parentheses are the names of the witnesses who provided the information. In blue are comments about the bruises. In red are notes to myself.

This list is in chronological order. The dates provided by witnesses are, of course, approximate.

Timeline

Marina Meets Elena Hall
July 1962     (Mrs. Hall)
Mrs Hall:  "black and blue over half of her face"
Mr. Hall:  "heard that he beat her up one time"  (He heard that later, in October.)
Note: Bouhe brought Marina to Elena's house. Elena didn't ask about the bruise.
Note: Perhaps this really occurred in latter half of August. Because even Elena's ride, Bouhe, didn't mention this.

White Russian Group Visits Marina
Early September 1962     (Bouhe)
At Oswalds' home on Mercedes St., Fort Worth     (Bouhe, Mrs.Meller)
There were several people present .     (Bouhe, "group" according to Mrs. Meller))
Mr. Bouhe:   "black eye"
Mrs. Meller:  "terrible blue spot over her eye."  "Under her eye was [blue] and over here [pointing].")
Marina tells Bouhe that Lee hit her. (Probably not true.)     (Bouhe)
Marina tells Mrs. Meller that she bumped into door when feeding baby at night.     (Mrs. Meller)
Lee wasn't present.     (Bouhe, Mrs.Meller)

The Oswalds Attend a Luncheon Party
Late August  1962     (Mrs. Ford)
At the Meller home.     (Mrs. Ford, Mr. Ford)
Mrs. Ford:  "bruises on her face"
Mr. Ford:    "[bruises] on her face"
Marina says she bumped into door when feeding baby at night.     (Mrs. Ford)
Note: The Fords met the Oswalds after the luncheon.     (Mrs. Ford)

Marina Moves in with Elena Hall
October 1962     (Elena Hall, John R. Hall, Max E. Clark)
Marina tells Elena  that Lee hit her back when they first met.     (Elena Hall)

Marina Leaves Lee and Moves in with the Mellers
Early November 1962
Marina ran to gas station and called Mellers. Then stayed at Meller's house.     (Mrs. Meller)
Bouhe lied, claiming black eye. (His testimony conflicts with Meller's.)
George de Mohrenschildt lied, claiming he took Marina to Meller's. (His testimony conflicts with Meller's.)
Marina said Lee beating her.     (Bouhe, Mrs. Meller)
Stayed for about a week.     (Bouhe)

Marina Moves in with the Fords
November 11-18, 1962     (WC Counsel)
Marina said Lee beating her.     (Mrs. Ford)
Stayed for about a week.     (Mrs. Meller)

Marina Moves in with Frank & Valentina (Anna) Ray
Late November 1962     (Mrs. Meller)
Stays just for dinner. Not overnight.     (Mrs. Ford)
Lee begs her to come home. She agrees.     (Mrs. Ford)

Marina Goes Back to Lee
Late November 1962     (Mrs. Ford)

Sandy,

You've omitted two of the most important witnesses to the bruises on Marina's face:

(1) Marguerite Oswald, and her detailed testimony; and

(2) Marina Oswald herself, and her detailed testimony.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 6, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Michael Clark]

14 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Michael,

Yes, correct.   Kleinlerer gave an affidavit to that effect, and the WC didn't ask him to testify.

Literally -- what would be the point?   As Tracy ably noted -- whether LHO ever beat Marina or not really has NOTHING to do with the JFK assassination.  Not in the slightest.

My only reason for dallying with the topic is to show up those CTers who insist -- for no good reason -- that LHO never beat Marina at any time -- in the face of overwhelming evidence that he did.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul,

That is not what is going on with your postings. You are misrepresenting things that incriminate Oswalds character and saying that you are doing it to make researchers look foolish.

Half-hearted readers see your stuff, and you know it. If they, and we, are fortunate, they will read on and see that your claims are misleading at best; many will not. The best we can do is refute your claims with as little effort and time as possible.

For example, there is a thread waiting for your attention.....

 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Paul Trejo]

29 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

Paul

That is not what is going on with your postings. You are misrepresenting things that incriminate Oswalds character and saying that you are doing it to make researchers look foolish.

Half-hearted readers see your stuff, and you know it. If they, and we, are fortunate, they will read on and see that your claims are misleading at best; many will not. The best we can do is refute your claims with as little effort and time as possible...

Michael,

You are mistaken about my intentions on this Forum.  My only intent here is the TRUTH.   The Truth about LHO shows a man living in intense emotional pain.  To try to make him out to be some innocent choir boy is simple-minded research.

I'm telling the Truth about LHO (and about Marina, and about Ruth Paine, and about the Russian Expatriates, and about General Walker, etc.) and many readers are beginning to see that.   

My claims are never intentionally misleading.  If you think they are, Michael, then make your point with the facts.   Generic accusations are petty.

You speak of time and effort -- yet you forget that I end up answering more challenges than most others, because so many challenges are directed towards me.   So, my time and effort are also wearing thin.

You say you want to refute my claims -- then do it using facts, facts and only facts.   We are all here for the Truth.

Finally, FYI, nobody is under any obligation here to answer all the posts directed toward him or her.   Hundreds of posts come my way.  I don't have time for them all.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 6, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Sandy Larsen]

On 3/5/2017 at 5:45 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

Here is a timeline that I built as I was reading the WC testimonies of those who witnessed Marina's bruised face.

In parentheses are the names of the witnesses who provided the information. In blue are comments about the bruises. In red are notes to myself.

This list is in chronological order. The dates provided by witnesses are, of course, approximate.

Timeline

Marina Meets Elena Hall
July 1962     (Mrs. Hall)
Mrs Hall:  "black and blue over half of her face"
Mr. Hall:  "heard that he beat her up one time"  (He heard that later, in October.)
Note: Bouhe brought Marina to Elena's house. Elena didn't ask about the bruise.
Note: Perhaps this really occurred in latter half of August. Because even Elena's ride, Bouhe, didn't mention this.

White Russian Group Visits Marina
Early September 1962     (Bouhe)
At Oswalds' home on Mercedes St., Fort Worth     (Bouhe, Mrs.Meller)
There were several people present .     (Bouhe, "group" according to Mrs. Meller))
Mr. Bouhe:   "black eye"
Mrs. Meller:  "terrible blue spot over her eye."  "Under her eye was [blue] and over here [pointing].")
Marina tells Bouhe that Lee hit her. (Probably not true.)     (Bouhe)
Marina tells Mrs. Meller that she bumped into door when feeding baby at night.     (Mrs. Meller)
Lee wasn't present.     (Bouhe, Mrs.Meller)

The Oswalds Attend a Luncheon Party
Late August  1962     (Mrs. Ford)
At the Meller home.     (Mrs. Ford, Mr. Ford)
Mrs. Ford:  "bruises on her face"
Mr. Ford:    "[bruises] on her face"
Marina says she bumped into door when feeding baby at night.     (Mrs. Ford)
Note: The Fords met the Oswalds after the luncheon.     (Mrs. Ford)

Marina Moves in with Elena Hall
October 1962     (Elena Hall, John R. Hall, Max E. Clark)
Marina tells Elena  that Lee hit her back when they first met.     (Elena Hall)

Marina Leaves Lee and Moves in with the Mellers
Early November 1962
Marina ran to gas station and called Mellers. Then stayed at Meller's house.     (Mrs. Meller)
Bouhe lied, claiming black eye. (His testimony conflicts with Meller's.)
George de Mohrenschildt lied, claiming he took Marina to Meller's. (His testimony conflicts with Meller's.)
Marina said Lee beating her.     (Bouhe, Mrs. Meller)
Stayed for about a week.     (Bouhe)

Marina Moves in with the Fords
November 11-18, 1962     (WC Counsel)
Marina said Lee beating her.     (Mrs. Ford)
Stayed for about a week.     (Mrs. Meller)

Marina Moves in with Frank & Valentina (Anna) Ray
Late November 1962     (Mrs. Meller)
Stays just for dinner. Not overnight.     (Mrs. Ford)
Lee begs her to come home. She agrees.     (Mrs. Ford)

Marina Goes Back to Lee
Late November 1962     (Mrs. Ford)

Analysis & Conclusions

All the credible witnesses, save one, said they saw the bruise either when they first met Marina, or at Mrs. Meller's luncheon party. These two occasions occurred back-to-back, around the last day of August. So all these witnesses saw the same bruise.

The one person who gave a different date was Elena Hall. She said she saw the bruise in July, when George Bouhe took her over to meet Marina. The problem with this timing is that even Bouhe said that he first time he saw the bruise is when the whole group went over to meet Marina, which was a month later.

My guess is that Bouhe and Elena actually saw the same bruise that the others saw, but a few days earlier. And that rather than saying that he saw the same bruise twice, Bouhe simplified his account and said that he saw it when the whole group did.

Elena describes the bruise as being worse than how the others describe it. This supports the notion that she saw the bruise a few days (or several days?) earlier. The others saw it after it had healed some.

None of the credible witnesses saw a bruise after that. (I haven't checked. But maybe the non-credible witnesses did. If so, that would serve to discredit them further. Because none of the others saw it.)

At the time the group saw the bruise, Marina said that she'd run into a door in the dark when up feeding the baby. She changed her story when she went to live with Elena Hall in October.

Marina left Lee in November and stayed at one place after another, telling each in turn that Lee had beat her. They showered her with clothing, stuff for the baby, etc. Lee objected, saying that they didn't need any of it.

One thing that I noticed is that some of the women thought the fighting was Marina's fault. I didn't delve into that aspect, but I recall that one woman said that Marina would argue about every little thing. (I believe that was Elena Hall.) At least two said Marina was lazy and would sleep all day. I recall that Mrs. de Mohrenschildt told her husband not to be judgmental (about the beating), that they didn't know the whole story. At least two witnesses -- one being Mrs. de Mohrenschildt -- said that they were aware of only one bruise.

All of the witnesses complained that Lee was beating Marina. But they were depending upon her word, and on gossip. George Bouhe seems to have been at the center of the gossip.

The bottom line is that the evidence points to there being one bruise. And that's all.

Marguerite testified before the WC that Marina told her that Lee hit her. And that Lee's response to her was that it was not her business. Which to me sounds like a confession.

Conclusion: Oswald probably hit his wife. Once.

Edited September 3, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

30 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Sandy,

You've omitted two of the most important witnesses to the bruises on Marina's face:

(1) Marguerite Oswald, and her detailed testimony; and

(2) Marina Oswald herself, and her detailed testimony.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

I couldn't find the timing for Marguerite's account. But I've included her testimony in my analysis of the timeline.

As for Marin's testimony, I don't find her to be a credible witness. For example, she testified that she took the backyard photos and that testimony has been completely discredited.

I also didn't include Lee's side of the story.

[Michael Clark]

13 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Michael,

You are mistaken about my intentions on this Forum.  My only intent here is the TRUTH.   The Truth about LHO shows a man living in intense emotional pain.  To try to make him out to be some innocent choir boy is simple-minded research.

I'm telling the Truth about LHO (and about Marina, and about Ruth Paine, and about the Russian Expatriates, and about General Walker, etc.) and many readers are beginning to see that.   

My claims are never intentionally misleading.  If you think they are, Michael, then make your point with the facts.   Generic accusations are petty.

You speak of time and effort -- yet you forget that I end up answering more challenges than most others, because so many challenges are directed towards me.   So, my time and effort are also wearing thin.

You say you want to refute my claims -- then do it using facts, facts and only facts.   We are all here for the Truth.

Finally, FYI, nobody is under any obligation here to answer all the posts directed toward him or her.   Hundreds of posts come my way.  I don't have time for them all.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

No one is making LHO out to be a choir-boy. That is a fact. Your statement to the contrary is incorrect and is insulting to those at whom your assertion was directed.

[Paul Trejo]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I couldn't find the timing for Marguerite's account. But I've included her testimony in my analysis of the timeline.

As for Marin's testimony, I don't find her to be a credible witness. For example, she testified that she took the backyard photos and that testimony has been completely discredited.

I also didn't include Lee's side of the story.

Sandy,

Omitting Marina's testimony shows your own bias.  

It's impossible to include Lee's side of the story since he was dead in 1964 when the WC was taking testimony.

In any case, your analysis is biased due to your deliberate omissions.  

The actual evidence shows that LHO beat Marina on several occasions during a four-month period in 1962 (August to November).   George Bouhe was probably the main reason.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 6, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Michael Clark]

10 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Sandy,

Omitting Marina's testimony shows your own bias.  

It's impossible to include Lee's side of the story since he was dead in 1964 when the WC was taking testimony.

In any case, your analysis is biased due to your deliberate omissions.  

The actual evidence shows that LHO beat Marina on several occasions during a four-month period in 1962 (August to November).   George Bouhe was probably the main reason.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul, your post shows your bias...

"Several" implies more than twice and can mislead the reader into thinking that she was beaten with some frequency through a 4 month period. The evidence does not show that. The evidence shows that she may have been hit once, possibly twice, during that period.

[Paul Trejo]

9 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

Paul, your post shows your bias...

"Several" implies more than twice and can mislead the reader into thinking that she was beaten with some frequency through a 4 month period. The evidence does not show that. The evidence shows that she may have been hit once, possibly twice, during that period.

Michael,

Your minimization of the problem shows your own bias.  You have also eliminated the testimony of Marina herself.

Regards 

--Paul Trejo 

Edited March 6, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Steve Logan]

13 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

Paul, your post shows your bias...

"Several" implies more than twice and can mislead the reader into thinking that she was beaten with some frequency through a 4 month period. The evidence does not show that. The evidence shows that she may have been hit once, possibly twice, during that period.

Once again:

MOP-Lee had been accused of killing the President. I had been testified for the Warren Commission. Their conclusions were that Lee Harvey Oswald was guilty of the crime. I was there to probably give the most damaging testimony about Lee Harvey Oswald and whatever hate you have over him, I cannot make him an angel with a good character. As a wife, I still say he wasn’t a very pleasant person to be with and I’m the same way. We’re both stubborn and whatever. 

 

OW- Was he abusive to you, Marina? 

 

MOP Yes, he was. 

 

 OW-Like, he hit you physically? 

 

 MOP-MOP

Yes, he was. 

 

  OW -Like, he hit you physically? 

 

We have a victim stating that her spouse hit her . Maybe it's just me but in my experience as a Detective, that spent 5 years in a Domestic Violence unit, I'm not buying the once or twice scenario. To read the entire interview, which is short, is interesting . Despite all that could be said in an interview with Oswald's wife, the subject of Spousal Violence is approached by the interviewer and Porter agrees that Oswald was abusive. All the while proclaiming his innocence .

 

That is unless you believe Porter to being a fabricator and maybe the opposite is true. That Oswald wasn't abusive towards her but was guilty.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Steve Logan

[James DiEugenio]

Excuse me, but who is OW?

[Michael Clark]

1 hour ago, Steve Logan said:

Once again:

MOP-Lee had been accused of killing the President. I had been testified for the Warren Commission. Their conclusions were that Lee Harvey Oswald was guilty of the crime. I was there to probably give the most damaging testimony about Lee Harvey Oswald and whatever hate you have over him, I cannot make him an angel with a good character. As a wife, I still say he wasn’t a very pleasant person to be with and I’m the same way. We’re both stubborn and whatever. 

 

OW- Was he abusive to you, Marina? 

 

MOP Yes, he was. 

 

 OW-Like, he hit you physically? 

 

 MOP-MOP

Yes, he was. 

 

  OW -Like, he hit you physically? 

 

We have a victim stating that her spouse hit her . Maybe it's just me but in my experience as a Detective, that spent 5 years in a Domestic Violence unit, I'm not buying the once or twice scenario. To read the entire interview, which is short, is interesting . Despite all that could be said in an interview with Oswald's wife, the subject of Spousal Violence is approached by the interviewer and Porter agrees that Oswald was abusive. All the while proclaiming his innocence .

 

That is unless you believe Porter to being a fabricator and maybe the opposite is true. That Oswald wasn't abusive towards her but was guilty.

The testimony of spousal abuse is being used to prosecute a dead man who was denied an opportunity to defend himself from the accusation that he killed the president. It's a non sequitor, a fallacy.

Judge: Mr. Clark, did you rob the bank?

Mr. Clark: No.

Judge: Yet, I see that you were born in July. Thus I find you guilty.

Mr Clark: Damn, that bites.

Cheers,

Michael