What evidence is there that Lee Harvey Oswald beat Marina?

[Alistair Briggs]

1 hour ago, Brad Milch said:

Thank you for the clarification, Alistair!

It's been awhile since I booted up, wore the uniform & was a 'lean, mean fighting machine' (lol). If I am not mistaken, undesirable was about as bad, if not equal to dishonorable coming out of the US military.

I don't have any real 'first hand' knowledge on the subject, I can only dig out what I can find online really. What I did come across was that an 'undesirable discharge' would come under the banner of 'Other Than Honourable' - in terms of whether that was 'about as bad' as a 'dishonourable discharge', my research leads me to believe that it wasn't quite as bad, but still bad.

http://military-law.lawyers.com/veterans-benefits/discharges-and-their-effect-on-veteran-benefits.html

Just on this whole subject,

On January 30th 1962 (although he erred and put the year as 61) Lee wrote his letter to John Connally. By that time Connally had resigned as Navy Secretary, he did 'acknowledge' the letter though and forwarded it to his successor Fred Korth - the Navy responded to Oswald advising him that no change of correction to his status was warranted.
(I will try and find a copy of the letter online, if not I can type it out from a book I have. )

On March 22nd 1962 Lee wrote another letter. Here is a quote from the book The President And The Provocateur by Alex Cox pg98 about it;

Quote

... Lee Oswald fired off a letter of his own. It was addressed to R. McC. Tompkins, Brigadier General USMC, Assistant Director of Personnel. Once again, Lee protested that he had recieved an "undiresable" [sic] discharge. In surprisingly legalistic terms, he wrote,

"I have not violated Section 1544, Title 18, US code, therefore you have no legel [sic] or even moral right to reverse my honourable discharge from the USMC of Sept.11, 1960... You may consider this letter a request by me for a full review of my case in the light of these facts, since by the time you recive [sic] this letter I shall have returned to the USA with my family, and shall be prepared to appear in person at a reasonable time and place in my area, before a reviewing board of officers."

.The last part of that makes me chuckle a bit. Lee is clearly so annoyed at having his 'honourable discharge' changed and he is adamant that it shouldn't have been changed - presumably he would want to do eveything in his power to do so, and yet he is only 'prepared' to appear in person at a place in his area. lol

Anyway, it's an interesting topic.

 

Edited March 1, 2017 by Alistair Briggs

[Alistair Briggs]

1 hour ago, Joe Bauer said:

Has anyone ever investigated whether there was some bad blood between Oswald and James Tague? 

lol

Regarding the rest of your quote, if you started a new thread about it I would be happy to throw out a response to it (rather than here so as not to get further off the original topic). Regards.

[Paul Trejo]

13 hours ago, Brad Milch said:

Paul, I always enjoy what you write & your take on the assassination, so please don't take this the wrong way:

Researchers continuously forget LHO's dishonorable discharge (that he wrote Secretary of the Navy John Connally about, in an attempt to have it reversed). Without that dishonorable discharge hanging over his head, LHO could have applied for & possibly gotten a CIA job without leaning on the likes of Guy Banister to 'pull strings' for LHO. Ditto for most Federal jobs. That DD ruined LHO's veteran status. I believe it also killed his right to attend college under the G.I. Bill also.

Of note to those who believe LHO did intel work for the Navy, specifically ONI: Such work would have qualified LHO for positions within the CIA & FBI, had he not had a Dishonorable Discharge hanging over his head like a Felony conviction. IOW, LHO could have achieved his intel goals on his own without the assistance of shadowy others had he not had a Dishonorable Discharge.

Had LHO been doing clandestine work for the Navy (or any other Federal agency), LHO could have used such experience to join Jesse Curry's or Bill Decker's elite group of undercover officers (had he wanted to). Instead of being accused of murdering a Dallas police officer, LHO could have been one himself.

6 months of Army service without a dishonorable discharge was all that was needed to qualify for a Civil Service (Federal) job as a Veteran during the Viet Nam thing. LHO had radar (Air Traffic Controller?) experience as well as foreign language proficiency (Russian) just a few years before I served our country. LHO could have scored a lot of good Federal & civilian jobs with just his military & veteran status (minus the Dishonorable Discharge). Without the Dishonorable Discharge, LHO could have attended colleges & earned his own degree (while getting paid by the Government). He could have joined his wife Marina's status as college educated.

I know this for a fact: Viet Nam & the college that followed my HONORABLE Discharge opened the door to Federal employment that allowed me to retire at age 52. None of that would have been possible with a DISHONORABLE Discharge dragging behind me like a ball & chain.

I'm more prone to believe that, if LHO was a shooter (solo or with help), he was aiming at John Connally for ruining his life. John Connally's signature on reversing LHO's Dishonorable Discharge could have turned LHO's life completely around.

In short, the Navy & John Connally stuck it to LHO & LHO stuck it right back on Nov 22, 1963.

David Von Pein knows this area much better than me....jump in here & go for it, David!

Sincerely & Respectfully,

Brad Milch

Brad,

Here's my best guess about how the "undesirable" discharge happened -- based on input from Victor Marchetti and logical deduction:

1.  LHO certainly was in the ONI program, and proved he had the right stuff by getting himself into the USSR by his own wits and guile.

2.  LHO signed on to the ONI program through what was called the "dangle" program.   This is what former CIA agent Victor Marchetti said -- not just my guess.

3.  The ONI "dangle" program was a low-level training mission, that involved three years of service.  It would prove intelligence and team playing.

4.  The ONI "dangle" program required at least 12 agents in the field, none of which knew the others, nor what the ultimate mission was.  This was for safety.

5.  Each "dangle" had a specific mission -- to identify specific people, and spot them when they came into town, then report this ASAP.   That's it.  That's all.

6.  The ONI "dangle" program coordinators would collect all this data over a three-year period, and would construct a Location-model for special suspects. 

7.  After two years of his work on the ONI "dangle" program, LHO got bored.  He married Marina and they had a baby. 

8.  Marina had no idea that LHO was on a "dangle" program -- she was 19, and thrilled to marry an American, because she wanted to go to the USA more than anything else in the whole wide world.

9.  Marina bugged LHO every day to quit his job and raise his children in the USA.  Finally, LHO caved in to Marina Oswald.

10.  LHO quit his job, but he also quit the ONI "dangle" program prematurely.   He probably knew he did the wrong thing.  But he was no match for Marina Oswald.

11. LHO successfully got passage for himself and his family back to the USA -- and had no clue that his Marine discharge would be downgraded as a result of his quitting the ONI.

12.  When LHO found out that his Marine discharge was downgraded to "undesirable,"  he wrote to the person he believed was the US Secretary of Navy, John Connally.

13.  LHO was then informed by the Navy that John Connally was no longer the US Secretary of Navy, but had left that job in December 1961. 

14.  LHO at that point realized that John Connally was not to blame for his condition.  LHO did not have any hard feelings against John Connally. 

15.  LHO never wrote anything bad about John Connally, and never said anything bad about John Connally, to the very best of my knowledge.

16.  LHO was indeed held back in Texas because he had an "undesirable" discharge from the Marines.   He knew it, and everybody knew it.

17.  To get jobs, LHO simply didn't mention his discharge status.  He learned to change the topic real quick, and evade an answer to the question.

18.  LHO continually tried various routes to upgrade his Marine status, however, he also had a wife and family to feed, and he had little time for bureaucratic shuffling.

19.  When LHO got to New Orleans, he was able to get Clay Shaw to pay for legal advice from Dean Andrews for help in upgrading his Marine status.   Nothing came of it.

20.  LHO did not shoot at anybody from the 6th floor of the TSBD.  

21.  Like an idiot, LHO handed over his rifle to a trusted "friend" and confederate of Guy Banister, early in the morning of 11/22/1963.   That was it.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 2, 2017 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Brad Milch]

Fascinating reads, Paul, Alistair & Joe!

One could certainly find motivation for LHO to allegedly abuse Marina for pressuring him to quit the ONI program (that Paul tells us LHO was involved in) & thus receiving an undesirable discharge as a result. It appears to have been the old 'YOU ruined my life' story that has historically cancered its way into many, many relationships with disastrous results throughout time (if that was the case in LHO's relationship to Marina).

Quick question for Paul: where is the LHO ONI Program paperwork? Anyone who's ever been in the US military knows nothing is done without paper orders, particularly when G.I.'s are sent somewhere on missions. It's understandable that soldiers on sensitive, dangerous missions wouldn't carry incriminating paperwork on their persons. Such a paper trail would be maintained somewhere in the headquarters that soldier was assigned to.

Apparently, John Connally & his pretty wife Nellie had their own misconceptions about LHO's discharge from the Marines. I recall several interviews in which John Connally stated he felt LHO was shooting at him & hit JFK by accident. Nellie told Larry King in 2003 that John Connally was involved in not re-instating LHO's discharge back to Honorable IIRC. Nellie also felt LHO was shooting at her husband & hit JFK by accident.

I guess I'm not the only one that mis-remembers stuff (sniffle).

Best,

Brad Milch

Edited March 2, 2017 by Brad Milch

[Paul Trejo]

53 minutes ago, Brad Milch said:

Fascinating reads, Paul & Alistair!

One could certainly find motivation for LHO to allegedly abuse Marina for pressuring him to quit the ONI program (that Paul tells us LHO was involved in) & thus receiving an undesirable discharge as a result.

Quick question for Paul: where is the LHO ONI Program paperwork? Anyone who's ever been in the US military knows nothing is done without paper orders, particularly when G.I.'s are sent somewhere on missions. It's understandable that soldiers on sensitive, dangerous missions wouldn't carry incriminating paperwork on their persons. Such a paper trail would be maintained somewhere in the headquarters that soldier was assigned to.

Apparently, John Connally & his pretty wife Nellie had their own misconceptions about LHO's discharge from the Marines. I recall several interviews in which John Connally stated he felt LHO was shooting at him & hit JFK by accident. Nellie told Larry King in 2003 that John Connally was involved in not re-instating LHO's discharge back to Honorable IIRC. Nellie also felt LHO was shooting at her husband & hit JFK by accident.

I guess I'm not the only one that mis-remembers stuff (sniffle).

Best,

Brad Milch

Brad,

I cannot remember where John or Nellie Connally suspected that LHO was shooting at John.   Certainly other people thought so -- because John was surely hit by at least one bullet from behind the JFK limo.

Although the motive to kill Connally was imputed to LHO by speculators -- it was not found among his personal writings or conversations that ANY of the WC witnesses recalled.

As for the ONI paperwork, that question goes to former CIA agent Victor Marchetti, who came up with the idea in the first place.   His status as a CIA employee gives a special weight to this theory.

As for LHO beating Marina due to the fiasco of the ONI "dangle" screw-up and the consequent "undesirable" discharge, IMHO that was just one more straw on the camel's back.

A careful study of LHO beating Marina shows that this occurred only within a specific four-month period of their relationship -- from August 1962 to November 1962.  It almost always involved a man named George Bouhe.

LHO did not beat Marina Oswald in the USSR.   LHO did not beat Marina Oswald in New Orleans.  It was only during their stay in Fort Worth -- and then one day in Dallas (their first night at Elsbeth Street, November 4, 1962), after which George De Mohrenschildt separated the couple for two weeks  -- and then on November 17, 1962, LHO went begging for Marina's forgiveness, and she forgave him, and then he never beat her again -- to the best of my knowledge.

Surely the pressure for LHO to get a job, keep a job, and keep up with the Joneses contributed to the beatings.   Surely the fact that George Bouhe collected "a hundred dresses" for Marina Oswald (according to Jeanne De Mohrenschildt) contributed to the beatings, since LHO could not match that level of breadwinning for Marina. 

Surely the fact that LHO could not get a good job because of his "undesirable" discharge from the Marines contributed, as possibly the fact that Marina was to blame for nagging LHO to move to the USA in the first place.

All these factors were contributing -- but we should look at the other side of the coin.  LHO never beat Marina in Russia, and never beat her in New Orleans.  It was only in Texas, and only when under pressure.  LHO was terrified that Marina would leave him in favor of one of the "yuppie" Russian Expatriates in Dallas.  

LHO apparently beat Marina for talking with Alex Kleinlerer, who was apparently a known wolf (see Mrs. Don Gibson's WC testimony).  The fact that Marina's skirt was incompletely zipped up at the time was just an excuse, in my interpretation.

Also, Marina forgave LHO on November 17, 1962, and he never beat her again.  Instead, they stayed in Dallas, far away from the Russian Expatriates, and LHO kept Marina in a pumpkin shell -- alone, barefooted and pregnant -- and refused to help her learn English.   LHO was a very insecure person, obviously.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 2, 2017 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Paul Trejo]

I think the preponderance of evidence (nine eye-witnesses and ten ear-witnesses from the Dallas/Fort Worth Russian Community) shows that LHO really beat Marina -- from August 1962 to November 1962.  

Not before that, and not after that.  It was a bad period in their marriage.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

I think the preponderance of evidence (nine eye-witnesses and ten ear-witnesses from the Dallas/Fort Worth Russian Community) shows that LHO really beat Marina -- from August 1962 to November 1962.  

Not before that, and not after that.  It was a bad period in their marriage.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

I don't believe so Paul.

I've made a simple timeline (in Post #2 of this thread) which indicates when the bruises were witnessed. And it is looking like the witnesses to the bruises on Marina's face all saw the same bruise. That is to say, there was only one incident that caused bruising.

Marina at first said that she ran into a door in the dark, when she was up to feed the baby. I've checked and have found that people actually do get bruised faces by walking into either 1) the edge of a door, or 2) the frame of door.

There is no credible testimony that Marina had a bruise when she ran away from Lee and lived with one White Russian after another. Marina did start telling people at that time that the bruise was caused by Lee hitting her. If we accept that as truth, that would mean that Oswald hit Marina once. At least as far as the testimony goes.

Therefore Oswald cannot be described as a wife beater, because that designation is reserved for men who hit their wives repeatedly. The only conclusion that can be made is that Oswald likely hit Marina once. I use the word "likely" (rather than "possibly") only because of Marguerite's testimony.

(In making the above assessment, I considered George de Mohrenschildt's testimony untrustworthy, and Alexander Kleinlerer's testimony a complete fabrication.)

[Alistair Briggs]

*What about the testimony of Mr and Mrs Tobias? Sure, they weren't first hand witnesses... still!

Edit - they tie in with the November thing. But the one Marguerite saw was approx mid September.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Alistair Briggs

[Paul Trejo]

14 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

*What about the testimony of Mr and Mrs Tobias? Sure, they weren't first hand witnesses... still!

Edit - they tie in with the November thing. But the one Marguerite saw was approx mid September.

Mr. and Mrs. Tobias, at the Elsbeth Street apartments in Dallas, did not claim to see any bruises, but they did say that the Oswalds fought all the time, and that they were very noisy.  There were complaints from the other tenants about the noise, including breaking glass and a broken window.

Now, when James Hosty came around in early 1963 to check up on Marina Oswald, a USSR native, the Oswald's had long since been evicted by the landlord of the Elsbeth apartments, because of all the noise and fighting.  At that point, Mr. and Mrs. Tobias told Hosty that the fighting was so bad -- they were convinced that LHO was a drunk.

Well, LHO wasn't a drunk, and he didn't drink alcohol at all.  But that is a common association to make, because many families see increased fighting and violence in the home when one of the spouses is a souse.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited March 3, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Sandy Larsen]

3 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

*What about the testimony of Mr and Mrs Tobias? Sure, they weren't first hand witnesses... still!

Edit - they tie in with the November thing. But the one Marguerite saw was approx mid September.

Well, it's hearsay. But let's look at it. Here's the first part:

Mr. JENNER. How did your other tenants feel toward Oswald?
Mr. TOBIAS. Well, they didn't like it.
Mr. JENNER. They didn't like what?
Mr. TOBIAS. They didn't like the way he beat her all the time.

The tenants say Lee beats Marina all the time. (Actually the landlord said it. But let's believe him for the sake of argument.)  My question is, how do they know he beats her? Probably because they hear shouting... loud arguments. We know they didn't see bruises because it was shortly after this that Marina left Oswald and went to live with the Mellers. She lived there for a week and then went and lived with the Fords. Mrs. Meller was asked twice if there were any bruises and she didn't answer either time. Mrs. Ford was also asked and she testified that there were no bruises.

So my conclusion is that the tenants likely based what they said on hearing Lee and Marina arguing. And they likely gossiped among themselves like the White Russians did.

Here's the second part of Tobias's testimony:

Mr. JENNER. They complained to you that he manhandled her?
Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; there was one man that came over there one night and he told me, he said, "I think that man over there is going to kill that girl," and I said, "I can't do a darn thing about it." I says, "That's domestic troubles and I don't jump into a man and a woman's fighting," which I don't. If he hurts her bad, then I'll have to take it up, but not until, so he knocked a window out of the back door.

Mr. Jenner asked if "they" -- meaning the tenants -- complained that Lee manhandled Marina. Tobias answers in the affirmative... BUT then he goes on about some guy that went over there and said Lee was gonna kill Marina. My guess is that the guy was de Mohrenschildt or Kleinlerer. Two guys who'd made up their minds that Oswald was a wife beater based on the one time they saw Marina with a bruised face.

Anyway, I believe it was this guy (one of the two I mentioned) that Tobias was referring to when he answered Jenner's question in the affirmative.

BTW, I wouldn't be surprised if the gossip among the tenants was fueled by things said by de Mohrenschildt or Kleinlerer to one or more of the tenants.. Or by Bouhe.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Alistair Briggs]

7 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Mrs. Ford was also asked and she testified that there were no bruises.

Mr. LIEBELER - What was the next contact then that you had with the Oswalds?
Mrs. FORD - I think it must have been at--in late October or the first part of November when Mr. Bouhe called me and said that Marina made a call to Anna Meller and told her she is leaving her husband because of she can't stand the beating and treatment any longer from Lee Oswald, but none of us knew at the moment that he had mistreated her that way, but at the time at the party I remember seeing Marina with bruises on her face and she made excuses of running into a door or something at the night when attending the baby.
Mr. LIEBELER - This was the first time you saw her?
Mrs. FORD - That is right, the first time I saw her I did see bruises on her face.

lol I know you know that as you have it in your Detailed Summary Of Testimony on page 1 of this thread.

Anyway,

I don't think Oswald was a 'wife beater'... he may have hit her once or twice, and not to excuse that, but maybe circumstances played a massive part... but we don't know! For all we do know he may have done it more and more and there were lots more 'bruises' but in a position that would not be visible to others - we just don't know. Setting aside the 'physical' side of things, there is so much more pointing to their marriage (and specifically at the time from arriving back to the US and becoming involved with the 'Russian community') being not good. There are also signs that when they disaccosiated with most of them that perhaps things were turning a corner in the positive.

As I said earlier in the thread...

Quote

Despite the gossip that no doubt took place and the lack of 'first hand witnesses' (of which there appears only to be one), there were a number of 'second hand witnesses' who saw bruises, but it also goes beyond the physical side of things. Even if there were only a limited number of times that there was anything 'physical', there is certainly a lot more pointing to 'problems' in their marriage. Enough to surely point towards Oswald being at best a pittable husband and at worst 'guilty' of domestic abuse...

 

 

[Michael Walton]

I'm  concerned  here because  Paul is all in with witness  statements being pure gold to prove LHO was a wife beater.

But over on another  thread about whether  LHO was in Mexico Paul states that witness statements  got it wrong about Mexico.

So why are some statements  pure gold for  Paul while others aren't? Isn't  that greasing  the  screw to fit your own agenda?

[Sandy Larsen]

46 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

8 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Mrs. Ford was also asked and she testified that there were no bruises.

Mr. LIEBELER - What was the next contact then that you had with the Oswalds?
Mrs. FORD - I think it must have been at--in late October or the first part of November when Mr. Bouhe called me and said that Marina made a call to Anna Meller and told her she is leaving her husband because of she can't stand the beating and treatment any longer from Lee Oswald, but none of us knew at the moment that he had mistreated her that way, but at the time at the party I remember seeing Marina with bruises on her face and she made excuses of running into a door or something at the night when attending the baby.
Mr. LIEBELER - This was the first time you saw her?
Mrs. FORD - That is right, the first time I saw her I did see bruises on her face.

lol I know you know that as you have it in your Detailed Summary Of Testimony on page 1 of this thread.

Mr. LIEBELER - Let's clarify that a little. Did Marina Oswald have any bruises at the time she came to live in your house in November 1962?
Mrs. FORD - No; that is right. But she stayed at Anna Meller's house for a week and when she came to Anna Meller's house I heard there were bruises at that time.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did Anna Meller tell you that?
Mrs. FORD - Either Anna Meller or George Bouhe told me that. I don't remember.

The only time Mrs. Ford saw a bruise was around the end of August 1962, at a luncheon party held by the Mellers. That's the bruise that all the bruise witnesses saw IMO. The only outlier (in terms of when the bruise was witnessed) is Elena Hall. She said she saw the bruise in July. But Bouhe is the one who took Elena to the Oswald resident, and he didn't mention seeing a bruise that early.

I believe that Elena's July estimate is wrong, that it was really in August. The August bruise was mentioned by Bouhe... and by all the other bruise witnesses. (Marguerite's date is unknown. But she probably saw the same bruise, though possibly after it had healed some.)

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Alistair Briggs said:

For all we do know he may have done it more and more and there were lots more 'bruises' but in a position that would not be visible to others - we just don't know.

And for all we know, the same could be true about you and me and our wives.

My point being that we shouldn't even entertain the thought. Not without at least witnesses to the bruises.

[Paul Trejo]

2 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

I'm  concerned  here because  Paul is all in with witness  statements being pure gold to prove LHO was a wife beater.

But over on another  thread about whether  LHO was in Mexico Paul states that witness statements  got it wrong about Mexico.

So why are some statements  pure gold for  Paul while others aren't? Isn't  that greasing  the  screw to fit your own agenda?

Michael,

It really depends on the witnesses' testimony.

The Mexico City bus witnesses contradicted each other and admitted they had weak data.  They had only a few hours with this non-Oswald.

The Russian witnesses, conversely, upheld the testimony of the others, and they knew about LHO for months.

In any murder case involving a famous person, we must be wary of 'mistaken identity' incidents.  There are many of these in the WC testimonies.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo 

Edited March 3, 2017 by Paul Trejo