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John Butler

Separate Realities on the SW corner of Elm and Houston

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Separate Realities:  A view from the Lady in the High Castle

We only have two views of the South West corner of Elm Street and Houston Street.  These views are from the Zapruder film and the Elsie Dorman film. 

Isn’t that strange?  Isn’t that very, very strange.  Only Elsie Dorman in the TSBD was filming?  No one in front of the TSBD or in Mannequin Row was taking pictures?   No one was taking photos further down Elm St. towards the freeway signs?  No one was taking photos in the crosswalk on North Houston?  No one was taking pictures in the crosswalk of East Elm St.?  No one was taking pictures on East Houston St.  Strange indeed!

By viewing these two films we should be able to establish how many people were on the SW corner of Elm and Houston.  The two films should match.  They don’t.  By viewing these films frame by frame, we come up with a different number of people there at the same time in the two films. 

The discrepancy between counting people there in the two films is too large.  The Elsie Dorman film has approximately ten more people there as the Zapruder film does.  One film shows people that are not present in the other.  This is a large discrepancy!  Which one is a fake?

The Zapruder film has two beginnings.  The beginning of the Zapruder film starts with the Z frame 1 with 3 motorcycle policemen at the beginning of the presidential motorcade making the turn onto Elm Street.  The film misses the Pilot Car and the Advance Car.  This is all that is shown of the parade or motorcade.  This lasts for 132 Z frames and is about 7 seconds in length.  The second beginning starts at Z frame 133.  The presidential limousine appears magically on Elm Street in this frame.  We have missed the lead car, and 5 motorcycle policemen.  How much time has passed is unknown. 

Perhaps, as much as 20 or more seconds have passed.  Given the time of the third wave (3 motorcycle policemen) of the motorcade to pass is 7 seconds then we can guess at how long it has taken the other waves of the motorcade to pass.  This is at least 21 seconds or longer.

The time of Elsie Dorman film on the SW corner of Elm and Houston is unknown.  The entire film is about 1minute and 25 seconds in length.  It begins as the presidential limousine is turning onto Houston Street from Main Street.  Elsie Dorman said she stopped filming when the President and the limousine turned unto Elm Street.  This would be as the 5 lead motorcycles were turning onto Elm Street or just shortly afterward as the presidential limousine turned onto Elm Street.  One can get a notion of this in the following panorama.

Dorman%20montage%203%20b_zpscjadsuxr.jpg

This panorama is not correct.  There may be missing frames and the frames are assembled out of sequence here.  People are covered with black paint blotches.  The lead car is missing and out of sight.  Does this indicate somebody knows something?  Check out the distance between the Johnson vehicle and the Secret Service vehicle?  Did someone know something?  4 out of 5 motorcycle policemen are missing.  Data is missing from this panorama that highlights major differences between Elsie Dorman and Zapruder.  Shooting from the 4th floor should give one a wider view of events below.  There is also a gap in the film similar to Zapruder but, not at the same place.   This gap is in front of the Court Records Building.  This is similar to many other assassination films.

Dorman%20montage%203%20b%20cropped_zpsgr

Howard Brennan on the retaining wall and a man in bid overalls and what appears to be a railroad hat are used as markers because they are visible in Elsie Dorman and before and after the gap in the Zapruder film.   I call this man the Railroad Man because of his clothing.  If you count west of the red line between Howard Brennan and the Railroad Man you will find about 16 people there in this panorama. 

Someone knew of the problem of the difference in the number of people in the two films.  This is an attempt to bring Elsie Dorman in tune with Zapruder.  The SW corner after Z frame 133 has 16 people  countable in the Zapruder film.  This panorama is a clever attempt to hide major differences between the Dorman and Zapruder films. 

This will be made clearer as we move along in the discussion.

Just as an aside, this panorama is just a second or so before the assassination ambush of President Kennedy begins.  You will not find anywhere a visual record of the presidential limousine passing the Court Records Building.

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So, to the counting of people on the SW corner of Elm and Houston in Elsie Dorman and Zapruder. This is done by drawing a line from Howard Brennan to the Railroad Man (red line) and then counting west.  This will be a standard for counting people in both films.  In the panorama above you can count about16 or so people there.  There is actually more people there when we count people frame by frame.  There are about 26 or more people on the SW corner in the Elsie Dorman film.

Let’s start with the westernmost section of the SW corner and work the other way to the east.

restored%20elsie%204%20two%20women_zps7t

 Here is the westernmost section of the SW corner.  There are 10 people in this frame.  None, absolutely none of these people are shown in the Zapruder film in this location!!   The two people in the center of the frame are show further east as a couple and as a single person. (10)  The two people shown in this location in Zapruder, the lady in black and her companion with the grey hair and flat black hat, are not shown in Dorman in this location. 

The next frame not duplicating people shows the people on the right (screen left) of the group above.

Restored%20elsie%201st%20women%20b_zpsve

In this Dorman frame are ten people.  Howard Brennan is not clearly seen.  This scene introduces a second set of women who are not part of a group of 5 women we will see later.  They are standing next to Amos Euins.  (10) + (10) = 20 people.  The next frame to the east has this:  

railroad%20engineer%20folding%20chair_zp

Since the woman and the boy are in the last frame we will count to the east from there.  There are 9 people there and we will not count all nine.  We will only count 1.  That is the Railroad Man.  This leaves out the Towners, 3 men in suits and, others like Howard Brennan should be counted.  The reason for this is to match the counting method in the Zapruder film. (20) + (1) =21.

And, then there is another group that doesn’t get seen in the Zapruder film.  This is a group of 5 women standing near each other.  They are not shown in the panorama shown earlier, they are blacked out with black paint.  The two women on the left (only one seen) is not part of their group and not counted.

dorman%20life%20p17%201%20crop%201_zpsoo

This adds an additional 5 people.  (21) + (5) = 26 people.  All of these people are there before the arrival of the presidential limousine.  There are 26 or more people on the SW corner prior to the President’s arrival.  This is twice as many people there before the President’s arrival as is shown in the Zapruder film, Z frames 1 to 132, 12 people versus 26 people.

 

Edited by John Butler

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Very interesting analysis, John!

I noticed an open window in the reflection of the building (TSBD?) in the reflecting pool water. The image looks to me to be more like the open window of the 5th floor directly under the 'sniper's nest', if it's not Elsie Dorman's window.

Let's hope the cyber bullies stay out of your thread(s) & leave you alone while you do your thing. There's nothing positive for anyone to be learned from bullies of any kind. What might be what is being attempted to distract from your analysis? Let me skip over the diversion tactics & get to the beef....

...It might be this: all of the ambush films appear cut when the parade car traverses Houston Street or turns onto Elm Street. One cannot observe the actions of the SS car occupants the entire journey from Houston to Elm Street. Dan Rather slipped out an interesting observation when he told CBS News TV viewers that, upon seeing one of the Zapruder copies on Monday, 25 Nov 1963, that an SS agent was riding the bumper of JFK's parade car before the shooting began (Rather's 3 different CBS News TV descriptions of what he saw when the Zapruder film was projected in Zapruder's office can be viewed on YouTube. Rather also described viewing the Z-film on a Dallas radio broadcast).

If all those photographers captured a man in a suit mounting either the bumper of JFK's parade car or the SS followup vehicle before the shooting began on Elm Street, it is understandable why such a scene would be cut out of the films by those attempting to conceal the truth of the President's murder. I doubt JFK would have turned around if he felt or sensed someone mounting the rear of his touring car because he was used to SS agents mounting & leaving the vehicle during motorcades (as Clint Hill did several times in the Dallas motorcade).

How difficult would it have been for a shooter (or two) to join either of the two vehicles, shoot the President in the back & the back of his head, wound John Connally from point blank distance & simply dismount the car & run past the Newman family at the base of the pergola on Elm Street, escaping the scene? That scenario would explain why the Newmans saw men with automatic weapons run past them from (what they believed to be) the SS Queen Mary when the ambush ended & others saw SS men surround the JFK car during the shooting; some smelling gun smoke in the kill zone.

 

Respectfully & Sincerely,

Brad Milch 

Edited by Brad Milch

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Thanks Brad for your comments.  They are appreciated.  I will take more time in re-reading those later.

Stayed tuned the analysis has just begun.

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Now, let’s take a look at the Zapruder film.  During the first 132 Z frames I have chosen Z frame 95 due to its clarity and showing all of the SW corner area.  It is a cropped version of John Costella’s work.   132 Z frames are roughly 7 seconds.  This is calculated by dividing 132 by 18 to arrive at 7.3 seconds.  Not a lot changes in that time.  This is the time the 3 motorcycle policemen move through the intersection.

Z%20frame%2095%20A_zpsklfnqicm.jpg

We begin counting to the west from Howard Brennan on the retaining wall to the Railroad Man.   On Elm Street we have 12 people or so.  We don’t see the woman in the tan coat’s companion in black.  There should be a woman in black there.  You might be able to see her coat and foot between the legs of the man standing with his back turned to the camera.  Where are Phillip Willis and Robert Croft?  Where are Rosemary and Linda Willis?  They are on the NW corner of Main and Houston Street.  Robert Croft is south of the intersection of Main and Houston.

Here is Z frame 136.  This was chosen for clarity to represent the SW corner after the Zapruder Gap.  I think there maybe 20 to 24 seconds in the gap as a rough estimate.

z136%20a_zpscfatlzus.jpg

Counting from Howard Brennan to what appears to be Railroad Man near Elm Street to the right (screen left) of the frame.  We have approximately 16 or more people there.  This is up from 12 before the gap in the film.  So, there are about 16 people there.  This matches the Elsie Dorman panorama fairly well with the people you can see with the exception of the missing 5 women and the 5 couples seen in Dorman. 

The problem is that some of the people showing up as extras after the gap are not in the Elsie Dorman film.  These would include Phillip West and Robert Croft.

To sum up, the Zapruder film has fewer people on the SW corner of Elm and Houston as in the Elsie Dorman film.  The numbers are 16 or so in Zapruder to 26 or so in Elsie Dorman.  Can you explain that?  Are we still a believer in the authenticity of the Zapruder film?  Or, is the Dorman film false?

   

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Let’s begin the next part of this discussion with a simple problem.  What happened to the group of 5 women seen in the Elsie Dorman film and not seen in the Zapruder film.  They are not there on the first pass through this area but are there on the second pass through during the film.  Who are they and why are they missing in Zapruder? 

dorman%20life%20p17%201%20crop%201_zpsri

 

This information is provided from their FBI testimony taken on the 22nd or at a later date. 

  1. Judy Johnson

  2. Delores Kounas (Mrs. George Andrew)

  3. Sharon Nelson

  4. Roberta Parker

  5. Betty Dragoo

  6. And, one man:  Lloyd Viles, McGraw-Hill employee, mystery man

Because of this witness testimony confliction one cannot be sure that this group is for real or not.  For whatever reason they are not in the Zapruder film and should be.

The next problem concerns those running girls, the Willis girls.  Once again what we see in Elsie Dorman is not what we see in Zapruder.  We see them running in reverse order without their mom and dad on the SW corner.

Here is a good Dorman frame that shows that.

Restored%20elsie%201st%20women%20b_zpsve

Linda is running before Rosemary as they round the curve of the reflecting pool.  Linda has a camera in her hands.  They run pass the two women on the left.  We will see this in the next frame.

dorman%20mary%20jean%20lindas%20sister%2

Linda is still in the lead.  She does not stop on the grass and shout at her sister or take a picture with her camera.

What do we see in the Zapruder film?  Here is Z frame 136 again.  It was chosen over Z frames for clarity purposes.

z136%20a_zpscfatlzus.jpg

We can see several different things here.  Linda has stopped her run as Rosemary has continued.  Linda, with her hands raised, is said to be calling her sister.  Actually, she is taking a picture.  (She’s a better candidate for the Willis Slides than her father, Phillip)  In earlier frames she has a camera with her.  This may be a second or two after passing the woman in blue and her companion shown in the Dorman film.

There appears to be a problem with the location of the woman in the blue raincoat.  In Dorman she appears much closer to the steps on the other side of the reflecting pool than is shown here in Zapruder. 

Her dad, Phillip Willis is in the picture but, not in Dorman.  Robert Croft is in the Z frame but, not in Dorman.

Which is the real version?  Can you tell me?  The photo editors of the Zapruder film were arrogant, contemptuous, and totally dismissive of their viewing audience.  They knew with perfect certainty no one would ever figure out what they did on the SW corner of Elm and Houston.

Edited by John Butler

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2 hours ago, John Butler said:

Let’s begin the next part of this discussion with a simple problem.  What happened to the group of 5 women seen in the Elsie Dorman film and not seen in the Zapruder film.  They are not there on the first pass through this area but are there on the second pass through during the film.  Who are they and why are they missing in Zapruder? 

dorman%20life%20p17%201%20crop%201_zpsri

 

This information is provided from their FBI testimony taken on the 22nd or at a later date. 

  1. Judy Johnson

  2. Delores Kounas (Mrs. George Andrew)

  3. Sharon Nelson

  4. Roberta Parker

  5. Betty Dragoo

  6. And, one man:  Lloyd Viles, McGraw-Hill employee, mystery man

Because of this witness testimony confliction one cannot be sure that this group is for real or not.  For whatever reason they are not in the Zapruder film and should be.

The next problem concerns those running girls, the Willis girls.  Once again what we see in Elsie Dorman is not what we see in Zapruder.  We see them running in reverse order without their mom and dad on the SW corner.

Here is a good Dorman frame that shows that.

Restored%20elsie%201st%20women%20b_zpsve

Linda is running before Rosemary as they round the curve of the reflecting pool.  Linda has a camera in her hands.  They run pass the two women on the left.  We will see this in the next frame.

dorman%20mary%20jean%20lindas%20sister%2

Linda is still in the lead.  She does not stop on the grass and shout at her sister or take a picture with her camera.

What do we see in the Zapruder film?  Here is Z frame 136 again.  It was chosen over Z frames for clarity purposes.

z136%20a_zpscfatlzus.jpg

We can see several different things here.  Linda has stopped her run as Rosemary has continued.  Linda, with her hands raised, is said to be calling her sister.  Actually, she is taking a picture.  (She’s a better candidate for the Willis Slides than her father, Phillip)  In earlier frames she has a camera with her.  This may be a second or two after passing the woman in blue and her companion shown in the Dorman film.

There appears to be a problem with the location of the woman in the blue raincoat.  In Dorman she appears much closer to the steps on the other side of the reflecting pool than is shown here in Zapruder. 

Her dad, Phillip Willis is in the picture but, not in Dorman.  Robert Croft is in the Z frame but, not in Dorman.

Which is the real version?  Can you tell me?  The photo editors of the Zapruder film were arrogant, contemptuous, and totally dismissive of their viewing audience.  They knew with perfect certainty no one would ever figure out what they did on the SW corner of Elm and Houston.

John,

I believe the lady you are referring to as Linda Willis in the Z film is incorrect.

Linda Willis appears to be in a light blue top with a dark blue skirt on. 

Check the Bell and Dorman films for her clothing match.

The woman in the red box (gif) is a better match for her.

chris

 

Blue.gif

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The Dorman film shows Tina Towner and mother in matching outfits (light blue sweater and black/dark skirt).

If not for the black skirt, I'd say the woman I pointed out in the previous Z gif would be a match for Mrs.Towner (clothing wise).

Dorman1_1.gif

 

 

 

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A more appropriate question might be: If that is not Linda Willis in Z, with a blue jacket and brown skirt on, with hands raised to face, where did she come from in approx 2 seconds pryor to z133, according to the Dale Myers multi sync project?

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Chris,

Good question.  I haven't studied all this new info you have provided. It looks interesting and informative. 

But, based on the two Dorman frames, one is clearer than the other, the two running people appear to be Linda and Rosemary Willis.  From the distance to the two women in blue and brown standing in the center of the lower Dorman frame it appears that only a second of two has passed.  Since there was no one behind the two ladies in the clear frame then the likelihood is that this is Linda and Rosemary in the second frame a second or so later.

I don't know the identification of the woman you point out if it is not Linda Willis. I based the notion that this is Linda Willis based on the assumption Linda Willis has to be in the Zapruder film as was shown in Dorman.  Someone had suggested that Linda had stopped and was calling to her sister.  Others have suggested this is Linda.  The placement of Linda Willis (?) is out of order and place for the Dorman film.  

My point is things are different in the same place and time in both films.  In Dorman we see Linda and Rosemary make their run, in Zapruder we only see Rosemary running.  Poppa Phillip is not in Dorman and he is in Zapruder.

Whoever is running in the Bell film leaves the walk west of the reflecting pool going west.  Is this supposed to be Linda and Rosemary?  Linda and Rosemary enter the SW corner from along Houston in Dorman and not the walk west of the reflecting pool.

I figured someone would say something about identifying the 5 women and Lloyd Viles.  This is a mysterious group with testimony saying they were in two places.  They are in Dorman and they are not in Zapruder.

"A more appropriate question might be: If that is not Linda Willis in Z, with a blue jacket and brown skirt on, with hands raised to face, where did she come from in approx 2 seconds pryor to z133, according to the Dale Myers multi sync project? "

See, that is the problem of the Z gap.  It is of an unknown length of time.  As a rough estimate I believe it could be as long as 20-24 seconds.  All I know is that the Willis Family was on the NW corner of Main and Houston.  Linda and Rosemary I feel had time to get to the SW corner of Elm and Houston.  I doubt Phillip Willis did.  He took Willis slide 3 which shows the presidential vehicle about to pass on front of the Court Records Building.  That building is probably about 100 feet long like the TSBD. The motorcade traveling at 11-12 mph would be in the intersection and driving by the TBSD faster than Phillip could make it being a disabled vet.  He very well may be an inserted object.  The same goes for Robert Croft.  Although being younger and I presume healthier he may have made the SW corner in 20-24 seconds.  The one of the two girls, Phillip Willis, and Robert Croft make up part of the differences in numbers in the Z film pre-gap and post gap. 

Thanks for your help. 

Edited by John Butler

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Chris,

Here is a note I made on time in the Zapruder Gap.

Time In The Zapruder Gap

The Zapruder film comes in two parts.  The first 132 frames are separated from the rest of the film by a gap of unknown length and time.  And, the rest of the film begins again at the 133rd frame. 

Zapruder’s camera used Bell and Howell 8mm film and was capable of taking 264 frames per meter.  That would be roughly over 2000 frames for a 25 foot film at 18 frames per second.  This would be about 3 minutes in filming duration.

Using the 18 frames per second yardstick can we measure how much time passed during the Zapruder Gap.  One can get a rough estimate perhaps.

The first 132 frames of the Zapruder film shows one of the lead elements of the Kennedy Motorcade enter the intersection of Elm Street and Houston Street and proceed until the film crosses the gap and switches to the second half of the film.  The lead motorcycle element of the motorcade consisted of 3 Dallas Police Department policemen.  Prior to the 3 motorcycles being filmed two elements of the motorcade were not filmed.  These were the Advance Car and the Pilot Car.

The 3 DPD motorcycles are visible for about 7 seconds using the 18 frames per second yardstick.  Then, the film switches to a scene where the presidential limousine appears magically on Elm Street, past where the first element of the presidential motorcade consisting of 3 policemen, are last seen.

From this description we can know with certainty that the other elements of the presidential motorcade preceding the presidential limousine must have passed through the intersection of Elm and Houston Street.  What are these elements?

  1. The Advance Motorcycles, 5 in number

  2. The Lead Car

  3. And, the presidential limousine since it appears magically on Elm Street and is not seen entering the intersection

If we use our 7 second yardstick then the Zapruder Gap is about 21 seconds in length or 21 x 18 equals 378 frames in duration.  Can a lot happen during that time?  Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry said the assassination took about 20 seconds.

If one begins the assassination on Houston Street in front of the Court Records Building (8 assassination films skip this area) and end the assassination just past the TSBD (24 out of 50, 48% is the largest number of witnesses closest to the sniper’s nest said shooting occurred while the presidential vehicle entered the intersection or was in front of the TSBD.  The next largest number 8 witnesses or 16% said the president was near or at the Grassy Knoll, the Zapruder location) then we have about 20 seconds for the assassination based on movement of the presidential motorcade through the intersection of Elm and Houston Streets.  That’s plenty of time for someone or more than someone to fire more than 3 shots.

6 or 7 seconds, a short distance for a kill zone, and a low quality, bolt action rifle with an unsighted scope does not make for a well planned assassination.  It is a joke!  Of course that is what the WC was trying to portray, Oswald the demented.  If Oswald was a manical killer then why didn’t he fire a fourth time just to make sure?  It’s not a long distance to the Triple Underpass from the TSBD.

There is too much contrary evidence to put Oswald into the 6th floor sniper’s nest.  Police Chief Jesse Curry said he couldn’t place him there with a rifle. J. Edgar Hoover said the evidence was not very, very strong.   What Curry and Hoover said coupled above with the notion, based on the closest witness testimony (5 out of 7 closest witnesses said they heard shooting from elsewhere) that you can’t prove beyond a reasonable doubt that anyone fired a weapon from the 6th floor sniper’s nest.  The preponderance of the evidence suggests that no one shot a rifle from the sniper’s nest.

 

Edited by John Butler

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John,

This is the John Martin film.

The very first frame has a man rounding the concrete structure (left side of film).

That could be Phil Willis. (Does he have enough time to get from there to where he is seen in Z ?)

You can cross check that with the Bell film I supplied earlier, as it appears that same man and the two succeeding people (daughter/father possibly) are in both films. imo

I'm not  sure who the person in the red box is.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwrExtVD005ORmdrYUJaMzhzOUk/view

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