Were TSBD employees Jacob, Holt, and Simmons misidentified as Calvery, Hicks, and Reed?

[Thomas Graves]

15 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Just one of those things, where my brain never made the connection at first. lol

btw my earlier question about phoning her or writing a letter to her was a genuine question by the way...

Alistair,

I'm personally convinced that the dark-skinned woman identified as "Gloria Calvery" in the 11/22/63 photos and films was Stella Mae Jacob, and that the blond "Karan Hicks" in those same photos and films was Gloria Jeanne Holt.  So I don't feel a need to write or call either of them.  But if someone else wants to do it in a polite and civil manner, they're more than welcome to do so as far as I'm concerned.  If they do, I would suggest that they print out a copy of the three women ("Calvery," "Hicks," and "Reed") walking back up the sidewalk after the assassination, and send it to them so they'll know to whom you're referring when you ask them "Hey, Is that you?"

I assume that whoever is wants to do it contact you for the "contact info," Alistair?

I hope that whoever does it let's us know the results right away so that an additional 15,000 "researchers" do not call or write Jacob and / or Holt.  (lol)

--  Tommy

Edited March 2, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Robin Unger]

Am i missing something, which part of these 3-Witness statements places these woman in this standing location on Elm st. ?

 

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

Good morning, Thomas!

May I be the first to say, bloody brilliant bit of deductive logic! Yes, Gloria Jeanne Holt's high school photo does bear a strong resemblance to the woman ID'ed as Karan Hicks, and the woman ID'ed as Gloria Calvery could very well be a native American whose name might just be Stella Mae Jacob. 

Interestingly, Nelson is the only one of the three to not say which side of Elm she was standing on, while Jacob and Holt both stated they were standing on the south side of Elm.

Just to clarify things for anyone new to this case, the group of women ID'ed on the north side of Elm as Gloria Calvery, Karan Hicks and Carol Reed also included two other women named Karen Westbrook and June Dishong. Out of these five women, only June Dishong failed to give a statement to the FBI. While Calvery, Westbrook, Hicks and Reed each list the other three women as being in their group, all four women omit June Dishong from this group, even though she is clearly seen standing with these four women in the Zapruder still.

Of course, you realize it is not just Calvery that is misidentified but also the group of four (or five) she is standing in, and the entire group must be removed from the location east of the Stemmons sign.. The same goes for Stella Mae Jacob's group. Is there a group of four (or five) unidentified women on the north (or south) side of Elm St. that might be Calvery and her friends?

Of course, if Jacob, Holt and Nelson are part of the group of five women on the north side of Elm (ID'ed as Calvery, Hicks, Reed, Westbrook and Dishong) why would all three of these women fail to mention they were part of a group of five women that could have included Westbrook and Dishong?

So, we have seven women giving statements to the FBI and six of them clearly state which side (north or south) of Elm St. they are standing on. In each group, there is no disagreement as to which side of the street that group is on.

Are we to believe six women cannot tell north from south? Where are we to find Calvery, Westbrook, Hicks, Reed and possibly Dishong now?

Can anyone say now, with a straight face, there has not been evidence tampering by the FBI?

Thanks, Robert.

And welcome back!  Have a nice "vacation"?

--  Tommy

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Isn't it true that Sharon Nelson must be referring to the north side of Elm here? There seems to be no unidentified women on the south side.

Z200

 

Z220

 

Z240

 

Sandy,

Yes, I believe she was referring to the north side of the street.  In my original post, I think I kinda implied that a mistake had been made, and that the three's FBI statements should have said they were on the north side of the street, instead.

Even if they had been on the south side of Elm Street, I believe they would have been a little farther down. 

Sorry, dude.

--  Tommy

Edited March 2, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Robin Unger]

[Robin Unger]

It seems strange that two of the women know which way is WEST but would not no SOUTH from NORTH ?

In fairness, it wouldn't be the first time that the FBI placed a witness on the wrong side of Elm st ( the Hesters )

the FBI said the Hesters were on the SOUTH side of the street.

[Sandy Larsen]

55 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Sandy,

Yes, I believe she was referring to the north side of the street.  In my original post, I think I kinda implied that a mistake had been made, and that the three's FBI statements should have said they were on the north side of the street, instead.

Even if they had been on the south side of Elm Street, I believe they would have been a little farther down. 

Sorry, dude.

--  Tommy

Tommy,

Thanks, I knew that YOU questioned the accuracy of the reports (stating "south" instead of "north"). I was just trying to get some acknowledgement for the fact that one of the three women, Sharon Nelson, didn't specify south (or north). And that she could have only meant north given that is where everybody "midway between the TSBD building and the underpass" is standing.

BTW, for anybody who hasn't noticed, even the other two women said they were positioned 50 yards from the TSBD toward the underpass. So it seems obvious that they were standing on the north side of Elm, not south. Given that they aren't to be seen in the Z film.

(Tommy, I know you're convinced. I am too. I think Robert is as well. I'm writing this for the others.)

Awesome discovery Tommy!

[Pat Speer]

I saw a number of comments on this thread about "south side of Elm" and "north side of Elm". This was discussed on this forum some time ago. The confusing reality is that there were TWO Elms. There is the Elm Street which runs in a straight line from east of the TSBD across the front of the TSBD and then ends in a parking lot behind the grassy knoll. And then there is the Elm street which winds downhill and goes under the underpass. Those working in the TSBD were quite aware they worked on the north side of Elm. In crossing the street to line up along the motorcade route, they thereby crossed over from the north side of Elm to the south side of Elm. That this put them on the north side of the "other" Elm apparently slipped their minds.

In any event there was at least one other witness whose use of north/south was confusing. The FBi reports on Mr. and Mrs. Charles Hester says they crossed over to the north side of Elm after the shots. They were actually there the whole time.

Date 11/25/63

CHARLES HESTER, 2610 Mayhold Street, furnished the following information:

At approximately 12:30 p.m., November 22, 1963, HESTER and his wife, BEATRICE, were standing along the street at the point immediately preceeding the underpass on Elm Street where President JOHN F. KENNEDY was shot. HESTER stated he saw the President slump in the seat of the car and that he heard two shots fired from what appeared to be a building located on the corner of Elm Street and Houston Street. He Stated he and his wife were almost in a direct line of the fire and he immediately grabbed his wife and shoved her to the ground. He stated he thereafter immediately escorted his wife across to the north side of the street on an embankment in an attempt to gain shelter.

HESTER stated he did not see anyone with a gun at the time the shots were fired and that after the President's car had pulled away from the scene and officers started toward the aforementioned building, he and his wife proceeded to their car and left the area.

---

on 11/24/63 at Irving, Texas File # DL 89-43

By Special Agent DOYLE WILLIAMS and HENRY J. OLIVER Date Dictated 11/25/63

Mrs. CHARLES HESTER, 2619 Keyhole Street, Irving, Texas, advised that sometime around 12:30 p.m., on November 22, 1963, she and her husband were standing along the street at a place immediately preceding the underpass on Elm Street, where President KENNEDY was shot. Mrs. HESTER advised she heard two loud noises which sounded like gunshots, and she saw president KENNEDY slump in the seat of the car he was riding in. Her husband then grabbed her and shoved her to the ground. Shortly thereafter they went across to the north side of the street on an embankment in an attempt to gain shelter. She stated that she believes she and her husband actually had been in the direct line of fire. She did not see anyone with a gun when the shots were fired and stated she could not furnish any information as to exactly where the shots came from. After the President's car had pulled away from the scene. she and her husband proceeded to their car and left the scene as she was very upset.

---

on 11/24/63 at Irving, Texas File # DL 89-43

By Special Agent J. DOYLE WILLIAMS and HENRY J. OLIVER Date Dictated 11/25/63

 

Edited March 3, 2017 by Pat Speer

[Sandy Larsen]

3 hours ago, Pat Speer said:

The confusing reality is that there were TWO Elms.

Ha! Yeah, that explains a lot.

[Robin Unger]

4-women ?

 

Edited March 3, 2017 by Robin Unger

[Robin Unger]

standing location of the women on Elm st

[Thomas Graves]

14 minutes ago, Robin Unger said:

standing location of the women on Elm st

All of them?

--  Tommy

[Thomas Graves]

30 minutes ago, Robin Unger said:

4-women ?

 

 

Thanks, Robin.

If I had to guess which one of those four women was Gloria Calvery, I'd say she was the "broad in the beam" one.

--  Tommy

Edited March 3, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Robin Unger]

No not all of them.

The unzoomed re-enactment gives us a better idea of the womens general placement in Dealey plaza on 11/22/63

[Michael Walton]

Can someone  tell me what the point of this thread is? l like  the  way Bob said "for those unfamiliar..." but I still don't  understand  what all of this has  to  do  with  the  case.