Is there hard evidence that Richard Case Nagell's ID with Oswald's signature was in his possession when arrested?

[Sandy Larsen]

I told the Nagell story to my LNer friend and he's interested in knowing this.

I've wondered the same thing myself, but never asked because I haven't needed to know.

EDIT 1: See the "hard evidence" in this post.  Never mind... that proof doesn't hold.

EDIT 2: Instead, see the "soft evidence" in this post.

Edited September 18, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Tom Hume]

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a picture of this ID, but Larry Hancock mentions it in the Spartacus article liked below:

 

http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKnagell.htm

 

“The items that are available [in Nagell’s possession at the time of his arrest] are amazingly similar to items also in the possession of Lee Oswald. They include:

 

(1) One miniature Minolta camera and developing kit.

 

(2) Fair Play for Cuba leaflets.

 

(3) The P.O. Box for the Fair Play for Cuba committee in New Orleans, Louisiana. The committee which had only one member. Lee Oswald.

 

(4) Cuban and Communist literature including the Case against Cuba by Corless Lament, one of the documents also being used in New Orleans by Lee Oswald.

 

(5) A notebook containing the unlisted telephone number of the Cuban embassy, the same number as found in Oswald's notebook.

 

(6) The notebook also contained names of individuals who would much later be identified as CIA personnel from its Los Angles office. (The names were submitted by the FBI to the CIA in October '63 and eventually verified by the CIA as being names of actual employees)

 

In addition, the trial files for Richard Nagell also contain an identification card, the card being a military ID with Nagell's photo and the name and signature of Lee H. Oswald.”

 

Tom

[Thomas Graves]

4 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I told the Nagell story to my LNer friend and he's interested in knowing this.

I've wondered the same thing myself, but never asked because I haven't needed to know.

There's a small photo of it in Nagell's book.  To me, it doesn't look like Oswald.  His mouth seems to be too wide.  

EDIT:  Nor does it look like Nagell, for that matter.

--  Tommy

FWIW, it says 5' 11", 145 pounds, with gray eyes and brown hair.

Edited March 8, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Tom Hume]

But according to Dick Russell, this is not a picture of Richard Nagell: 

 

“The picture on Nagell’s Oswald card, it turned out, is the same photograph that appears on a Marine Notice of Classification bearing the name of “Alex J. Hidell...” (Dick Russell, TMWKTM, page XVIII)

 

If I understand Sandy's question, he is interested in an ID with Richard Nagell's picture and Lee Oswald’s signature. If it turns out there is such a thing, that would be very interesting. 

 

In addition to the first card pictured in Tommy’s post above, Nagell claimed to have another interesting piece of ID. From The Man Who Knew Too Much, page 61:

 

“...he [Nagell] further described the contents of his personal property ‘seized and confiscated’ by the FBI on September 20, 1963. It included two Mexican tourist cards (one of them for multiple entrance) made out to the names “Joseph Kramer” and “Albert” or “Aleksei Hidel”....”

 

Edited March 8, 2017 by Tom Hume

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Tom Hume said:

But according to Dick Russell, this is not a picture of Richard Nagell: 

 

“The picture on Nagell’s Oswald card, it turned out, is the same photograph that appears on a Marine Notice of Classification bearing the name of “Alex J. Hidell...” (Dick Russell, TMWKTM, page XVIII)

 

If I understand Sandy's question, he is interested in an ID with Richard Nagell's picture and Lee Oswald’s signature. If it turns out there is such a thing, that would be very interesting. 

 

In addition to the first card pictured in Tommy’s post above, Nagell claimed to have another interesting piece of ID. From The Man Who Knew Too Much, page 61:

 

“...he [Nagell] further described the contents of his personal property ‘seized and confiscated’ by the FBI on September 20, 1963. It included two Mexican tourist cards (one of them for multiple entrance) made out to the names “Joseph Kramer” and “Albert” or “Aleksei Hidel”....”

 

I'm saying the face on the top card does not look like the face on the bottom card, imho.

--  Tommy

[Sandy Larsen]

What we really want to know is whether there is proof that Nagell had that card in his possession at the time of his arrest, which was in September 1963. If so, that would be proof that he really was involved with Oswald prior to the assassination. Not just something Nagell concocted after the fact.

From glancing through a few pages of Dick Russell's book, it appears that either there is no such proof, or Dick Russell saw no need to provide proof. (Note that Russell says that he found the card in the files of Nagell's Washington DC attorney, Bernard Fensterwald Jr., whom Nagell retained in 1974. So not from the files of his trial attorney.)

Maybe Dick Russell saw no reason to prove it because there were other things he did prove. There's no doubt that Nagell had been a CIA agent. But I'd like to see something proving he was really involved with Oswald.

BTW, I found the following in Chaper 7 of the ARRB Report:

"The Review Board sent a letter to Nagell dated October 31, 1995, requesting that Nagell contact the Review Board’s Executive Director to discuss any assassination records he might have in his possession. Subsequently, the Review Board was informed that Nagell had been found dead in his Los Angeles apartment the day after the ARRB’s letter was mailed. (The coroner ruled that he died as a result of natural causes.)"

No surprise there.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

What we really want to know is whether there is proof that Nagell had that card in his possession at the time of his arrest, which was in September 1963. If so, that would be proof that he really was involved with Oswald prior to the assassination. Not just something Nagell concocted after the fact.

From glancing through a few pages of Dick Russell's book, it appears that either there is no such proof, or Dick Russell saw no need to provide proof. (Note that Russell says that he found the card in the files of Nagell's Washington DC attorney, Bernard Fensterwald Jr., whom Nagell retained in 1974. So not from the files of his trial attorney.)

Maybe Dick Russell saw no reason to prove it because there were other things he did proved. There's no doubt that Nagell had been a CIA agent. But I'd like to see something proving he was really involved with Oswald.

BTW, I found the following in Chaper 7 of the ARRB Report:

"The Review Board sent a letter to Nagell dated October 31, 1995, requesting that Nagell contact the Review Board’s Executive Director to discuss any assassination records he might have in his possession. Subsequently, the Review Board was informed that Nagell had been found dead in his Los Angeles apartment the day after the ARRB’s letter was mailed. (The coroner ruled that he died as a result of natural causes.)"

No surprise there.

Sandy,

Would you expect to find an official inventory?

If it exists, do you think the bad guys would make it available?

If they made it available, would you suspect its authenticity?

--  Tommy

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Thomas Graves said:

Sandy,

Would you expect to find an official inventory?

If it exists, do you think the bad guys would make it available?

If they made it available, would you suspect its authenticity?

--  Tommy

Tommy,

I don't know if the police itemize things they take custody of.

Nagell's attorney had the photocopy of the card in his files. If that came from the files of Nagell's trial attorney, I think that would be pretty good proof.

 

Edited March 9, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[David Andrews]

If Fensterwald had the ID photocopied above, where did he get it?  I'm strapped for time, but one can see the positive or negative provenances possible.

Dick Russell has, I think, been a guest on this Forum.  It would be great if he would take questions on Nagell and Oswald.

Edited March 9, 2017 by David Andrews

[Larry Hancock]

A short answer is that yes the police do an inventory - the complete contents taken from Nagell went into evidence as well as a list.  Ultimately only part of the list was released during his various legal actions and only part of the materials taken. So we have only a partial inventory - which does not even include items on his person as I recall. There will never be a solid chain of evidence of all of it including that particular card which Dick himself found in going though the materials released to his lawyer.  Its a very long story but anyone who has a copy of SWHT can find the details in my treatment of Nagell...   Dick Russell has posted on this here before, its come up a number of times. You may find something on a search for his posts. 

[Sandy Larsen]

Thanks Larry!

 

[Micah Mileto]

It would be very important to establish a source for that other than Russel's books.

[Sandy Larsen]

5 hours ago, Micah Mileto said:

It would be very important to establish a source for that other than Russel's books.

I have an staunch LN friend who said he'd become a CTer if there were an official document showing that Nagell had the ID card when arrested.

[Micah Mileto]

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I have an staunch LN friend who said he'd become a CTer if there were an official document showing that Nagell had the ID card when arrested.

I know CTs don't like to think about these people often, but many people will think that rejecting anything from conspiracy researchers counts as critical thinking. It would be like someone thinking that videos of WTC 7 collapsing are faked to look like controlled demolition.

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Micah Mileto said:

I know CTs don't like to think about these people often, but many people will think that rejecting anything from conspiracy researchers counts as critical thinking. It would be like someone thinking that videos of WTC 7 collapsing are faked to look like controlled demolition.

Yeah! Some people are such staunch believers in something that they will deny ANYTHING that contradicts their belief. Even if it's right in front of their eyes.

For example, I've had atheists attack some of my religious beliefs. (And BTW, I was agnostic most my life. My best friend is an atheist. All my other friends are religious. I have no problem with people of any belief system.) This has happened more than once, where they will bring up the topic of evolution, I think hoping to trap me. (I believe in evolution BTW, though not sure about it producing new species. Seems logical though.) They have REALLY strong feelings about evolution and they will point out that it has been proven true. I will remind them of two things: 1) Like everything else in science, evolution is a theory; and 2) creation of a new species has never been observed... and observation is one of the requirements of the scientific method. (BTW, speciation in plants is commonplace. I'm talking about speciation in animals.) They refuse to believe both those statements, even though they are true, can easily be verified, and in fact I did show them where the scientific community backs me up. In return they linked to articles that they think proved their point. But clearly they hadn't read the articles or they'd know that they didn't agree with their contentions.

I had some Tea Party friends (who now hate me after we had an agreed-upon debate) who believe all kinds of untrue things about Barrack Obama. Very much the same story.

BTW the atheists I debated (whom I didn't really know, but just debated online after they criticized my beliefs) also ended up hating me. Which just goes to show that the old saying is true... one should never discuss religion or politics.