Jump to content
The Education Forum
  • Announcements

    • Evan Burton

      OPEN REGISTRATION BY EMAIL ONLY !!! PLEASE CLICK ON THIS TITLE FOR INFORMATION REQUIRED FOR REGISTRATION!:   06/03/2017

      We have 5 requirements for registration: 1.Sign up with your real name. (This will be your Username) 2.A valid email address 3.Your agreement to the Terms of Use, seen here: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=21403. 4. Your photo for use as an avatar  5.. A brief biography. We will post these for you, and send you your password. We cannot approve membership until we receive these. If you are interested, please send an email to: edforumbusiness@outlook.com We look forward to having you as a part of the Forum! Sincerely, The Education Forum Team
Douglas Caddy

Robert Groden, JFK Expert, Settles with Dallas After 82 Bad Arrests

Recommended Posts

Posted (edited)

The last paragraph in that article sums up Groden's motivations for his incredibly committed adult life mission and never giving up efforts (against a mind blowing onslaught of long term illegal abuse of power ) in regards to keeping the JFK truth search alive.  

Groden is an heroic inspiration to me and others who have always felt this truth is one of the most important ones ever in our always on-going struggle to keep us in a constitutional rights - democracy principled society ( versus the opposite for the non-truth ) and also felt JFK gave his life for all Americans in this vein versus just the privileged and often corrupt few.

Edited by Joe Bauer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Oh, and Douglas, I know this is off this thread's topic but because I share your views on other subjects like the ET presence,

I assume you saw the interview of George Bush on Jimmy Kimmel's show?

As Kimmel had done with Clinton and Obama, he asked Bush about the E. T. & U.F.O. secrets subject.

All Bush would say is ... yes, there are important secrets he knows but he can't and will never talk about these ...ever !

And he didn't dismiss or laugh off the E.T. one like Obama did.

Like I have stated before, whoever holds and controls the complete truth folders of these secrets has more power than anyone in elective office.

Even presidents are beholden to them and their higher authority.

But how anyone can see and hear Bush's responses to the ultimate secret questions Kimmel asked of him and still think that there isn't anything to these 

is beyond my sense of common rationality.

 

Edited by Joe Bauer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Two interesting comments from that story page on Groden:

If you believe Groden is wrong about the assassination, then you believe the citizens of Dallas County, who were there, were wrong, because their observations conflict with the official government lie that one man performed the assassination by firing three shots in six seconds with a junked rifle. But you won't learn about the witnesses from watching local Dallas news or reading the DMN, because they have for decades assisted in the cover-up by pumping out stories that lie about the events of 11/22/63.

***

Schutze, in the paragraph below, stops short of mentioning Sixth Floor Museum executive director, Nicola Longford. In the federal lawsuit, which was held in the Earle Cabell Courthouse almost three years ago, Kizzia presented multiple emails authored by Longford, that show how Longford orchestrated the attacks on Robert Groden. Longford coordinated with DPD Assistant Chief Vince Golbeck, DPD captains and lieutenants, as well as the City's District Parks Maintenance Supervisor, Steve Warden. In emails Longford sent after Groden's night in jail, she practically high-fived these City employees in celebration of a job well done of harassing Groden. In fact, Longford thought so highly of Warden's part in harassing Groden, that she hired him as the Operations Manager at the Sixth Floor following his retirement from the City. Talk about conflict of interest! Longford is dirty on several fronts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

My one & only personal experience with Robert Groden & his sidekick dates back a few years. It's not intended to influence anyone. It happened as I'm about to describe. It is what it is.

I was visiting Dealey Plaza & Groden walked up to me outside the north pergola shelter (cupola) where Zapruder & Sitzman were stationed creating the Zapruder film. I asked him if he was Robert Groden & he said he was. I shook his hand & complimented him on his contributions to humanity in getting the Zapruder film viewable to the public on TV back in 1975. Then I made my first mistake: I asked him a question about the assassination.

Groden motioned for me to follow him to his table that held stacks of his books, magazines & DVD's. He picked up a copy of 'The Search For Lee Harvey Oswald', held it in front of his body & told me 'the answer is in here'. How much for the book? 100 bucks he told me (I discovered later it was around 19 bucks in bookstores). I asked him another question. Groden held up something else & told me 'the answer is in here'. I'm starting to think this guy is hustling me.

Then the sidekick comes over. He saw everything that happened during the ambush, he claims. He was THERE, he tells me. He saw this, he saw that. He heard this; he heard that. A shooter was here; a shooter was there. He knew all the Dealey Plaza witnesses, where they lived & what they ate for supper. He knew everything there was to know about the Dealey Plaza ambush. He held up a copy of Altgens 5 & pointed to where he said he stood during the JFK ambush as proof that what he was saying was genuine.

I walked over to where Mr. Sidekick claimed he was standing in Altgens 5. I squatted down to an adolescent's height & looked at Elm Street, from the intersection to the triple overpass. The dip in the road was so deep just after the intersection that cars traveling down Elm Street seemed to disappear from sight from that point most of the way to the overpass from Mr. Sidekick's alleged position on Houston Street in Altgens 4.. It became apparent to me that with the streets lined with spectators & a motorcade passing though, plus the pandemonium following the attack on JFK & John Connally,this sidekick guy didn't see a darn thing half a century ago (if it really was him in the Altgens 5 photo).

At this point, I'm thinking this sidekick guy was trying to hustle me too. A genuine Texas hustling team. Sheesh! I didn't see anything like this on Geraldo Rivera's 'Goodnight America' TV show all those years ago.(note: in all fairness, since Mr. Sidekick didn't try to sell me anything, what he showered me with would be called 'shuck & jive' in the part of the USA I was raised & educated in; universally referred to as BS)

As I do with all people that impress me as hustlers, I left without saying a word, with my money still n my pocket.

I haven't given much thought to either of those two (Groden or sidekick) since. I have sometimes wondered what it was about me that gave them both the impression that I had just arrived in America & Texas directly from a banana boat.

Sincerely,

Brad Milch

 

Edited by Brad Milch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find it curious that instead of arresting Groden 82 times for breaking no law, they didn't pass whatever law or ordinance they needed to stop him after the first, oh, 10 or 20 arrests. 

I've heard of little girls having their lemonade stands shut down because they didn't have a license. Yet the folks in Dallas couldn't think of any legal way to stop Groden for selling his merchandise in Dealey Plaza?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Brad,

An interesting story about Groden.  But I'm confused.  Yes, it sounds like Groden may be a money-grubber.  That's sad.  We do have to give him credit for shining the light on the Zapruder film for all to see back in 1975. If you know your history, the Z film was hidden from the public from the day it was shot until then. It's my understanding that when Groden exposed it to a national audience, the outcry led to the Church Committee hearings on assassinations.

Yes, I agree that I don't like money-grubbers about this case but we do have to thank Groden for doing this because it brought to light that the WR was nothing but a railroading POS document and nothing more and it clearly exposed the SBT as nothing but a POS fairy tale as well.

But on the other side of the coin, I can't seem to understand how you can find fault with Groden, and yet with some of the members of this forum and their absolutely outrageous and ridiculous claims about this case and some bordering on the crazy and lunatic fringe - you're all "Alright! Keep it up, guys! Your work is ground-breaking, guys! Onward, lads." And you seem to make these statements regularly and consistently.  Yet, when other members here offer critiques of them, they're trolls and worst.

So it seems your statements on this board are very inconsistent - you criticize one of the early trailblazers of this case; you shower praise on the borderline lunatic fringe of this board, and call people who offer honest critique of those lunatics' posts "trolls."

Where do *you* stand on this case?  And please do not type a 1,000 word essay now on "I was in class when it happened and we were crying and I'll never forget it...." and on and on.  Where do you stand?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

@Michael:

I'm consider myself a student of the case. I'm always open to learning truthful info. Spinmasters don't impress me much. Like me, most of them were not present when the crimes occurred. That's our common denominator.

At times, I find it difficult to distinguish from those fighting for the truth vs. those fighting to sell books & DVD's on the case. To prevent myself from being a hustling victim, I usually wait for my local library to obtain some materials & check it out there. That has it's downfalls too: while recently reading Zapruder's granddaughter's book for free at the library, the uncontrollable urge to yell at her overcame me several times. The same thing happened while reading Clint Hill books on the assassination. As we all know, yelling at the library is not good. Not good at all (lol).

My personal interest in the JFK case, I can trace back to my 5th grade teacher, Mrs. Rogers, when the assassination & aftermath happened in real time. Mrs. Rogers was probably close to retiring when I was one of her young students (I was 11). She was in her late 40's or early 50's. Mrs. Rodgers would settle an argument with her by spanking someone's palm with her ruler or sending them & their desk to an impromptu bivouac out in the hallway outside her classroom (I could swear I saw David Von Pein out there several times!).

Although never having served in the US military or worked for the US Government as a civilian in any capacity, Mrs. Rodgers felt both were involved in the murder of JFK. She didn't buy the 'LHO did it alone' story one bit. I was always curious as to why she felt that way. I've learned along the way from then until now. I'm still learning.

That's why I am attracted to the Education Forum. It's an online educational institutional experience for free. Here at EF one can find educators as diverse as Mrs. Rogers to Jim DiEugenio to Paul Trejo to David Von Pein. Some of the best, most expensive colleges in the world can't claim that!

Brad

Edited by Brad Milch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Brad, yes, your story about Groden does make one cringe somewhat.

I've never been to Dealey Plaza let alone Texas, so anything I know about the more current day doings and characters there is through what I read through various venues like this forum.

So when I read about someone's personal experience with Groden that was unpleasant with an apparent desperate for a buck pushing of his books at 5X their retail sale price, I do feel bad to a degree.  

From my distant, limited and probably over simplified view of Groden I want to see him as a hero standing up to the forces of false truths.

I still feel this admiration for Groden and always will.  No one can deny his past efforts in the JFK truth cause.

However, your personal experience with Groden ( which I trust as true ) does remind me that even people who do things that are heroic have flaws as much as everyone else.

And I can certainly relate to the desperateness one sometimes feels when they are stressed financially.

More and more this is the biggest and most common stress for middle class and poorer Americans.

Just a short note regards M. Walton's post;

I don't see the "borderline crazy lunatic fringe" in this forum as distinctly as Walton.

There was a time when a member posted so often with his obsessive views of the Clinton's sex lives and those of other prominent figures that I would agree this qualified as such.  

 

Edited by Joe Bauer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Brad Milch said:

My one & only personal experience with Robert Groden & his sidekick dates back a few years. It's not intended to influence anyone. It happened as I'm about to describe. It is what it is.

I was visiting Dealey Plaza & Groden walked up to me outside the north pergola shelter (cupola) where Zapruder & Sitzman were stationed creating the Zapruder film. I asked him if he was Robert Groden & he said he was. I shook his hand & complimented him on his contributions to humanity in getting the Zapruder film viewable to the public on TV back in 1975. Then I made my first mistake: I asked him a question about the assassination.

Groden motioned for me to follow him to his table that held stacks of his books, magazines & DVD's. He picked up a copy of 'The Search For Lee Harvey Oswald', held it in front of his body & told me 'the answer is in here'. How much for the book? 100 bucks he told me (I discovered later it was around 19 bucks in bookstores). I asked him another question. Groden held up something else & told me 'the answer is in here'. I'm starting to think this guy is hustling me.

Then the sidekick comes over. He saw everything that happened during the ambush, he claims. He was THERE, he tells me. He saw this, he saw that. He heard this; he heard that. A shooter was here; a shooter was there. He knew all the Dealey Plaza witnesses, where they lived & what they ate for supper. He knew everything there was to know about the Dealey Plaza ambush. He held up a copy of Altgens 5 & pointed to where he said he stood during the JFK ambush as proof that what he was saying was genuine.

I walked over to where Mr. Sidekick claimed he was standing in Altgens 5. I squatted down to an adolescent's height & looked at Elm Street, from the intersection to the triple overpass. The dip in the road was so deep just after the intersection that cars traveling down Elm Street seemed to disappear from sight from that point most of the way to the overpass from Mr. Sidekick's alleged position on Houston Street in Altgens 4.. It became apparent to me that with the streets lined with spectators & a motorcade passing though, plus the pandemonium following the attack on JFK & John Connally,this sidekick guy didn't see a darn thing half a century ago (if it really was him in the Altgens 5 photo).

At this point, I'm thinking this sidekick guy was trying to hustle me too. A genuine Texas hustling team. Sheesh! I didn't see anything like this on Geraldo Rivera's 'Goodnight America' TV show all those years ago.(note: in all fairness, since Mr. Sidekick didn't try to sell me anything, what he showered me with would be called 'shuck & jive' in the part of the USA I was raised & educated in; universally referred to as BS)

As I do with all people that impress me as hustlers, I left without saying a word, with my money still n my pocket.

I haven't given much thought to either of those two (Groden or sidekick) since. I have sometimes wondered what it was about me that gave them both the impression that I had just arrived in America & Texas directly from a banana boat.

Sincerely,

Brad Milch

 

That side-kick of Robert's was a guy named Mike Brown and I never believed a word he said. I doubt that he was ever in Dealey Plaza when JFK was shot. He no longer works with Robert. I am sure that the other vendors thought a lot of Mr. Brown because I once saw him hand over a hand full of Robert's booklets behind his back for little cash when Robert was busy doing an Interview. The vendor would then walk off into the Plaza and sell the booklets at the same price Robert got for them. I asked Mr. Brown if he and Robert usually sell the booklets to the other vendors and he said they did. At dinner that evening, I told Robert what I had witnessed and was not surprised for he had been experiencing a lot of shortages. I expect now that Mr. Brown is gone that the shortages have stopped.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

In the article, I wonder what the answer is to the important question of who ordered the harassment of Groden and why?

The former will tell us a lot about the latter.

I tend to suspect it was the Sixth Floor.  If you recall, before the whole utterly disgraceful heist of Dealey Plaza for the fiftieth anniversary by the mayor and A. H. Belo Corporation, there was evidence that the instigating email for that operation came from the Sixth Floor.  If I recall, it may have been from the late Gary Mack.  

I really wanted to get to the bottom of that.  But our side did a lot of talking without ever doing what should have been done: soliciting  funds for filing a lawsuit. I think we would have won and been able to determine who was the original motivator behind depriving the American people of their first amendment free assembly and free speech rights. And make no mistake, this was a three sided operation between the Sixth Floor, Belo Corporation and the mayor's office.

Another reason I suspect the Sixth Floor is that they purchased a location across the street, one which Robert Groden was attempting to rent to open his version of a JFK museum.  In other words, this present Sixth Floor monstrosity has been, for several years, attempting to dominate the discussion of the JFK case on the ground in Dallas.  

Edited by James DiEugenio

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jim I  don't  know if  you  noticed but at the  top  of this thread I  posted two comments that were left on the article site  and one mentions  the SFM being  the  source  of the harassment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I missed that. Thanks for pointing that out Mike.

Well, that is what I expected.  The thing is, the Sixth Floor is supposed to be a private entity.

From this, and from what happened at the 50th, which I mentioned above, its almost like an extension of the city government.  When they want something done, they send an email and, bang, its done.  I am sure that is what would have happened had our side filed a lawsuit over the confiscation of Dealey Plaza for the 50th.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Quote: I think we would have won and been able to determine who was the original motivator behind depriving the American people of their first amendment free assembly and free speech rights. And make no mistake, this was a three sided operation between the Sixth Floor, Belo Corporation and the mayor's office.  - Jim DiEugenio

Every coin has an opposite side, Jim;

The fight over free speech first amendment rights is what enabled the Internet to become swamped with pornography websites & unsolicited porn email ads parents kids see & read (and view images) on a daily basis. You happy with your kids seeing that garbage, Jim?

How about the rights of people to pay respects to their murdered President without vendors setting up tables a few yards where the poor man was slaughtered depicting horrific color autopsy photos (the same photos Earl Warren was afraid vultures would obtain from the WC & hawk in public)?

How would you feel if your brother or father was one of the victims of 911 & you went to the site of the attack to pay your respects & vendors had tables set up there selling photos of your relative's body? Imagine how Caroline would feel if she visited Dealey Plaza & stepped out of the Zapruder cupola (as I did) and was greeted by a 'vendor' hustling books & magazines containing her deceased father's head blown apart, displayed on a flea market table for all to see? What about Caroline & her children's rights?

What's up with that, Jim?

Before Groden impatiently shooed me away from his little merchandise table for interfering with his sales (I didn't buy anything he was selling; I told him all that stuff can be obtained for free at the library), I did look around  & noticed some thing things missing: decency, integrity, respect for the deceased & their living relatives, & respect for Dealey Plaza visitors to visit the site in peace being among them.

It will take the best of the best authors to convince me that stuffing money in the wallets of any Dealey Plaza 'vendors' (be they Robert Groden, or anyone else) exploiting the death of President Kennedy for personal profit is a cause worth fighting for.

So far, no authors have convinced me.....

Brad Milch

Edited by Brad Milch

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Brad:

I don't know what you are really talking about, but this post and your prior one about that phony image of Oswald in the sniper's nest window are  puzzling to me, and I think others.

This whole issue that I am addressing goes back to, what was the scheme between The Sixth Floor Museum, A. H. Belo Corporation (which owns the local newspaper), and the Mayor's office to go ahead and essentially take over Dealey Plaza well in advance of the fiftieth anniversary. In fact, if I recall correctly, the first communications went out over a year in advance--and to the best of my memory were written by the late Gary Mack.

The fiftieth anniversary was probably one of the last and best opportunities for our side to get our message out to a mass audience.  Both on the ground, and in the mass media.  Gary, and the Sixth Floor,  enlisted Mayor Rawlings and the DMN (owned by Belo Corporation) to apply for a ONE WEEK demonstration permit for the plaza.  

Got that Brad: ONE WEEK.  When i and others applied for a permit on the 30th, it was for three hours.  You know what happened at the expiration of the 3 hours, like within five minutes of that time? The police showed up and asked us, "Why are you still here?"

Not only did they get the one week permit, but they also then pre approved ticketing in advance for those allowed into the plaza!  How? Through Homeland Security.  Think a lot of jihadist terrorists from the Middle East wanted to be there for that event?  I don't.  But with the powerful computers Homeland Security has, you can check off almost any indices you want.  Which is why I did not apply.

And how did Rawlings make sure that only the people Homeland Security approved got into the plaza?  He did something a bit amazing.  He called in 200 off duty cops, paid them overtime, and these cops set up construction wooden horses, piled on top of each other, that blocked access on all three avenues leading into the plaza.  Behind these obstacles  were armed uniformed police, both standing and in cruiser cars.  Behind that second barrier were police on horseback.

No one got in there who the Sixth Floor did not want in there.  

The closest anyone got who was not invited was a block or so away, and you got to see David McCullogh--Tom Hanks' favorite historian--on a giant vertical TV screen talking about the life of John F. Kennedy.  Geez David, isn't this the anniversary of his assassination?   But this, of course, cinched the second goal of the plaza confiscation:  it made sure that whatever the MSM picked up that day out of Dallas was what Rawlings and the Sixth Floor--and Hugh Aynseworth of the DMN--controlled in advance. 

IMO, and a few others, this whole pre planned heist of the plaza would not have withstood a legal challenge.  It qualified as not just a deprivation of free speech and assembly, but also a violation of the underlying doctrine of prior restraint.  That is, the prevention of free speech before it even takes place.  

If you want to compare whatever Groden does in Dealey Plaza with a deprivation of the first amendment to thousands of people, and through the MSM to potentially millions, fine Brad, it goes along with your advocacy for DVP.  But for me, I would rather pose the question:  if Groden was not there trying to get out the alternative view, then who would  be there?

Edited by James DiEugenio

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

×