Was A Mexico City KGB Operations Officer Eusebio Azcue's "Blond, Very Thin-Faced" Oswald"?

[Thomas Graves]

5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Thanks Tommy.

I could change my mind, but my gut tells me that Oswald was never in Mexico City. Which means Leonov is making up that story. (Which I wouldn't believe anyway. And which happens to be very similar to the one told by the Russian author of that book David Lifton has recently posted about. BTW, DSL does believe that version of the story.)

I tend to believe Sylvia Duran... when she's not under pressure. (Well, reportedly she told a friend she had dated Oswald while he was in MC. Which I don't believe. But I think it is her friend who is fibbing, not Duran.) Anyway, Duran told the HSCA that the Oswald she saw was blond and had blue or green eyes. Azcue, of course, said much the same thing.

(Let me Azcue a question... did you like my play on words?  hehe, sorry. Moving on...)

Your hypothesis that Leonov was the blond Oswald seems quite possible to me. If the Oswald character was indeed Leonov, maybe he used the fabricated story you quoted (above) in an attempt to remove himself from consideration as the blond Oswald. (Coincidentally and ironically, to throw Thomas Graves off his tail !  Did it work?)

Another possibility explaining the Oswald-putting-his-gun-on-the-table story is that perhaps the KGB or Russians adopted its use for some reason. Maybe to show others that Oswald was a crackpot that they would never trust for any job.

Or maybe an Oswald impersonator did put the gun down and act all nervous and everything, and this is where the Russians got the story.

 

Huh?

[Sandy Larsen]

58 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Thanks Tommy.

I could change my mind, but my gut tells me that Oswald was never in Mexico City. Which means Leonov is making up that story. (Which I wouldn't believe anyway. And which happens to be very similar to the one told by the Russian author of that book David Lifton has recently posted about. BTW, DSL does believe that version of the story.)

I tend to believe Sylvia Duran... when she's not under pressure. (Well, reportedly she told a friend she had dated Oswald while he was in MC. Which I don't believe. But I think it is her friend who is fibbing, not Duran.) Anyway, Duran told the HSCA that the Oswald she saw was blond and had blue or green eyes. Azcue, of course, said much the same thing.

(Let me Azcue a question... did you like my play on words?  hehe, sorry. Moving on...)

Your hypothesis that Leonov was the blond Oswald seems quite possible to me. If the Oswald character was indeed Leonov, maybe he used the fabricated story you quoted (above) in an attempt to remove himself from consideration as the blond Oswald. (Coincidentally and ironically, to throw Thomas Graves off his tail !  Did it work?)

Another possibility explaining the Oswald-putting-his-gun-on-the-table story is that perhaps the KGB or Russians adopted its use for some reason. Maybe to show others that Oswald was a crackpot that they would never trust for any job.

Or maybe an Oswald impersonator did put the gun down and act all nervous and everything, and this is where the Russians got the story.

 

Huh?

Where did I lose you?

 

[Thomas Graves]

8 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Where did I lose you?

 

 

8 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Where did I lose you?

 

Huh?

Gee, I dunno.  Maybe (just maybe) this? --  

 

"If the Oswald character was indeed Leonov, maybe he [who?] used the fabricated [by whom?] story you quoted in an attempt to remove himself [who was that, again?] from consideration as the blond Oswald."

 

He, whom, who?

Oh My God.  Are you actually agreeing with me that KGB officer Nikolai Leonov impersonated Oswald on Saturday, September 27, 1963?

--  Tommy

 

Also, which David Lifton post on which thread were you talking about before that confusing sentence?

PS  Do you only tend to believe things that "point toward" an evil, evil  CIA conspiracy, and dismiss everything else?

Edited May 4, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

On 5/2/2017 at 9:52 AM, Thomas Graves said:

On 5/1/2017 at 2:52 AM, Thomas Graves said:

 

I would think that that kind of result is to be expected with words and names labeled in a text as having been "phonetically-spelled".

Regarding the 1975 Church Committee memo we've been talking about, I think it's reasonable to assume that: 1 ) the author was getting his information from Angleton, 2 ) JJA was telling the guys about things that had happened some twelve years earlier, 3 ) Angleton might not have been able to perfectly remember the Russian dude's name by that time, and 4 ) Angleton might even have had a martini or two a little earlier that day.

Or, ..... Angleton did remember Leonov's name, and enunciated it clearly to the guys, but the writer of the memo was either too darn lazy or embarrassed to ask JJA to spell it out for him.

LOL

 

 

FWIW, I just now found this article on the website JFK Facts:

 

Nikolai S. Leonov has an interesting perspective on the story of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.

Leonov joined the KGB in 1958 and retired in 1991 with the rank of Lieutenant General. In the spring of 1963, his fluency in Spanish gained him the job as the Russian interpreter for Cuba president Fidel Castro during his first visit to the USSR in the spring of 1963, In the photo above he is the man standing between and behind Castro and Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev.

Later that year Leonov was assigned to the KGB Station in the Soviet Embassy in  Mexico City. In October 1963, he was immediately informed when a man named Lee Harvey Oswald called the Embassy seeking a visa to travel to Cuba.

Leonov recalled this encounter in his memoirs (Likholetye [The Troubled Years], 2005). The relevant passage was translated by Mark Hackard for his digital page Espionage History Archive. Here is an extract.

 

Retired KGB official Nikolai Leonov

"Once on a Sunday in the autumn of 1963, several weeks before the assassination of John F. Kennedy, I was playing volleyball with my colleagues at the embassy’s athletic field. Suddenly a somewhat agitated duty officer appeared and began to ask me to receive an American visitor and speak with him. Swearing under my breath, I ran over in my track suit, hoping that I could get off with a request for him to come on a workday. Entering the reception room for foreigners, I saw a young man with an unusually pale face. A revolver lay on the table, its cylinder loaded with bullets. I say nearby and asked him how I could be of assistance. The young man said his name was Lee Oswald, that he was an American, and that he was currently under constant surveillance and wanted to return immediately to the USSR, where he had earlier lived and worked in Minsk, and be delivered from the constant fear for his life and for the fate of his family. It was clear that behind the table sat a man with an overstimulated nervous system that was on the verge of breakdown. There was no purpose to speaking with a person who was in such a state. The question of restoring citizenship was extremely complicated. One had to write a well-founded request to the USSR Supreme Council Presidium and then wait without any great hope for a long time. And if a positive decision came, then bureaucratic red tape would a lot of time. With the softest, most calming tone I could use, I informed our unusual visitor of this. He began to write a request, but his hands were trembling strongly. Suddenly he set the pen aside and firmly stated: 'I’ll shoot them all today. In the hotel everyone is following me: the manager, the maid, the doorman…' “His eyes shone feverishly, and his voice became unsteady. Images and scenes unknown to me had obviously set upon him. It was clear that behind the table sat a man with an overstimulated nervous system that was on the verge of breakdown. There was no purpose to speaking with a person who was in such a state. We had only to calm Lee Oswald down as much as possible, try to convince him not to do anything that could hinder a positive resolution to his question of restoring USSR citizenship, and accompany him out of the embassy. I let the embassy consular department know of what had occurred.

After November 22

“When some time later I learned that namely Lee Oswald was accused of assassinating US President John Kennedy, I saw on television the moment of his murder in a Dallas jail. It was a murder camouflaged as a random assassination, and it became clear to me that he was an obvious scapegoat. Never could a man with such a shaken nervous system, whose fingers couldn’t steadily hold a pen, calculatingly and in cold blood produce the fatal shots accurately from long distance. I say this firmly and with conviction, because in my youth, as a student at the Moscow State Institute of International Relations (MGIMO), I was involved in sport shooting and steadily passed the requirements for a marksman. I was even a member of the Moscow shooting team. Many times I had to shoot from a combat rifle in competitions, and I know that the foundation of success lies most of all in a trained and forged nervous system. And I recall that in his conversation with me, Oswald not once spoke negatively of the president or US government. All his fears were tied to someone from nearby, although he couldn’t definitively explain who was after him and why. It’s a pity for such people hounded through life and made the victims of a greater political game.'”

 

--  Tommy  

 

PS  Here's the 1993 National Enquirer magazine article about the same incident: http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/P Disk/Passport to Assassination/Item 01.pdf

.....................................

 

Gotta bump it for Sandy

 

Tommy,

What I wrote earlier is a mess. Apparently that's  how I write when my six-year-old has the television blasting and I'm tired. Here it is fixed up.

My gut tells me that Oswald was never in Mexico City. Which would mean that Leonov's Oswald/pistol/table story is a fabrication. Interestingly, it is very similar to a story told by Oleg Nechiporenko in his book "Passport to Assassination"  David Lifton -- who believes that version of the story -- was touting the book on another thread and in this post specifically. Lifton paraphrased the story as follows:

"LHO was seated in a room with three (3) officials: Nechiporenko, Kostikov, and Yatsov.   LHO then staged this dramatic scene, in which he was crying, said he was being followed, and then--suddenly--took out a pistol and laid it on the table. One of the three Soviets grabbed at the gun, opened it, and immediately "disarmed" Oswald by taking out the bullets."

I wonder if the Oswald/pistol/table story is a KGB or Russians fabrication used to show others that Oswald was a crackpot who they never would have trusted working for them.

Your hypothesis that Leonov was the blond Oswald seems quite possible to me. If Leonov did impersonate Oswald, maybe he (Leonov) later adopted the Oswald/pistol/table story in an attempt to hide that fact. I mean... he can't be both himself and Oswald simultaneously!

 

[Thomas Graves]

37 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Tommy,

What I wrote earlier is a mess. Apparently that's  how I write when my six-year-old has the television blasting and I'm tired. Here it is fixed up.  [Thou art hereby forgiven.]

My gut tells me that Oswald was never in Mexico City. Which would mean that Leonov's Oswald / pistol / table story is a fabrication. Interestingly, it is very similar to a story told by Oleg Nechiporenko in his book "Passport to Assassination"  [Yes, isn't it though!  --  It's almost as though Nechiporenko and Leonov are trying to are trying to discredit Golitsyn (and to support Noshenko) regarding what might have happened to Oswald vis-a-vis Department 13 in the Soviet Union, isn't it?]  

David Lifton -- who believes that version of the story -- was touting the book on another thread and in this post specifically. Lifton paraphrased the story as follows:

"LHO was seated in a room with three (3) officials: Nechiporenko, Kostikov, and Yatsov.  [Interesting that "Third Secretary" Leonov "wasn't there" imho]  LHO then staged this dramatic scene, in which he was crying, said he was being followed, and then--suddenly--took out a pistol and laid it on the table. One of the three Soviets grabbed at the gun, opened it, and immediately "disarmed" Oswald by taking out the bullets."

I wonder if the Oswald / pistol / table story is a KGB or Russians fabrication used to show others that Oswald was a crackpot who they never would have trusted working for them. [Which would back up Nosenko's claim that the KGB had nothing whatsoever to do with Oswald in Russia, wouldn't it.  But would contradict earlier defector Golitsyn's, huh.]

Your hypothesis that Leonov was the blond Oswald [with Duran and Azcue on Saturday, September 27] seems quite possible to me. If Leonov did impersonate Oswald, maybe he (Leonov) later adopted the Oswald / pistol / table story in an attempt to hide that fact. I mean... he can't be both himself and Oswald simultaneously!

 

To be continued

Edited May 4, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Oh My God.  Are you actually agreeing with me that KGB officer Nikolai Leonov impersonated Oswald on Saturday, September 27, 1963?

Well yeah, it seems that way. But what could possibly be the motive for that?

It seems that Azcue and Duran may have known who Leonov really was. How long had he worked at the Russian Embassy?

This is odd.

[Thomas Graves]

10 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Well yeah, it seems that way. But what could possibly be the motive for that?

It seems that Azcue and Duran may have known who Leonov really was. How long had he worked at the Russian Embassy?

This is odd.

Yes it is, isn't it.

--  Tommy

[Sandy Larsen]

3 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

PS  Do you only tend to believe things that "point toward" an evil, evil  CIA conspiracy, and dismiss everything else?

(I wonder why you asked that question. I don't believe I said anything in that post about the CIA.)

But since you ask....

I believe that most potential JFK assassins make no sense as assassination suspects.

The CIA makes sense. LBJ makes sense. The military makes sense. Most others don't. Name someone or some group and I'll tell you why IMO they don't make sense.

[Thomas Graves]

7 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

(I wonder why you asked that question. I don't believe I said anything in that post about the CIA.)

But since you ask....

I believe that most potential JFK assassins make no sense as assassination suspects.

The CIA makes sense. LBJ makes sense. The military makes sense. Most others don't. Name someone or some group and I'll tell you why IMO they don't make sense.

Never mind.  Too bad you didn't tack this onto your most recent post, seein' as how I'm prohibited by Forum rules from bumping my second-most-recent post for another 23.75 hours or so ...

Edited May 4, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

49 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Tommy,

What I wrote earlier is a mess. Apparently that's  how I write when my six-year-old has the television blasting and I'm tired. Here it is fixed up.  [Thou art hereby forgiven.]

My gut tells me that Oswald was never in Mexico City. Which would mean that Leonov's Oswald / pistol / table story is a fabrication. Interestingly, it is very similar to a story told by Oleg Nechiporenko in his book "Passport to Assassination"  [Yes, isn't it though!  --  It's almost as though Nechiporenko and Leonov are trying to are trying to discredit Golitsyn and to support Noshenko regarding what might have happened to Oswald in the Sovirt Union, isn't it?]  

I need to study Golitsyn and Noshenko. They are new to me.
 

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

David Lifton -- who believes that version of the story -- was touting the book on another thread and in this post specifically. Lifton paraphrased the story as follows:

"LHO was seated in a room with three (3) officials: Nechiporenko, Kostikov, and Yatsov.  [Interesting that "Third Secretary" Leonov "wasn't there" imho]  LHO then staged this dramatic scene, in which he was crying, said he was being followed, and then--suddenly--took out a pistol and laid it on the table. One of the three Soviets grabbed at the gun, opened it, and immediately "disarmed" Oswald by taking out the bullets."

I wonder if the Oswald / pistol / table story is a KGB or Russians fabrication used to show others that Oswald was a crackpot who they never would have trusted working for them.

Your hypothesis that Leonov was the blond Oswald [with Duran and Azcue on Saturday, September 27] seems quite possible to me.

Your interjection in my last sentence above suggests that Leonov was the blond Oswald only with Duran and Azcue, and only on that Saturday. Which implies that the other times Duran saw Oswald, it was a different Oswald (not Leonov). Perhaps the real Oswald.

But how can that be? Duran would see they were different Oswalds. (I don't mention Azcue here because I don't know what days he saw an Oswald.)

Well, if Duran was in on the impersonation ruse, then it would work. Is that what you're thinking?
 

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

If Leonov did impersonate Oswald, maybe he (Leonov) later adopted the Oswald / pistol / table story in an attempt to hide that fact. I mean... he can't be both himself and Oswald simultaneously!

 

 

[Thomas Graves]

On 5/3/2017 at 7:03 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Dear Sandy,

I don't imply anything but you, as usual, infer one heck of a lot.

Typical.

--  Tommy

Edited January 27, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

41 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

47 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

(I wonder why you asked that question. I don't believe I said anything in that post about the CIA.)

But since you ask....

I believe that most potential JFK assassins make no sense as assassination suspects.

The CIA makes sense. LBJ makes sense. The military makes sense. Most others don't. Name someone or some group and I'll tell you why IMO they don't make sense.

Never mind.  Too bad you didn't tack this onto your most recent post, seein' as how I'm prohibited by Forum rules from bumping my second-most-recent post for another 23.75 hours or so ...

Can you briefly explain the need for bumping?

Are you afraid that there are some members who would like to join your topic, but won't because they look only at page-1 topics? (FWIW, I generally look at pages 1 and 2, and sometimes 3. There are plenty of page 1 threads I have little interest in.)

 

[Thomas Graves]

2 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Can you briefly explain the need for bumping?

Are you afraid that there are some members who would like to join your topic, but won't because they look only at page-1 topics? (FWIW, I generally look at pages 1 and 2, and sometimes 3. There are plenty of page 1 threads I have little interest in.)

 

Slightly paranoiac?

Uhhhh ..... maybe because I'm almost constantly editing and / or augmenting?

Just a wild guess.

LOL

Edited May 4, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

On 3/17/2017 at 11:53 AM, Thomas Graves said:

On October 2, 1963, a Russian dude was photographed near the Mexico City Soviet Embassy.  It was one day after the "O-S-W-A-L-D / Kostikov" phone call, and eleven minutes before the famous "Mexico City Mystery Man" was caught on film by the same CIA camera.

Here's the dude I'm talking about, KGB officer Nikolai Leonov.  

(Leonov, a staunch Putin supporter, rose in the KGB to the rank of Lt.General and is currently a member of the Russian Parliament.)

 

 

 

On the left:  The same dude photographed on the same day and in the same place but by a different CIA camera (LILIMITED)

On the right: The dude interpreting for Fidel Castro in Moscow a couple of months earlier. 

The Wikipedia article on Leonov:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Leonov

 

Edit:  Look at that weak chin in all the photos, above.

Please note the thin face in the photo of Leonov interpreting for Castro, above, and in another photo of him, below. Cuban Consul Eusebio Azcue said the thin, blond-haired Oswald he'd dealt with had "a very thin face".

But in this case, Sandy, I'm gonna do it just to help you "confirm" your slightly-paranoiac theory about why I bump so much.

--  Tommy

[Sandy Larsen]

2 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Dear Sandy,

I don't imply anything but you, as usual, infer one hell of a lot.

Typical.

--  Tommy

That's not true. Your interjected remark changed the meaning of what I'd written.