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George Sawtelle

Two Oswalds and Mexico City

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The impersonation of Oswald in MC presented the perfect use of the second Oswald to frame the Oswald who was killed by Jack Ruby. Why wasn´t the second Oswald used in Mexico City?

To answer that question we step back and try to determine who controlled both Oswalds. It´s possible that the two were controlled by different entities. But if that is the case, what´s the purpose of the two Oswalds if they are working independently of eachother? For obvious reasons, the two Oswalds had to be controlled by one individual or one agency. And since we know, thanks to Antonio Veciena, God rest his soul, that David Philips used the Oswald who Ruby killed he must have used the second Oswald also. He must have coordinated their actions.

The fact that two Oswalds were not used in MC eliminates Philips (and the CIA) as the ringleader of the Oswald impersonation in Mexico City. David Philips would definitely have used the second Oswald to frame the Oswald who was killed by Ruby.

The radical right did not use the two Oswalds because they had David Morales doing the impersonation in MC. If the radical right had control of the two they definitely would have used the second Oswald in MC. The fact that the radical right did not use the two Oswalds in MC means they had no knowledge of the two Oswalds.

The second Oswald doing the impersonation would have allowed photos to be taken since the second Oswald was almost a twin of the Oswald who Ruby killed. The impersonation would have been so much more believeable if the second Oswald had been used. It strikes me as unbelieveable that a second Oswald was not used to frame the other Oswald.

But what is most important here is the coordination of the two Oswalds. We know that at least 5 individuals saw a second Oswald in Dealey Plaza the day Kennedy was killed. And since Philips coordinated the two he must be responsible for at least part of the assassination if not all.

What this exercise in logic and deduction tells us is that Philips had a hand in the assassination of JFK. However the assassination was too big for a person such as Philips to carry out on his own, IMHO. Philips was a worker bee , not a ringleader.

What this also tells us is that the radical right did not play a lead role in the assassination since they had no knowlegde of the two Oswalds.

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Mr. Sawtelle….

Fascinating line of thought, but there are a couple of questions here.  Veciana famously saw Bishop/Phillips talking with “Oswald” at the Southland Building in Dallas near the end of August or the start of Sept. 1963.  At this time, Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald was still living in New Orleans, but American born Lee Oswald was in the Dallas area.  I think it’s more likely that Phillips was meeting Lee, and that the two Oswalds looked similar enough that Veciana was fooled by their resemblance.

In Harvey and Lee, John asks, “Why would David Atlee Phillips, head of Cuban Propaganda for the CIA, and assigned to the Mexico City station, meet with Lee Oswald in Dallas?  The obvious answer is that the plot for Lee Oswald to frame Harvey Oswald for the assassination of JFK was already underway, and that Phillips was involved in it.

Evidence from CIA accountant James Wilcott and others indicate that the Oswald Project was under the control of the CIA.  Wilcott swore officers at his station in Japan told him payments he had made to an encrypted account were for “Oswald or the Oswald Project.”  

I have wondered for many years, apparently like you, why Lee Oswald wasn’t used at the embassies, and so it is interesting to see someone ask the same question.  Knowing about the slaughter ahead, maybe he just flat our refused to do it fearing for his life.  I don’t know…. but it is an interesting question.

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Why do you say, Antonio Veciana, rest his soul?

 

Is he not still alive?  He has a book coming out next month.  I read it already since the publisher asked me to write a blurb.

 

Did he die this morning or something?

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I think Mr. Veciano is still alive.

Regarding Mr. Parnell's critique of Wilcott's testimony, Parnell seems unaware of all the other evidence that "Oswald" was CIA.  Disregarding the two Oswald question, here's a summary of that evidence.

20 Facts Indicating “Lee Harvey Oswald” was a CIA Agent

1. CIA accountant James Wilcott said he made payments to an encrypted account for “Oswald or the Oswald Project.”

2. Antonio Veciana said he saw LHO meeting with CIA’s Maurice Bishop/David Atlee Phillips in Dallas in August 1963.

3. A 1978 CIA memo indicates that a CIA operations officer “had run an agent into the USSR, that man having met a Russian girl and eventually marrying her,” a case very similar to Oswald’s and clearly indicating that the Agency ran a “false defector” program in the 1950s.

4. Robert Webster and LHO "defected" a few months apart in 1959, both tried to "defect" on a Saturday, both possessed "sensitive" information of possible value to the Russians, both were befriended by Marina Prusakova, and both returned to the United States in the spring of 1962.

5. Richard Sprague, Richard Schweiker, and CIA agents Donald Norton and Joseph Newbrough all said LHO was associated with the CIA. 

6. CIA employee Donald Deneslya said he read reports of a CIA agent who had worked at a radio factory in Minsk and returned to the US with a Russian wife and child.

7. Kenneth Porter, employee of CIA-connected Collins Radio, left his family to marry (and no doubt monitor) Marina Oswald after LHO’s death.

8. George Joannides, case officer and paymaster for DRE (which LHO had attempted to infiltrate) was put in charge of lying to the HSCA and never told them of his relationship to DRE.

9. For his achievements, Joannides was given a medal by the CIA.

10. FBI took Oswald off the watch list at the same time a CIA cable gave him a clean bill of political health, weeks after Oswald’s New Orleans arrest and less than two months before the assassination.

11. Oswald’s lengthy “Lives of Russian Workers” essay reads like a pretty good intelligence report.

12. Oswald’s possessions were searched for microdots.

13. Oswald owned an expensive Minox spy camera, which the FBI tried to make disappear.

14. Even the official cover story of the radar operator near American U-2 planes defecting to Russia, saying he would give away all his secrets, and returning home without penalty smells like a spy story.

15. CIA Richard Case Nagell clearly knew about the plot to assassinate JFK and LHO’s relation to it, but the CIA ignored his warnings.

16. LHO always seemed poor as a church mouse, until it was time to go “on assignment.”  For his Russian adventure, we’re to believe he saved all the money he needed for first class European hotels and private tour guides in Moscow from the non-convertible USMC script he saved. In the summer of 1963, he once again seemed to have enough money to travel abroad to Communist nations.

17. To this day, the CIA claims it never interacted with Oswald, that it didn’t even bother debriefing him after the “defection.” What utter bs….

18. After he “defected” to the Soviet Union in 1959, bragging to U.S. embassy personnel in Moscow that he would tell the Russians everything he knew about U.S. military secrets, he returns to the U.S. without punishment and is then in 1963 given the OK to travel to Cuba and the Soviet Union again!

19. Allen Dulles, the CIA director fired by JFK, and the Warren Commission clearly wanted the truth hidden from the public to protect sources and methods of intelligence agencies such as the CIA. Earl Warren said, “Full disclosure was not possible for reasons of national security.”

20. President Kennedy and the CIA clearly were at war with each other in the weeks immediately before his assassination, as shown in the infamous Arthur Krock defense of the Agency in the Oct. 3, 1963 New York Times.

Krock_CIA.jpeg?dl=0

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Tracy,

Just going from what you wrote in your fine essay, I gotta ask -- When you say W. was "unable" to recall who the other agent was, do you mean that literally, like "I can't remember," or was it more like "I better not tell you"?

Also, you wrote --

"Wilcott stated that although he heard the allegation the day after JFK was assassinated, he did not check agency disbursement records to verify the claim or report the information to any investigative agencies. He said that the reason he did not do this is because he viewed the information as “shop talk” and “hearsay” and gave it little credence."

It seems to me that a more plausible reason for W to give for not having looked into it at the time (right after the assassination) was that he didn't want to leave any paper-trail indications that he had checked into it.

--  Tommy :sun

 

 

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Jim

Oswald(1) = Ruby killed

Oswald (2) = taller heavier set 

Philips set up Oswald(1) to take the blame for the death of Kennedy. Everything he did to, for or with Oswald(1) was done to set him up. Veciana thought the meeting with Oswald(1) was brief and casual, but I doubt that it was casual. Philips had a reason for Veciana to see Oswald(1). It could have been that Philips had planned work for Veciana and Oswald(1) and wanted Veciana to meet the man who would be working with him (Veciana). Whatever the reason for the meet Philips continued his charade to set up Oswald(1).

If the Oswald Veciana met is Oswald(2) then it would be out of character for Philips to tip his hand on a second Oswald. I doubt Philips ever met with Oswald(2) in public.

It could be that Oswald was in New Orleans as you say. But it´s also very possible Oswald flew to Dallas at the request of Philips for the ¨casual¨ meet with Veciana. A CIA plane or a loaner from one of the Louisiana oil companies could have taken Oswald(1) to Dallas and then taken him back to Louisiana.

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I agree with much of what you say, George, except I think Phillips met with the taller Oswald, who was in Dallas at the time of the meeting.  That Oswald was probably the guy who set up the Oswald killed by Ruby for the assassination, and that Oswald was still in New Orleans when Veciana saw Phillips at the Southland Bldg. There could have been a secret movement of "Oswald" between New Orleans and Dallas, of course, but there is no evidence of that.

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Jim D

I read somewhere that Veciana told his wife to disclose to all that Bishop was Philips after his death. I think she did. I´m not sure now. Is he still alive? If he is still among the living then I apologize for killing Antonio.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, George Sawtelle said:

Jim

Oswald(1) = Ruby killed

Oswald (2) = taller heavier set 

Philips set up Oswald(1) to take the blame for the death of Kennedy. Everything he did to, for or with Oswald(1) was done to set him up. Veciana thought the meeting with Oswald(1) was brief and casual, but I doubt that it was casual. Philips had a reason for Veciana to see Oswald(1). It could have been that Philips had planned work for Veciana and Oswald(1) and wanted Veciana to meet the man who would be working with him (Veciana). Whatever the reason for the meet Philips continued his charade to set up Oswald(1).

If the Oswald Veciana met is Oswald(2) then it would be out of character for Philips to tip his hand on a second Oswald. I doubt Philips ever met with Oswald(2) in public.

It could be that Oswald was in New Orleans as you say. But it´s also very possible Oswald flew to Dallas at the request of Philips for the ¨casual¨ meet with Veciana. A CIA plane or a loaner from one of the Louisiana oil companies could have taken Oswald(1) to Dallas and then taken him back to Louisiana.

"Philips had a reason for Veciana to see Oswald(1). It could have been that Philips had planned work for Veciana and Oswald(1) and wanted Veciana to meet the man who would be working with him (Veciana)."

But forgot to introduce them (even with phony mames) and say, "I want you two to work together."

O-kaaaay.

More likely that Phillips wanted Veciana to meet the one-and-only Oswald, whom Veciana would be manipulating for Phillips, imho.

--  Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Thomas G

Philips wouldn´t introduce them. Veciana didn´t need to know Oswald´s name and Oswald didn´t need to know Veciana name. Philips wouldn´t tell them what he had in mind. At the right time he would tell them what he wanted out of them.

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2 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Tracy,

Just going from what you wrote in your fine essay, I gotta ask -- When you say W. was "unable" to recall who the other agent was, do you mean that literally, like "I can't remember," or was it more like "I better not tell you"?

Also, you wrote --

"Wilcott stated that although he heard the allegation the day after JFK was assassinated, he did not check agency disbursement records to verify the claim or report the information to any investigative agencies. He said that the reason he did not do this is because he viewed the information as “shop talk” and “hearsay” and gave it little credence."

It seems to me that a more plausible reason for W to give for not having looked into it at the time (right after the assassination) was that he didn't want to leave any paper-trail indications that he had checked into it.

--  Tommy :sun

 

 

Tommy,

Wilcott couldn’t remember who first told him that LHO was CIA. From everything I have learned about him, I think he definitely would have told if he could remember. From his testimony:

Goldstein: And who made these references to Oswald being an agent of the CIA?

Wilcott: I can’t remember the exact persons. There was talk about it going on at the station and several months following at the station.

Wilcott did prepare a list of people he worked with and he might have discussed the LHO allegations with. The HSCA interviewed several employees and none confirmed his story.

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Posted (edited)
On 3/20/2017 at 11:21 AM, George Sawtelle said:

Jim

Oswald(1) = Ruby killed

Oswald (2) = taller heavier set 

Philips set up Oswald(1) to take the blame for the death of Kennedy. Everything he did to, for or with Oswald(1) was done to set him up. Veciana thought the meeting with Oswald(1) was brief and casual, but I doubt that it was casual. Philips had a reason for Veciana to see Oswald(1). It could have been that Philips had planned work for Veciana and Oswald(1) and wanted Veciana to meet the man who would be working with him (Veciana). Whatever the reason for the meet Philips continued his charade to set up Oswald(1).

If the Oswald Veciana met is Oswald(2) then it would be out of character for Philips to tip his hand on a second Oswald. I doubt Philips ever met with Oswald(2) in public.

It could be that Oswald was in New Orleans as you say. But it´s also very possible Oswald flew to Dallas at the request of Philips for the ¨casual¨ meet with Veciana. A CIA plane or a loaner from one of the Louisiana oil companies could have taken Oswald(1) to Dallas and then taken him back to Louisiana.

Just a little comment George,

There is no reason to believe "everything" related to Phillips and Oswald was directly connected to the assassination.  If any of a number of plans worked we'd be talking about a different patsy so does it make some sense that these activities were simply part of Oswald's job?  Sure, the appearance of being with Pro Castro forces paints Oswald a commie but it also gets him into groups and next to people he may not have been able to if that connection was not created for him.

The CIA and FBI's first role is that of information gathering.  The fact that these "assets" gathering the data could be used as pawns in other plans is not lost on anyone reading here.  We know all along the movements and "stories" of assets and agents can be used against them at any moment, if in the better interest of the company.

References to Oswald being in Mexico City or Cuba earlier in '63 and in '62 was most assuredly Lee and his relationship to Ruby.  There were no Oswalds in Mexico City at the end of Sept/early-Oct 1963.  If there was an Oswald in Mexico, the evidence of such has surely been compromised - or not yet released.  If a photo of our Oswald in MC at that time surfaces, I will of course eat my words.

Phillips' main Oswald-did-it asset was Alvarado.  They tried to recruit others who would also corroborate the Cuban consulate story of Alvarado with limited success.

The time between Alvarado's first telling of his story and when it gets officially debunked is amazing as we see the "get-Castro" strategy change to "get-Oswald-alone", and then the request for Alvarado to have something useful to do but not too sensitive for the next few months...

This is the man who basically lied to incriminate Oswald and others in a Castro conspiracy that changed from Sept 17/18 to the 27/28... dovetails into Nagell's story, and is summarily dropped and forgotten, like all the other inconvenient MC evidence...

 

Edited by David Josephs

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2 hours ago, George Sawtelle said:

Thomas G

Philips wouldn´t introduce them. Veciana didn´t need to know Oswald´s name and Oswald didn´t need to know Veciana name. Philips wouldn´t tell them what he had in mind. At the right time he would tell them what he wanted out of them.

Dear George,

Just so Veciana couldn't possibly confuse him with "The Other Oswald" (Lee? Harvey?) later, I suppose.

--  Tommy :sun

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