A Couple of Real Gems from the "Harvey and Lee" Website

[Mathias Baumann]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Mathias,

Wilcott didn't know Oswald's real name. He knew his cryptonym, because his disbursements were made by cryptonym. He first learned Oswald's real name from news report after the assassination. Of course at first he didn't know there was a link.

Some case officers were gossiping about the Oswald Project after the assassination. They shouldn't have been, but it happens. One of the case officers told Wilcott that he'd been making disbursements to pay this Oswald fellow. And he told Wilcott what Oswald's cryptonym was. Wilcott checked some personal notes and confirmed that the cryptonym was indeed one that he'd made disbursements to.

 

Sandy,

don't you think it's strange that Wilcott would remember a meaningless cryptonym but not the name of the case officer he furnished the money to? And that this cryptonym doesn't appear anywhere in the CIA's files while there are hundreds of documents on the European assassin QJWIN?

[W. Tracy Parnell]

21 minutes ago, Mathias Baumann said:

Sandy,

don't you think it's strange that Wilcott would remember a meaningless cryptonym but not the name of the case officer he furnished the money to? And that this cryptonym doesn't appear anywhere in the CIA's files while there are hundreds of documents on the European assassin QJWIN?

It's also strange that when Wilcott was asked during his testimony what the cryptonym was he said he couldn't remember. In other words, while his notes reflect what he thought it was, he wasn't willing to repeat that under oath. It's also strange that Wilcott was able to provide a list of many CIA employees but couldn't remember this individual's name. There is nothing to the Wilcott story. Undoubtedly there was gossip floating around among the low level CIA employees and Wilcott mixed this with something he thought he remembered "someone" saying to him and given his far left political views came up with this story. No one from Tokyo would back up his story even his best friend George Breen. And before Jim chimes in with "they were afraid" Wilcott wasn't afraid and there is no evidence anything was done to him for speaking out even after he traveled to Cuba to help Castro promote his propaganda and worked with a far left group to help out CIA people.

[Sandy Larsen]

3 hours ago, Mathias Baumann said:

Sandy,

don't you think it's strange that Wilcott would remember a meaningless cryptonym but not the name of the case officer he furnished the money to? And that this cryptonym doesn't appear anywhere in the CIA's files while there are hundreds of documents on the European assassin QJWIN?

Mathias,

Maybe Wilcott made a mental note of the cryptonym upon learning of its significance, but was cautious in revealing it. Maybe he really did remember the name of the case officer who disbursed Oswald money, but didn't want to get him in trouble. (It seems to me that this case officer might have been the one  who first made the connection between Oswald and the cryptonym.)

I have no idea if a search on most cryptonyms would result in hundreds of hits, close to no hits, or somewhere in between. It seems to me that it depends upon the success of the security measures taken and several other factors.

I've read Wilcott's testimony. I've read some of the twenty page document he wrote for Garrison. Eerily his conspiracy theory is nearly identical with mine. (As was that of Cuban intelligence.) I believe he's credible. (Not that it matters. The preponderance of evidence already points to Oswald being a CIA agent. Wilcott's testimony is only further corroboration.)

[Jim Hargrove]

On 11/23/2017 at 3:59 AM, Mathias Baumann said:

Jim,

I searched the Mary Ferrel website for "RX-ZIM". The only reference to this cryptonym appears to be Wilcott's HSCA interview and John Armstrong's book:

https://www.maryferrell.org/search.html?q=RX-ZIM

Then I did the same thing for QJWIN. Hundreds of cables and memos appeared:

https://www.maryferrell.org/search.html?q=QJWIN

So how come that a low-level accountant learned RX-ZIM's real name when this project was so secret that NO reference to it can be found in the CIA's files at all? That's just not very plausible.

Mathias,

The two hits you found on MFF for “RX-ZIM” include, I think, not Wilcott’s testimony but instead the background notes about him buried deep in HSCA files at the National Archives.  Unless it was redacted, RX-ZIM does not appear in Wilcott’s transcript and, in fact, he allegedly said he didn’t remember it, though these notes clearly indicate otherwise.

I’m putting up two HSCA pages below.  One is that page from the report indicating Wilcott passed some sort of “stress analysis” test (I’m assuming that’s a voice stress reading) and also indicating that RX-ZIM was the CIA cryptonym for the “Oswald Project.”  Above that is a page indicating that Wilcott told an HSCA investigator “he would gladly submit to a polygraph examination.”

 

 

There should be an enormous interest among JFK researchers about “RX-ZIM.”  That so few have even heard of the term speaks volumes.  First, it indicates once again that this case has involved an enormous cover-up by elements of our federal government.  Had I not told you about RX-ZIM, you would have never thought to search for it on MFF. The HSCA clearly had no interest in letting Americans know about Wilcott’s specific accusation about this CIA cryptonym.

Second, this situation sheds light on the current state of JFK assassination research.  I’m aware of only one person on earth who read through every FBI report on the assassination and spent months working at the National Archives in College Park going through the endless documents assembled for this case. John Armstrong found the documents shown above and had photocopies made of them at the Archives.  Then, in a book of more than a thousand pages, he devoted a couple of sentences to RX-ZIM.  Despite endless trolls made by a small army of critics, H&L is the most dangerous book for the status quo in this case I’ve ever seen.

[W. Tracy Parnell]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

There should be an enormous interest among JFK researchers about “RX-ZIM.”

There are several misstatements here. First, the document you obtained the alleged cryptonym from appears to be notes. As far as I can tell, it is unclear just who made the notes and for what purpose. If I am wrong perhaps you can enlighten me.

Wilcott clearly stated that he didn't remember the cryptonym unless you are going to again claim that something you don't agree with or that doesn't support your theories has been altered in some way. Wilcott never claimed his testimony was altered and he had every opportunity to tell the world what the alleged cryptonym was but didn't despite your claim the HSCA was covering up. BTW, the unredacted testimony is now available and the alleged cryptonym was not in there.

So what we have for "proof" of LHO's cryptonym is some notes made by an unknown person. Perhaps they were made by Wilcott or someone who spoke to him such as Leap. But if so, Wilcott would not swear under path what the cryptonym was so he must have been unsure. The sentence "standard two consonants followed by a ... pronounceable word" enforces this belief. 

Finally, I'll agree that H&L is dangerous, but not for the reasons you believe.

[Guest]

Quite a few FBI docs on MC and the arrest of an American in 1962 when JFK was down there for a visit

https://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/2017-release?page=80 (and prolly on the page before that).

It is not really my cuppa but I am trawling through all these pages...so there

[Thomas Graves]

On 3/27/2017 at 8:43 AM, Thomas Graves said:

GEM # 1  (Let's take them one at a time, shall we?)

"The Russian speaking youth, possibly of Hungarian parents, was brought to the U.S. following World War II and given the name HARVEY Oswald."

Question:  If the mother tongue of "Harvey" (the young boy who eventually joined the Marines, "defected" to the USSR, married Marina, and was killed by Jack Ruby on 11/24/63) was Hungarian (a Turkic language from Central Asia), and he was already speaking Russian (a highly-inflected, Indo-European language) when he came to the U.S., how are we to explain, then, the fact that "Harvey" spoke such grammatically-correct, accent-free English later in life? 

--  Tommy

PS  I think I can speak with some authority on this, having taught English for seven years in a country that speaks a Slavic, i.e. Russian-like language, the Czech Republic.  And I remember the Hungarian Toth brothers at La Jolla High School back around 1965, who probably came to the U.S. around the time of the 1956 Hungarian Revolt against the U.S.S.R. 

bumped

[Sandy Larsen]

33 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

On 3/27/2017 at 9:43 AM, Thomas Graves said:

Question:  If the mother tongue of "Harvey" .... was Hungarian .... and he was already speaking Russian .... when he came to the U.S., how are we to explain, then, the fact that "Harvey" spoke such grammatically-correct, accent-free English later in life? 

bumped

 

Tommy,

A lot of young immigrants to the U.S. learn to speak accent-free English within a few years.

I'm pretty sure that it is generally older immigrants who have trouble shaking an accent.

My wife works with an illegal Mexican couple whose oldest child came to the U.S. just a few years ago at the age of 16. A couple years later we ran into him at a small clothing store he'd gotten a job at. We were amazed with his accent-free English.

In contrast, I once had a Vietnamese girlfriend who immigrated here at the age of 19 or 20. Ten year later when I met her she still had a strong accent, and still does after another thirty years.

You get all kinds.

I personally don't like to use Oswald's Russian speaking ability as anything more than a weak sort of evidence. Because, for example, there ARE some people who learn languages quickly. However, I do find this evidence useful in trying to understand why the CIA would take an interest in this boy. Similarly, I don't use the report of that woman who called a Mrs. Tippit about the Hungarian angle as anything more than weak evidence, because it isn't corroborated. But I do find it useful in trying to understand where the boy came from and how he learned Russian.

Indeed, if it weren't for what I know about Oswald's Russian speaking ability, and the story behind that call to Mrs. Tippit, I think I'd be quite perplexed as to why there were two linked Oswalds at all.

 

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Tommy,

A lot of young immigrants to the U.S. learn to speak accent-free English within a few years.

I'm pretty sure that it is generally older immigrants who have trouble shaking an accent.

My wife works with an illegal Mexican couple whose oldest child came to the U.S. just a few years ago at the age of 16. A couple years later we ran into him at a small clothing store he'd gotten a job at. We were amazed with his accent-free English.

In contrast, I once had a Vietnamese girlfriend who immigrated here at the age of 19 or 20. Ten year later when I met her she still had a strong accent, and still does after another thirty years.

You get all kinds.

I personally don't like to use Oswald's Russian speaking ability as anything more than a weak sort of evidence. Because, for example, there ARE some people who learn languages quickly. However, I do find this evidence useful in trying to understand why the CIA would take an interest in this boy. Similarly, I don't use the report of that woman who called a Mrs. Tippit about the Hungarian angle as anything more than weak evidence, because it isn't corroborated. But I do find it useful in trying to understand where the boy came from and how he learned Russian.

Indeed, if it weren't for what I know about Oswald's Russian speaking ability, and the story behind that call to Mrs. Tippit, I think I'd be quite perplexed as to why there were two linked Oswalds at all.

Sandy,

With all due respect, do you realize how good your "Harvey's" spoken English was as regards syntax, grammar. and vocabulary?

Better than most college students today, IMHO.

He even uses gerunds correctly!

--  Tommy 

[Jim Hargrove]

According to George De Mohrenschildt, a Russian émigré who taught the Russian language at a university, Oswald’s Russian was arguably better than his English.

Vladimir Petrov, the head of the Slavic Language Department at Yale University, wrote of a letter Oswald wrote from Russia to U.S. Senator John Tower: “I am satisfied that letter was not written by him [Harvey Oswald]. It was written by a Russian with an imperfect knowledge of English."

 

Oswald could read, write, and speak Russian while still in the U.S. Marine Corps prior to visiting the USSR.

 

 

 

Oswald’s English speaking skills were quite good, although you can hear more of a foreign accent than the sort of U.S. southern dialect you would expect to hear from someone with his alleged biography.  But his written skills were not good at all.

 

The first sentence in the letter above reads, “Sorry too take so long to write but I thought sometime might have come up but we’re still waiting.”

Dr. James Norwood has written a wonderful essay on Oswald’s remarkable Russian language skills at the H&L website.  See his article here:

Oswald’s Proficiency in the Russian Language

[Thomas Graves]

Just now, Jim Hargrove said:

According to George De Mohrenschildt, a Russian émigré who taught the Russian language at a university, Oswald’s Russian was arguably better than his English.

Vladimir Petrov, the head of the Slavic Language Department at Yale University, wrote of a letter Oswald wrote from Russia to U.S. Senator John Tower: “I am satisfied that letter was not written by him [Harvey Oswald]. It was written by a Russian with an imperfect knowledge of English."

 

Oswald could read, write, and speak Russian while still in the U.S. Marine Corps prior to visiting the USSR.

 

 

 

Oswald’s English speaking skills were quite good, although you can hear more of a foreign accent than the sort of U.S. southern dialect you would expect to hear from someone with his alleged biography.  But his written skills were not good at all.

 

The first sentence in the letter above reads, “Sorry too take so long to write but I thought sometime might have come up but we’re still waiting.”

Dr. James Norwood has written a wonderful essay on Oswald’s remarkable Russian language skills at the H&L website.  See his article here:

Oswald’s Proficiency in the Russian Language

Jim,

With all due respect, are you referring to the George de Mohrenschildt whom CI/SIG's Edward Clare Petty suspected, based on some VENONA decrypts, was a long-term KGB "illegal"?

THAT George de Mohrenschildt?

--  Tommy 

[Sandy Larsen]

11 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Sandy,

With all due respect, do you realize how good your "Harvey's" spoken English was as regards syntax, grammar. and vocabulary?

Better than most college students today, IMHO.

He even uses gerunds correctly!

--  Tommy 

 

Yes... yet interestingly he had trouble with his writing in English. I wonder if that can tell us anything.

 

[Thomas Graves]

22 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Yes... yet interestingly he had trouble with his writing in English. I wonder if that can tell us anything.

 

Sandy,

The English language is very difficult to spell correctly, for the simple reason that many words aren't spelled the way they sound. Czech (and I suppose Russian, too, because it, too, is a Slavic language) is the exact opposite -- easy to spell because all of its words ARE spelled exactly the way they sound.

Unless, of course, Oswald was sending coded messages that way to his KGB handlers.

LOL

--  Tommy 

I know that Oswald made a lot of punctuation errors, too, but I'd chalk that up (pardon the pun) to his relative lack of formal larnin'.

Edited January 29, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Jim Hargrove]

17 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Jim,

With all due respect, are you referring to the George de Mohrenschildt whom CI/SIG's Edward Clare Petty suspected, based on some VENONA decrypts, was a long-term KGB "illegal"?

THAT George de Mohrenschildt?

--  Tommy 

Many researchers consider De Mohrenschildt to be, at the very least, a CIA asset and, whichever side you believe he served, I wouldn’t trust his word alone about much either.  But in an employment interview held on October 4, 1963 (JOBCO Employment Agency in Dallas) HARVEY Oswald said De Morhrenschildt was his best friend.  As a native speaking Russian with obvious fluency in English, AND as a university language instructor, AND as HARVEY Oswald's closest friend, who on earth was in a better position to discuss Oswald’s remarkable Russian fluency than De Mohrenschildt?  How can you ignore him on this issue?  What motivation did he have to lie about Oswald's fluency in Russian?

Even more importantly, though, De Mohrenschildt's views about Oswald’s fluency were corroborated by other White Russians in and around Dallas:

Natalie Ray was asked by Commission attorney Wesley Liebeler, "Did he
(Oswald) speak to you in Russian?" Mrs. Ray replied, "Yes; just perfect; re­-
ally surprised me .... it's just too good speaking Russian for be such a short time,
you know .... . said, 'How come you speak so good Russian? I been here so long
and still don't speak very well English.'"

George Bouhe was asked by Liebeler, "Did Oswald's command of the Rus­-
sian language seem to be about what you would expect from him, having been
in Russia for that period of time? Would you say it was good?" Bouhe replied,
"I would say very good."170

Mrs. Teofil (Anna) Meller was asked by Liebeler, "Do you think that his com­
mand of the Russian language was better than you would expect for the pe­-
riod of time that he had spent in Russia?" Mrs. Meller replied, "Yes; absolutely
better than I would expect."

Elena Hall was asked by Liebeler, "In your opinion, Lee did have a good
command of the Russian language?" Mrs. Hall replied, "Very good ..... "

Mrs. Dymitruk was asked by Commission attorney Albert Jenner, "He did
speak Russian?" Mrs. Dymitruk replied, "Yes; and I was really surprised-in
short time, he spoke nicely."

George DeMohrenschildt told Jenner, "He loved to speak Russian ..... he spoke
fluent Russian ..... he had a remarkable fluency in Russian ..... he preferred to
speak Russian than English any time. He always would switch from English
to Russian."

Peter Gregory told Warren Commission Representative Gerald Ford, "I
thought that Lee Oswald spoke (Russian) with a Polish accent, that is why I
asked him if he was of Polish decent."

--from Harvey and Lee, p. 426, Copyright © 2003 by John Armstrong.  All rights reserved.

By the way, on the same day (October 4, 1963) that HARVEY Oswald was filling out an application and being interviewed in Dallas, LEE Oswald was 400 miles away in Alice, Texas. De Mohrenschildt's shotgun death while being sought out for an interview by the HSCA is one of the most suspicious deaths in this entire sordid affair.

[Thomas Graves]

10 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Many researchers consider De Mohrenschildt to be, at the very least, a CIA asset and, whichever side you believe he served, I wouldn’t trust his word alone about much either.  But in an employment interview held on October 4, 1963 (JOBCO Employment Agency in Dallas) HARVEY Oswald said De Morhrenschildt was his best friend.  As a native speaking Russian with obvious fluency in English, AND as a university language instructor, AND as HARVEY Oswald's closest friend, who on earth was in a better position to discuss Oswald’s remarkable Russian fluency than De Mohrenschildt?  How can you ignore him on this issue?  What motivation did he have to lie about Oswald's fluency in Russian?

Even more importantly, though, De Mohrenschildt's views about Oswald’s fluency were corroborated by other White Russians in and around Dallas:

Natalie Ray was asked by Commission attorney Wesley Liebeler, "Did he
(Oswald) speak to you in Russian?" Mrs. Ray replied, "Yes; just perfect; re­-
ally surprised me .... it's just too good speaking Russian for be such a short time,
you know .... . said, 'How come you speak so good Russian? I been here so long
and still don't speak very well English.'"

George Bouhe was asked by Liebeler, "Did Oswald's command of the Rus­-
sian language seem to be about what you would expect from him, having been
in Russia for that period of time? Would you say it was good?" Bouhe replied,
"I would say very good."170

Mrs. Teofil (Anna) Meller was asked by Liebeler, "Do you think that his com­
mand of the Russian language was better than you would expect for the pe­-
riod of time that he had spent in Russia?" Mrs. Meller replied, "Yes; absolutely
better than I would expect."

Elena Hall was asked by Liebeler, "In your opinion, Lee did have a good
command of the Russian language?" Mrs. Hall replied, "Very good ..... "

Mrs. Dymitruk was asked by Commission attorney Albert Jenner, "He did
speak Russian?" Mrs. Dymitruk replied, "Yes; and I was really surprised-in
short time, he spoke nicely."

George DeMohrenschildt told Jenner, "He loved to speak Russian ..... he spoke
fluent Russian ..... he had a remarkable fluency in Russian ..... he preferred to
speak Russian than English any time. He always would switch from English
to Russian."

Peter Gregory told Warren Commission Representative Gerald Ford, "I
thought that Lee Oswald spoke (Russian) with a Polish accent, that is why I
asked him if he was of Polish decent."

--from Harvey and Lee, p. 426, Copyright © 2003 by John Armstrong.  All rights reserved.

By the way, on the same day (October 4, 1963) that HARVEY Oswald was filling out an application and being interviewed in Dallas, LEE Oswald was 400 miles away in Alice, Texas. De Mohrenschildt's shotgun death while being sought out for an interview by the HSCA is one of the most suspicious deaths in this entire sordid affair.

Jim,

With all due respect, did I say anything in my bumped post, above, about your Harvey's alleged Russian language fluency, or was I talking about his documented and truly impressive ability to speak the English language correctly? 

I'm talking about the one-and-only Lee Harvey Oswald's spoken English here, Jim, and specifically about his excellent command of syntax, grammar, and vocabulary.

"Absolutely incredible" for a guy whose first two languages, you claim, were non-Indo-European Hungarian, and Indo-European (but highly inflected) Russian! 

LOL!

--  Tommy 

Edited January 30, 2018 by Thomas Graves