A Couple of Real Gems from the "Harvey and Lee" Website

[Sandy Larsen]

20 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

I've already debunked your 21 so-called "facts" about LHO and the CIA.

 

Translation:  I've already given my opinion on  your 21 so-called "facts" about LHO and the CIA.

 

[Thomas Graves]

41 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Michael,

Let me raise some vital facts of the case of LHO getting into the USSR.    First, LHO was only 19 years old when applied for entry into the USSR   Cold War or not, most adults are sympathetic to the young.   Adults think of teenagers as ignorant and have a lot to learn, so we are sympathetic and give breaks to the young that we wouldn't give to adults.

Also, LHO cut his own wrists when he was denied entry.  He was 19 years old and he cut his own wrists -- he was going to get sympathy -- playing on human emotions, across political barriers.    

Also, the US State Department compared LHO's position with the dozens of other Americans who had applied to enter into the USSR because of their Marxist beliefs.   In a maximum of two years, said John McVickar, State Department official for the US Embassy in the USSR in 1963, most of these guys change their minds and beg to return to the USA.    Some of them made it, some of them didn't.   

McVickar told LHO he was going to hold back his US Passport -- doing LHO a big favor -- so that LHO could change his mind at anytime.   LHO agreed to this plan -- but he was too young at the time to know what a big favor McVickar did for him.   It was the humane thing to do, because Oswald was only 19 years old, and had cut his wrists to get into the USSR.  McVickar would have done the same for any other 19 year old, I believe.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul,

How many of his wrists did he cut?  Botkin Hospital records say two, but in his Historical Diary, he says one, IIRC.

--  Tommy 

Yep.  See third line from bottom, first page, and mentioning of wrist / rist (singular) at least three other times.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ../jfkinfo2/jfk4/f491.htm

Edited February 5, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

11 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

Translation:  I've already given my opinion on  your 21 so-called "facts" about LHO and the CIA.

 

REALLY?

OK, let's review.  Here are my 21 rebuttals of Jim's alleged 21 "facts":

*** 21 Facts Showing that the CIA was NOT the "Handler" of Lee Harvey Oswald ***

1. CIA accountant James Wilcott only said that some CIA agent "told him" that he was making payments to an encrypted account for the Oswald Project.  Sheer hearsay and rumor; more likely, mocking Wilcott to his face.

2.  Even if Antonio Veciana did see DAP and LHO together in the summer of 1963 in Dallas, it was most likely in the context of killing Fidel Castro (DAP's and Veciana's obsession) and not JFK.  (Jim Garrison already proved that LHO worked with Guy Banister in the context of a Fake FPCC intended to bring down Fidel Castro).

3. It's nonsense to imagine that no "CIA operations officer in the USSR met a Russian girl and eventually married,” so that you have to read LHO into that sentence.  Though former CIA agent Victor Marchetti confirmed that the CIA did have a “fake defector” program in the 1950s, that in-itself is no proof that LHO was part of it.  LHO could still have acted on his own.

4. The fact that Robert Webster and LHO "fake defected" a few months apart in 1959, claiming  "sensitive" information, that is easily explained by coincidence.  What other reason would a young man give?  Marchetti said there were scores of such boys in the program, and the US State Department said there were scores of actual defectors during that time frame.  The fact that these two guys met Marina Prusakova in Minsk near the same time, also makes sense -- they were both there at the same time, and the USSR sent all "questionable defectors" to Minsk for observation.  As for Marina Prusakova, she hated the USSR and would do anything to move to the USA. So, she got around.

5. Although Richard Sprague, Richard Schweiker, and CIA agents Donald Norton and Joseph Newbrough agreed that LHO was associated with the CIA, you could add hundreds of thousands of other names of people who *also* share the same *opinion* without any final proof.  These guys had no proof, either. 

6. Again -- it is absurd to imagine that no CIA "contact" ever worked at a radio factory in Minsk and returned to the US with a Russian wife and child.  People get married under all sorts of conditions, and then they have babies.  Minsk was a Soviet observation town for "questionable defectors."  There were far too many "fake defectors" and "real defectors" and "double agent defectors" in the USSR in those days to justify a claim that LHO (who had just turned 20) was that "contact."

7. It is nonsense that Kenneth Porter fell in love with young, beautiful Marina Oswald in 1964, and left his family to marry her -- for the sole purpose of monitoring Marina for the CIA!   Actually, men leave their wives for younger women all the time.

8. George Joannides was a CIA agent, so naturally he lied about his CIA cases, as well as the CIA cases of other CIA officers.  It's what CIA agents are paid to do.  Didn't you know?  In 1978, for the HSCA, the President's order of secrecy in the JFK Records was still in force.  So, nothing the HSCA could say or do would release those FBI and CIA secrets.  PERIOD.

9. The CIA often gave medals to CIA agents, like Joannides, who kept CIA secrets under pressure. 

10. The FBI and the CIA do not coordinate actions, but compete with each other.  The FBI has the duty of Domestic crime.  The CIA has the duty of International crime.  The clash occurs when criminals travel inside and outside of the USA.  Then who owns the criminal's file?  To this very day the FBI and CIA cannot agree.  The case of Lee Harvey Oswald was an FBI matter from June, 1962, until November, 1963.  The CIA (as carefully proved by Bill Simpich) was clueless about the Mexico City telephone impersonation of LHO.  This is because the JFK plot was Domestic.  The FBI knew.  We should first scour the released FBI Records, and leave the CIA Records as secondary.  It seems to me that most CTers are doing the opposite. 

11. Oswald’s lengthy “Lives of Russian Workers” essay reads like a high-school dropout's idea (or some biased CTers idea) of a pretty good intelligence report.

12. Oswald’s possessions were searched for microdots, because Oswald foolishly used the word, "microdots" in his address book.  Ask yourself -- what competent US Agent uses the secret word, "microdots" in his personal address book?   Answer: NONE.

13. Oswald owned no Minox spy camera -- that was the property of the wealthy, young Michael Paine, who could afford three cars, two domiciles as well as such expensive toys. 

14. The official WC story of the radar operator near U-2 planes defecting to Russia and returning home without a penalty smells like a spy story to a Hollywood hopeful.  The US State Department explained it realistically: Oswald never defected -- he never surrendered his US Passport.  He never applied for Russian citizenship.  He never joined the Communist Party in Russia.  He was 19 years old when he was first admitted into Russia.  He was an intellectually bright and emotionally retarded young man, having fun.  His pals in Russia were the 'naughty' kids, including Marina Prusakova, who hated the USSR, and couldn't wait to get to the USA.  LHO laughed all the way through the fun and games.  (Actually, he never had it so good.  When he arrived back in the USA, he fell into the depths of minimum-wage poverty.  Marina was shocked, because LHO was relatively well-to-do in Russia.)

15. CIA double agent Richard Case Nagell knew about some plot to assassinate some world leader -- it could have been Fidel Castro.  Nagell warned LHO that if he succeeded in getting a Visa to Cuba as he was seeking -- then Nagell would have to shoot LHO dead, just in order to keep his own cover as a double-agent.  LHO sat in his kitchen and wept about that.  He worried about the Mexico City trip, and instead tried to make a plan to hijack some airplane or other to Cuba.  The CIA didn't ignore anything Nagel said.

16. LHO did save all his US Marine's money to splurge on a European holiday.  His Marine buddies testified that he rarely went off the El Toro base.  He was tight with money.  He gave his ailing mother $100 and then went to Europe to splurge for the first time in his life.  When Oswald was nearly out of that money, he asked his mother to send him $100 to apply to the Albert Schweitzer college -- and she did, and Oswald did apply with that money -- but then he changed his mind and "fake defected" to the USSR instead.  He was bright -- but not bright enough.  He lacked the Right Stuff. 

17. When LHO returned to the USA, it was the FBI who debriefed him, because he was now a US Domestic problem.  (Actually, however, the CIA did admit that they considered interviewing Oswald for a possible job in 1962, but big bureaucracies move slow; in the long run they decided against it (probably after the Walker shooting.)

18. The US State Department investigated LHO very carefully.  They worked with LHO to ensure that he never surrendered his passport.  He was 19 years old, for goodness sake!  The US State Department had seen many cases like this by 1959.  Many of the boys changed their minds after only a few months.  None lasted much more than two years.  The US State Department would wait it out.  When LHO did change his mind in about two years, the US State Department reached out to help him, and even lent him money to return with his young family.   Finally -- you're mistaken, Jim, about LHO getting an "OK" to travel to Cuba.  That never happened.

19. It wasn't just Allen Dulles and Earl Warren who wanted the JFK Truth hidden for 75 years -- it was also FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover and LBJ as well as perhaps a dozen other powerful people in Washington DC.  National Security was the reason they cited -- and history will show they told the truth.  Which is to say, they told us the Truth about why they had to withhold the Truth for so long: National Security.

20. CIA's Ann Egerter's testimony to the HSCA was a random comment that has been taken out of context, like a "gotcha!"  All she said was that a CIA 201 file was to "investigate Agency employees."   Her remark was not presented as the final definition of a CIA 201 file, but CIA-did-it fanatics treat it that way.

21. JFK and the CIA were not at war with each other.  Despite angry feelings on both sides, as shown in the NY Times, and even after JFK shouted that he wanted to rip up the CIA to pieces and toss them to the wind -- those words were said in anger over the Bay of Pigs.  Anybody would be angry.  But afterwards, JFK actually increased the funding for the CIA.   

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited February 5, 2018 by Paul Trejo

[Jim Hargrove]

Uh-huh,  and here is my rebuttal to an earlier version of your attempt to debunk the facts.

To Paul Trejo:

 

(My responses are in red.)

 

1. CIA accountant James Wilcott admitted that his opinion was based on rumors by field agents. James just took their word for it. He was not a field agent, and knew nothing other than what the field agents told him -- and they teased him.

 

Mr. Wilcott testified just the opposite to what you say above:

 

Mr. Preyer. That was shop talk, speculation, I gather;

people were saying that the CIA is somehow connected with it.

 

Mr. Wilcott. Well, I believed it to be a little more

than speculation, that the source at least of this kind of

talk was, I believe, to be something more serious than

speculation.

 

Mr. Preyer. It was your conclusion from that talk that

some of these people might have knowledge that he was a CIA

agent rather than that they were speculating about it?

 

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, sir.

 

Mr. Preyer. And you did mention the case officer who

came in and told you that the money he had drawn out a few

weeks earlier was drawn out for Oswald?

 

Mr. Wilcott. Yes, sir.

 

Mr. Preyer. He stated that as a fact and not that he

believed it was drawn out for Oswald or it could have been or

something like that?

 

Mr. Wilcott. It was stated as a fact -- Oswald or the

Oswald project.

 

2. Antonio Veciana did see LHO in a meeting with CIA’s Maurice Bishop/David Atlee Phillips in Dallas in August 1963 -- in the context of killing Fidel Castro. That's what Alpha-66 was set up to do. They had no other purpose. David Atlee Phillips describes this Kill-Fidel project and LHO's involvement in his 1988 manuscript, "The AMLASH Legacy."

 

Only you would believe anything Phillips had to say. Soon after the Phillips/Oswald meeting, the framing of the “Oswald” killed by Jack Ruby began in earnest in and around Dallas. The Phillips/Oswald meeting is further proof that Oswald was an agent.

 

3. Robert Webster and LHO were only two of scores of fake defectors to the USSR in 1959. This was revealed by former CIA Agent Victor Marchetti, who said it was an ONI (Office of Naval Intelligence) "dangle" operation. It was for beginners. When LHO was recruited for this beginner's mission, he was still 19 years old (and a high-school dropout, and could not drive a car, and could hardly spell). LHO was being "tested."

 

I did a quick web search and found several CIA-affiliated people who were with the Agency by the age of 20. You should have no trouble doing the same thing. By your account David Atlee Phillips was impressed enough with “Oswald’s” test to meet with him in Dallas in 1963.

 

4. All of the HSCA leaders, including Richard Sprague, Richard Schweiker, and CIA agents Donald Norton and Joseph Newbrough had nothing but their opinions to offer. They were not allowed to see the thousands of JFK documents that the US Government kept secret in the 1970's. All they could do was guess. Their opinion was no more valid than the average Congressman – useless.

 

That’s your opinion. I believe the men listed above were far closer to the actual events being discussed here than you were.

 

5. Donald Deneslya read a lot of things. As Marchetti said, there were scores of fake defectors to the USSR in that program. It is certainly possible that many of them got married in Russia. They worked all over Russia. Donald made no positive identification.

 

Deneslya said he read reports of a CIA agent who had worked at a radio factory in Minsk and returned to the US with a Russian wife and child. Are you suggesting there was a different CIA agent who had worked at a radio factory in Minsk and returned to the US with a Russian wife and child?

 

6. Kenneth Porter, worked for Collins Radio -- and some people try to force this into a CIA plot. Porter fell in love with Marina Oswald -- and some people try to make this into a CIA plot. It's naked fiction -- intended to sell books.

 

Sure… Here’s what one those books written to tell the truth says:

 

Collins Radio was located at 1200 North Alma Road in Richardson, Texas and held major communications contracts for the military and CIA, including the installation of communications towers in Vietnam. On November 1, 1963 the New York Times published a photo of a ship named the "Rex"and a story involving commandos that were sent ashore from the ship in Cuba on October 22-23, 1963. The Commandos were captured on a Cuban beach with high-powered sniper rifles and admitted they had been trained by the CIA to kill Cuban leaders. The "Rex" was leased to Collins Radio of Richardson, Texas. (Harvey and Lee, pp. 872-873.)

 

7. George Joannides, case officer and paymaster for DRE (which LHO had attempted to infiltrate) was hired by the CIA to lie to the HSCA. Big deal -- *everybody* in the US Government lied to the HSCA. This is because the HSCA was merely Congress, and it was a Presidential mandate by LBJ in 1964 (along with Earl Warren, J. Edgar Hoover and Allen Dulles) that the true JFK Records be sealed for 75 years. No act of Congress could change that. The Cold War with the USSR was still raging.

 

Hey, you’re like the guy who gets pulled over for speeding and then tells the cop, “but everyone else was speeding too.” Do you expect that defense to work better here than in traffic court? The fact remains that the CIA put a fellow in charge of lying to the HSCA who had specialized knowledge—that he kept to himself—about “Lee Harvey Oswald.”

 

8. FBI took Oswald off the watch list in 1962, and so did the State Department. Hosty tried to put LHO back on the FBI watch list in early 1963, and failed. It was LHO himself who put himself back on in August 1963 in New Orleans in connection with the FPCC. But as Hoover and Belmont testified to the Warren Commission -- LHO never at any time showed any signs of political violence. Because of that crucial fact, the FBI took LHO off of their watch list in October. The CIA had nothing to do with it. Any shenannigans belonged to James Hosty alone.

 

The fact remains that the FBI and the CIA—at exactly the same time just weeks before the assassination—made clear efforts to diminish Federal monitoring of “Lee Harvey Oswald.” And you, apparently, find nothing suspicious about this.

 

9. Oswald’s lengthy “Lives of Russian Workers” essay is dry writing, and he probably didn't write it alone. He usually had at least one misspelled word for each sentence, and the spelling in this essay is very good -- so somebody else helped him. LHO was a CIA wannabe. He was trying like mad to get their attention -- but he just wasn't smart enough. Proof: LHO became a Patsy.

 

I agree someone helped him. After all, English wasn’t Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald’s primary language. But it is a fine report, and was surely of considerable interest for intelligence agencies at the time who wanted to learn more about the life of Russian workers.

 

10. Oswald’s possessions were searched for microdots because like a fool he included the word, "microdots" in his diary and personal papers. Nothing was found.

 

If memory serves, there were some individual letters cut out of some of “Oswald’s” writings. Perhaps to remove microdots? Your lack of suspicion about “Oswald” as an intelligence agent is stunning!

 

11. Oswald owned an expensive Minox spy camera; like many Private Detectives and other spy wannabes. The FBI mucked with all JFK evidence, starting on 11/22/1963, because of J. Edgar Hoover's order that everything must fit a "Lone Nut" scenario. This was for National Security purposes. Nobody denies that anymore.

 

But the fact remains that owning a “spy camera” is hardly an indication that you are not a spy, eh?

 

12. The official cover story of LHO was explained fully by former CIA agent Victor Marchetti. LHO was a trainee "dangle" in the USSR.

 

Amazing, then, that the CIA worked so hard to distance itself from him, and that David Atlee Phillips met with him a few weeks before the assassination, and that George Joannides, a CIA agent who should have had specialized knowledge about “Oswald,” was hired by the CIA to lie to the HSCA and hide his specialized knowledge of Oswald, and on and on.

 

13. CIA agent Richard Case Nagell was a double-agent and was neurotic as they come. Anything he said had to be taken with a grain of salt. Everybody who ever interviewed him admitted that -- even Dick Russell.

 

That’s all irrelevant. All you have to do was look at the verifiable evidence of his case.

14. LHO was always poor as a church mouse in the USA. In the USSR however, in addition to his low radio factory salary, he got an equal amount from the Red Cross -- so that his salary was the same as a manager's salary. Also, LHO was allowed to stay in a new apartment complex in Minsk, which was reserved for privileged people. This was one reason Marina fell in love with LHO. In the spring of 1962, the State Department called LHO's mother and demanded that she search for funds to pay LHO's way back to the USA. Marguerite Oswald made a sweeping fund raising tour to beg for money. She came up empty-handed. The State Department, out of compassion, loaned the cash to LHO. Back in the USA, LHO again became as poor as a church-mouse.

 

Wrong. LHO was staying at first class hotels on the way to Moscow and during his first days in Moscow. He also hired expensive private tourist guides at the very beginning of his stay.

 

15. It simply isn't the CIA standard operating procedure to bypass the State Department. LHO never defected. LHO never became a USSR citizen. Naturally, then, LHO could never join the KGB. The State Department grilled LHO for that, and gave him a clean bill of health. Also, when LHO returned to the USA, the FBI took charge of LHO, and debriefed LHO two times, and gave him a clean bill of health. You make it sound like the CIA had nothing better to do in the Cold War than to watch LHO. There were already enough people watching LHO. It's a fact.

 

You sure talk as if you know a lot about the CIA. Why didn’t you know about the “family jewels?”

To this day, the CIA claims it never interacted with Oswald, that it didn’t even bother debriefing him after the “defection.” What utter bs….

 

[Thomas Graves]

3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

 

11. Oswald owned an expensive Minox spy camera; like many Private Detectives and other spy wannabes. The FBI mucked with all JFK evidence, starting on 11/22/1963, because of J. Edgar Hoover's order that everything must fit a "Lone Nut" scenario. This was for National Security purposes. Nobody denies that anymore.

 But the fact remains that owning a “spy camera” is hardly an indication that you are not a spy, eh?

 

 

Jack Ruby or his roommate, George Senator, apparently also had a Minox "spy camera" in 1960, so maybe they weren't all that hard to come by.

https://www.dmagazine.com/frontburner/2017/12/new-film-footage-of-jack-ruby-surfaces/

 

--  Tommy 

Edited February 5, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Ray Mitcham]

"The clip shows Ruby standing with a friend, who some careful viewers believe is George Senator, Ruby’s then-roommate. Bosse believes Senator is holding a Minox “spy” camera, a very small and expensive new product that was being advertised at the time in the Dallas Morning News and sold in a number of local stores."

" a small and expensive new product". Hardly what a "bum" like Oswald would buy.

[Paul Trejo]

Jim,

You're mistaken in every single point.  Your bias defends your CT from common sense.

Sincerely,

--Paul Trejo

[Andrew Prutsok]

Just curious whether anyone else on here knows of evidence that exists somewhere that shows them being in two different places at the same time? I don't believe I've encountered anything like that about me. It seemed to happen quite a bit to Mr. Oswald. I'm just curious if this is a common circumstance and I am just exceptional?

[Steve Thomas]

On 2/5/2018 at 9:45 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

Jim,

But the fact remains that owning a “spy camera” is hardly an indication that you are not a spy, eh?

 

I always thought the Minox was a "spy" camera too, but ti turns out that it was a pretty common type camera. They were expensive, but not not unheard of.

https://flashbackdallas.com/2017/12/07/newly-discovered-footage-of-jack-ruby-1960/

 

“He’s holding a Minox “spy” camera, which was an expensive tiny camera which had been sold for years in several stores in Dallas (and which was offered in classified ads in The News in 1960 for $75) — by the man’s look of utter fascination with it, it appears that it probably belonged to Ruby.” The man can be seen looking through it in the longer clip at the :50 mark.) (See one of the first Minox ads found in a Dallas paper — sold by Linz Jewelers in 1951 — here, and in the year of this footage, in 1960, in a Neiman-Marcus ad, here.)"

The "suggestion" that it might belong to Ruby is intriguing.

 

Classified ad for Minox camera with leather carrying case: $117.50

https://flashbackdallas.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/minox_linz-ad_1951.jpg

 

Steve Thomas

[Jim Hargrove]

3 hours ago, Andrew Prutsok said:

Just curious whether anyone else on here knows of evidence that exists somewhere that shows them being in two different places at the same time? I don't believe I've encountered anything like that about me. It seemed to happen quite a bit to Mr. Oswald. I'm just curious if this is a common circumstance and I am just exceptional?

You're quite right.  Simultaneous appearances far apart happened all the time with the Amazing "Lee Harvey Oswald."  Earlier in this very thread are documented examples, including written evidence from the National Archives, such as the following:

He attended public school in New York City and New Orleans simultaneously....

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/23677-a-couple-of-real-gems-from-the-harvey-and-lee-website/?do=findComment&comment=358669

In the  Marines he was treated for VD in Japan at the same time he was more than 1400 miles away in Taiwan...

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/23677-a-couple-of-real-gems-from-the-harvey-and-lee-website/?do=findComment&comment=348691

While living in Minsk in the Soviet Union, he visited the Bolton Ford truck dealership in New Orleans...

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/23677-a-couple-of-real-gems-from-the-harvey-and-lee-website/?do=findComment&comment=349244

A more thorough look at the Bolton Ford incident is here:

http://harveyandlee.net/Misc/Bolton.html

For the mother lode of examples, read Harvey and Lee by John Armstrong or visit my website:

HarveyandLee.net

If Harvey and Lee critics here claim any of the above has been debunked, don't believe it!  Be sure to look at any EVIDENCE they claim to have and judge for yourself!

Edited March 14, 2018 by Jim Hargrove

[Thomas Graves]

On 3/27/2017 at 8:43 AM, Thomas Graves said:

GEM # 1  (Let's take them one at a time, shall we?)

"The Russian speaking youth, possibly of Hungarian parents, was brought to the U.S. following World War II and given the name HARVEY Oswald."

Question:  If the mother tongue of "Harvey" (the young boy who eventually joined the Marines, "defected" to the USSR, married Marina, and was killed by Jack Ruby on 11/24/63) was Hungarian (a Turkic language from Central Asia), and he was already speaking Russian (a highly-inflected, Indo-European language) when he came to the U.S., how are we to explain, then, the fact that "Harvey" spoke such grammatically-correct, Hungarian and Russian accent-free English later in life? 

--  Tommy

PS  I think I can speak with some authority on this, having taught English for seven years in a country that speaks a Slavic, i.e. Russian-like language, the Czech Republic.  And I remember the Hungarian Toth brothers at La Jolla High School back around 1964, who probably came to the U.S. around the time of the 1956 Hungarian Revolt against the U.S.S.R. 

A timely bump?

--  Tommy 

[Thomas Graves]

On 3/27/2017 at 11:29 AM, W. Tracy Parnell said:

I'm sure Hargrove will come up with something, but it is, of course, unexplainable. The whole "Harvey was Hungarian" concept comes from an anonymous phone call reported by Mrs. Jack Tippit.

 

Tracy,

After reading all of the posts in this incredibly long thread, one begins to wonder if it's not more logical to believe that there were two Lovelady's (instead of two Oswalds for so many years) on just one day -- 11/22/63.

Bart's walking down Elm Street Extension, and Sandy's and mine (and Bob Prudhomme's), talking with Gloria Calvery on the front steps of the TSBD about 25 seconds after the final shot.

--  Tommy 

Edited March 18, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

6 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

On 3/27/2017 at 9:43 AM, Thomas Graves said:

GEM # 1  (Let's take them one at a time, shall we?)

"The Russian speaking youth, possibly of Hungarian parents, was brought to the U.S. following World War II and given the name HARVEY Oswald."

Question:  If the mother tongue of "Harvey" (the young boy who eventually joined the Marines, "defected" to the USSR, married Marina, and was killed by Jack Ruby on 11/24/63) was Hungarian (a Turkic language from Central Asia), and he was already speaking Russian (a highly-inflected, Indo-European language) when he came to the U.S., how are we to explain, then, the fact that "Harvey" spoke such grammatically-correct, Hungarian and Russian accent-free English later in life? 

--  Tommy

PS  I think I can speak with some authority on this, having taught English for seven years in a country that speaks a Slavic, i.e. Russian-like language, the Czech Republic.  And I remember the Hungarian Toth brothers at La Jolla High School back around 1964, who probably came to the U.S. around the time of the 1956 Hungarian Revolt against the U.S.S.R. 

A timely bump?

 

We've been through this before Tommy. A person who moves to another country early in life has a good chance of losing their accent, in particular when they are removed from their first-language environment. I don't have a reference for that, just my personal experience.

My first wife was a South Korean orphan who move to the U.S. when she was about seven. She was nineteen when I met here and she had absolutely no accept and spoke excellent English, better than most native born Americans.

Another example: My wife works at a small manufacturing company where illegal Mexicans have historically been able to get  jobs. One of my wife's friends who works there is an illegal Mexican. About ten years ago her son, age 15, suddenly appeared. He had remained behind in Mexico till that time. My wife spent some time with him and informed me that he spoke no English. Though I wondered if he had taken English classes when in Mexico. Because I met him about four years later and he spoke English well, and with no accent. He had lived in an English speaking foster home during much of those four years.

Admittedly, this guy's case is unusual.

 

[Thomas Graves]

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

We've been through this before Tommy. A person who moves to another country early in life has a good chance of losing their accent, in particular when they are removed from their first-language environment. I don't have a reference for that, just my personal experience.

My first wife was a South Korean orphan who move to the U.S. when she was about seven. She was nineteen when I met here and she had absolutely no accept and spoke excellent English, better than most native born Americans.

Another example: My wife works at a small manufacturing company where illegal Mexicans have historically been able to get  jobs. One of my wife's friends who works there is an illegal Mexican. About ten years ago her son, age 15, suddenly appeared. He had remained behind in Mexico till that time. My wife spent some time with him and informed me that he spoke no English. Though I wondered if he had taken English classes when in Mexico. Because I met him about four years later and he spoke English well, and with no accent. He had lived in an English speaking foster home during much of those four years.

Admittedly, this guy's case is unusual.

 

 

Sandy,

I didn't say anything about accent.

Maybe your wife is a one-in-a-thousand, linguistically-gifted genius or something.

All I know is that I taught English in the Czech Republic for seven years, and based on that experience ("the teacher always learns more than the student"), my impression is that using English syntax and grammar correctly is a very difficult thing for foreigners to learn how to do, and that it would be even more difficult for a foreigner like your putative Hungarian boy, "Harvey" (who had allegedly first learned Hungarian and then Russian from his parents), to master as well as the man who was killed by Jack Ruby on 11/22/63 did.

(I'm talking about his spoken English here, not his dyslexic-like and poorly spelled/spelt written English.)

--  Tommy 

 

Edited March 18, 2018 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Sandy,

I didn't say anything about accent.

 

Tommy,

You said:  "....when he came to the U.S., how are we to explain, then, the fact that "Harvey" spoke such grammatically-correct, Hungarian and Russian accent-free English later in life?"

 

Quote

Maybe your wife is a one-in-a-thousand, linguistically-gifted genius or something.

 

Or maybe she's an example is what should be expected of kids in her and Harvey's situation... having moved to the U.S. at a young age and then fully immersed in an English speaking environment for several years straight.

 

Quote

All I know is that I taught English in the Czech Republic for seven years, and based on my experience, my general impression is that correct English grammar is a very difficult thing for foreigners to learn,....

 

I believe that the key to the grammatically correct, accent free, learning of my ex-wife and Harvey is the total language immersion in both cases.

 

Quote

and even more difficult for a foreigner like your putative Hungarian boy, "Harvey," who had already learned Hungarian and Russian from his parents, to master as well as the man who was shot by Jack Ruby on 11/22/63 obviously did.

I'm talking about his spoken English here, not his dyslexic-like written English.

--  Tommy 

 

 

Edited March 18, 2018 by Sandy Larsen