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Thomas Graves

A Couple of Real Gems from the "Harvey and Lee" Website

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One of my favorite Harvey and Lee examples comes courtesy of the USMC.

Throughout much of 1957 and 1958, American-born LEE Harvey Oswald was serving continuously in the United States Marine Corps, in bases at various locations in the mainland U.S. and in Japan and the Phillipines.  During this same time, Russian-speaking Lee HARVEY Oswald was placed briefly in several USMC training facilities but spent much of the time living in the Hotel Senator in New Orleans and later in Fort Worth.

But in September 1958, Harvey Oswald traveled from the mainland U.S. to the large Marine base at Atsugi, Japan, where Lee Oswald was also stationed.  According to First Lieutenant William K. Trail, Harvey was placed in the brig at Atsugi.  This was probably done to keep Harvey away from Marines who worked and bunked with Lee at the base.  That was critical, because Harvey was about to assume Lee’s USMC identity, and start acting like a Russian-loving communist in preparation for his false defection.

According to Marine Corps Unit Diary 151- 58 (744), Lee Harvey Oswald and his unit departed from Japan for a week long trip to the South China Sea on September 14, 1958 aboard the USS Skagit (AKA 105), an attack cargo ship.
 

uss%20skagit.jpg

 

09%2014%2058.jpg


While Lee Oswald was still stationed at Atsugi, Japan, Harvey Oswald arrived in Taiwan on September 30, 1958, where he soon was spotted doing a very un-Marine like thing.   On the evening of October 4, 1958, Lt. Charles Rhodes heard four or five rifle shots coming from the direction of the position that Harvey was guarding. Rhodes ran toward Oswald and found him slumped against a tree, shaking, and crying while holding his rifle. He kept saying that he just couldn't bear to be on guard duty.  Harvey’s Taiwan adventure would soon come to an end.

In the meantime, though, while Harvey was still aboard the USS Skagit and accompanying real Marines in Taiwan (9/14/58–10/6/58), LEE Oswald contracted veneral disease and was repeatedly treated for it at the Navy Hospital in Atsugi, Japan, some 1400 miles from Taiwan.   Medical records for NAS Navy 3835 a Naval Hospital at Atsugi, show numerous medical entries for LEE Oswald recorded on Sept 16, 20, 22, 23, 29, and Oct 6.

1-medical%2009:1958.jpg

 

2-medical%2009:5858.jpg

 

As good as this story is so far, it gets even better.  But I’m going to pause for a moment and let Tracy Parnell or someone similar make a post with a link to somewhere saying all this has been “debunked”. Wait for it—it shouldn’t take long.  Then I'll show the rest of the story.

This is going to be fun!
 

Edited by Jim Hargrove

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Jim,

How do we know that LHO didn't return sooner than October 6?

The reason I ask is because there is a date of Sept. 5 on the unit diary. I'm thinking that maybe that is the date they left Japan, and that Sept. 14 is the date the trip it was recorded.

If true, then had Harvey returned back to Atsugi on, say, Sept. 14, then he could have been treated there for VD.

 

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I  don't  think  this  is  fun at all, Jim. To be honest, I  think it's  shameful that  you  continue  to push this ridiculous  fantasy  onto people  who  don't  know  any better.

Furthermore  you're  just  as bad as LNers who continue  to  push LHO as the sole assassin and have the big bucks in  the  media  to keep  it rolling  along.

Your fantasy  story only takes folks away from the real  truth of the case  so in a way you  actually  aid the LNers story line.

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2 minutes ago, Michael Walton said:

I  don't  think  this  is  fun at all, Jim. To be honest, I  think it's  shameful that  you  continue  to push this ridiculous  fantasy  onto people  who  don't  know  any better.

Furthermore  you're  just  as bad as LNers who continue  to  push LHO as the sole assassin and have the big bucks in  the  media  to keep  it rolling  along.

Your fantasy  story only takes folks away from the real  truth of the case  so in a way you  actually  aid the LNers story line.


This from the man who denies scientific fact when he disagrees with it.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/22979-why-humes-thought-the-back-missile-hit-at-a-sharp-angle-a-hypothesis/&page=11#comment-348619


At least Jim has some compelling evidence for the theory he's championing. You just have your opinion.

 

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2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Jim,

How do we know that LHO didn't return sooner than October 6?

The reason I ask is because there is a date of Sept. 5 on the unit diary. I'm thinking that maybe that is the date they left Japan, and that Sept. 14 is the date the trip it was recorded.

If true, then had Harvey returned back to Atsugi on, say, Sept. 14, then he could have been treated there for VD.

 

 

Because, among other reasons, Harvey's Unit Diary shows that he was still located at "Ping-Tung (North) Taiwan" on October 6, 1958.

 

58-13.jpg?dl=0

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Jim Hargrove said:

Russian-speaking Lee HARVEY Oswald was placed briefly in several USMC training facilities but spent much of the time living in the Hotel Senator in New Orleans and later in Fort Worth.

You are either in the military or you are not. It’s like being a little pregnant-not possible.

But in September 1958, Harvey Oswald traveled from the mainland U.S. to the large Marine base at Atsugi, Japan, where Lee Oswald was also stationed.

And nobody wondered why these two men, who looked almost exactly alike except when they didn’t, were in the same place using the same name and the same military ID. Hargrove tries to get around this by saying “Harvey” went in the brig (based predictably on a witness). But like so many other facets of this theory, it would only take one person to see both men to foil the plot. If I remember correctly, there were other times that the two men were at the same facility during their military service and the same problem could have occurred at any time.

Before Hargrove makes too much of this, no I cannot answer every discrepancy in the record. Armstrong/Hargrove try to tell people that the H&L theory can do that if they only believe. I tell people the truth-there are discrepancies in life that can and do come up especially when your mother lives in 50 different places. None of these require 2 Oswalds to understand. I believe LHO was probably in Taiwan but the WC and HSCA couldn’t even agree on this point. But these problems allow the H&L people to do what they do.

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14 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

But like so many other facets of this theory, it would only take one person to see both men to foil the plot.


But Tracy, the two men don't look alike. Side-by-side they look like two different men.

I agree that if you compare eyes alone, they look similar. (One person commented that the eyebrows are the same, and another said they look different, so I don't know about that. I forgot to compare eyebrows when I looked at Mike Walton's transposition of the two.) I agree that the mouths look the same. But overall they look different.

I think the only time the two might be confused is when you've seen one, and then see the other at a later date or time. In other words, they sort of look the same.

BTW, I found the following from looking at Mike's transposition:

  • Eye, nose, and mouth spacing is very close.
  • The ears on one (Lee, I think) are significantly higher.
  • The chins are different. Lee has a pointed chin, and Harvey has a slight cleft chin that makes it more square at its tip. Though that might disappear if he gained weight.

 

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1 hour ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

You are either in the military or you are not. It’s like being a little pregnant-not possible

You should know better than that, Tracy.

Here's a Richard Starnes’ piece from 10/2/63 that so appalled the Times' Arthur Krock that he wrote his infamous article the next day about the open hostility between the Kennedy Administration and the CIA. It shows that CIA people regularly infiltrated the armed forces.

The Washington Daily News, Wednesday, October 2, 1963, p.3 (emphasis added)

'SPOOKS' MAKE LIFE MISERABLE FOR AMBASSADOR LODGE

'Arrogant' CIA Disobeys Orders in Viet Nam

By Richard T. Starnes

SAIGON, Oct.2 - The story of the Central Intelligence Agency's role in South Viet Nam is a dismal chronicle of bureaucratic arrogance, obstinate disregard of orders, and unrestrained thirst for power.

Twice the CIA flatly refused to carry out instructions from Ambassador Henry Cabot Lodge, according to a high United States source here.

In one of these instances the CIA frustrated a plan of action Mr. Lodge brought with him from Washington because the agency disagreed with it.

This led to a dramatic confrontation between Mr. Lodge and John Richardson, chief of the huge CIA apparatus here. Mr. Lodge failed to move Mr. Richardson, and the dispute was bucked back to Washington. Secretary of State Dean Rusk and CIA Chief John A. McCone were unable to resolve the conflict, and the matter is now reported to be awaiting settlement by President Kennedy.

It is one of the developments expected to be covered in Defense Secretary Robert McNamara's report to Mr. Kennedy.

Others Critical, Too

Other American agencies here are incredibly bitter about the CIA.

"If the United States ever experiences a 'Seven Days in May' it will come from the CIA, and not from the Pentagon," one U.S. official commented caustically.

("Seven Days in May" is a fictional account of an attempted military coup to take over the U.S. Government.)

CIA "spooks" (a universal term for secret agents here) have penetrated every branch of the American community in Saigon, until non-spook Americans here almost seem to be suffering a CIA psychosis.

An American field officer with a distinguished combat career speaks angrily about "that man at headquarters in Saigon wearing a colonel's uniform." He means the man is a CIA agent, and he can't understand what he is doing at U.S. military headquarters here, unless it is spying on other Americans.

Another American officer, talking about the CIA, acidly commented: "You'd think they'd have learned something from Cuba but apparently they didn't."

Few Know CIA Strength

Few people other than Mr. Richardson and his close aides know the actual CIA strength here, but a widely used figure is 600. Many are clandestine agents known only to a few of their fellow spooks.

Even Mr. Richardson is a man about whom it is difficult to learn much in Saigon. He is said to be a former OSS officer, and to have served with distinction in the CIA in the Philippines.

A surprising number of the spooks are known to be involved in their ghostly trade and some make no secret of it.

"There are a number of spooks in the U.S. Information Service, in the U.S. Operations mission, in every aspect of American official and commercial life here, " one official - presumably a non-spook - said.

"They represent a tremendous power and total unaccountability to anyone," he added.

Coupled with the ubiquitous secret police of Ngo Dinh Nhu, a surfeit of spooks has given Saigon an oppressive police state atmosphere.

The Nhu-Richardson relationship is a subject of lively speculation. The CIA continues to pay the special forces which conducted brutal raids on Buddhist temples last Aug. 21, altho in fairness it should be pointed out that the CIA is paying these goons for the war against communist guerillas, not Buddhist bonzes (priests).

Hand Over Millions

Nevertheless, on the first of every month, the CIA dutifully hands over a quarter million American dollars to pay these special forces.

Whatever else it buys, it doesn't buy any solid information on what the special forces are up to. The Aug. 21 raids caught top U.S. officials here and in Washington flat-footed.

Nhu ordered the special forces to crush the Buddhist priests, but the CIA wasn't let in on the secret. (Some CIA button men now say they warned their superiors what was coming up, but in any event the warning of harsh repression was never passed to top officials here or in Washington.)

Consequently, Washington reacted unsurely to the crisis. Top officials here and at home were outraged at the news the CIA was paying the temple raiders, but the CIA continued the payments.

It may not be a direct subsidy for a religious war against the country's Buddhist majority, but it comes close to that.

And for every State Department aide here who will tell you, "Dammit, the CIA is supposed to gather information, not make policy, but policy-making is what they're doing here," there are military officers who scream over the way the spooks dabble in military operations.

A Typical Example

For example, highly trained trail watchers are an important part of the effort to end Viet Cong infiltration from across the Laos and Cambodia borders. But if the trailer watchers spot incoming Viet Congs, they report it to the CIA in Saigon, and in the fullness of time, the spooks may tell the military.

One very high American official here, a man who has spent much of his life in the service of democracy, likened the CIA's growth to a malignancy, and added he was not sure even the White House could control it any longer.

Unquestionably Mr. McNamara and Gen. Maxwell Taylor both got an earful from people who are beginning to fear the CIA is becoming a Third Force co-equal with President Diem's regime and the U.S. Government - and answerable to neither.

There is naturally the highest interest here as to whether Mr. McNamara will persuade Mr. Kennedy something ought to be done about it.

 

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42 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

But Tracy, the two men don't look alike. Side-by-side they look like two different men.

That's my point-it depends. They look enough alike that two photos are put together to make one ID. But circa 1953, one is 5'4" and husky and the other is 4'8" and looks like a concentration camp survivor. But somehow the plotters knew they would look alike when grown, enough so to make an ID. Either they look alike or they don't and that characteristic changes as the H&L theory needs it to change.

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15 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

You should know better than that, Tracy.

My point still stands. It would only take one person to notice the two men or their two mothers at any point in time over the years from 1947 up to the present day and come foreword and report it to an investigative journalist. Even setting aside the scientific evidence that refutes the theory, It is simply not believable  that the CIA or any entity could pull off such a deception with no one the wiser or that they could kill all these people or pay them all off.

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1 hour ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

That's my point-it depends. They look enough alike that two photos are put together to make one ID. But circa 1953, one is 5'4" and husky and the other is 4'8" and looks like a concentration camp survivor. But somehow the plotters knew they would look alike when grown, enough so to make an ID. Either they look alike or they don't and that characteristic changes as the H&L theory needs it to change.

Tracy,

That was more than just your average touché!

You've drawn blood, and the "Harvey and Lee and the two Marguerites" aficionados are mortally wounded now.

Slowly bleeding to death on the Education Forum.

Shaking their heads and muttering, "Why the hell didn't I just stick with the relatively safe sport of bullfighting?"

--  Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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21 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Tracy,

That was more than just your average touché!

You've drawn blood, and the "Harvey and Lee and the two Marguerites" aficionados are mortally wounded now.

Slowly bleeding to death on the Education Forum.

Shaking their heads and muttering, "Why the hell didn't I just stick with the relatively safe sport of bullfighting?"

--  Tommy :sun

edited

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