A Couple of Real Gems from the "Harvey and Lee" Website

[Sandy Larsen]

26 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

When trying for 50 years to figure out who killed JFK, what does it matter how bad LHO's grades were?

I wonder about lots of things that don't matter, Tommy. In fact we all do. In the end we'll all be dead and nothing we ever did will have mattered.

 

[Thomas Graves]

21 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I wonder about lots of things that don't matter, Tommy. In fact we all do. In the end we'll all be dead and nothing we ever did will have mattered.

 

What is it about Lee's or Harvey's or Lee's or Harvey's grades that worry you?

Anecdote:  When I was living in the Czech Republic for seven years, I tried learning (that's a gerund here, btw) Czech by reading novels in Czech. Don't ask me how that worked out.

Edited May 2, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

11 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

What is it about Lee's or Harvey's or Lee's or Harvey's grades that worry you?

(Who said his grades worry me?)

I just wonder why a very bright young man would get such horrible grades in school.

Although, come to think of it, not many of the grades we see belong to Harvey, if I understand the school records correctly.

Jim, isn't it true that almost all the grades we see are Lee's? Isn't it the case that only two of the grades/scores we see  belong to Harvey... the General Science and Phys Ed ones in the fall of 1953 at Beauregard?

Even so, all he got was a measly 70% in both those classes IIRC. (How does one get a C- in phys ed?)

 

[Thomas Graves]

19 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

(Who said his grades worry me?)

I just wonder why a very bright young man would get such horrible grades in school.

Although, come to think of it, not many of the grades we see belong to Harvey, if I understand the school records correctly.

Jim, isn't it true that almost all the grades we see are Lee's? Isn't it the case that only two of the grades/scores we see  belong to Harvey... the General Science and Phys Ed ones in the fall of 1953 at Beauregard?

Even so, all he got was a measly 70% in both those classes IIRC. (How does one get a C- in phys ed?)

 

LOL

I don't suppose the one-and-only Lee Harvey Oswald's low grades had anything to do with his (uh oh, I feel another gerund coming on) being such a bad speller, and his (uh oh) playing hooky so much, and his (dang -- three in one sentence!) preferring to read books from the library instead of his, stupid, boring school books.

Oh yeah, and his (I can't believe it -- two more of those darned gerunds) planning on joining the Marine Corps as soon as possible, "so who needs to study, anyway?".

Edited May 2, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Ray Mitcham]

11 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Ha Ha Ha

Good one, Ray.

Want a medal?

All you did was help me to prove that HARVEY wasn't a Hungarian boy, after all.

I mean.  I mean. I mean.

--  Tommy

 

 

[Thomas Graves]

Wow, after my last post, I'm all gerunded out!

Edited May 2, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Jim Hargrove]

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

(Who said his grades worry me?)

I just wonder why a very bright young man would get such horrible grades in school.

Although, come to think of it, not many of the grades we see belong to Harvey, if I understand the school records correctly.

Jim, isn't it true that almost all the grades we see are Lee's? Isn't it the case that only two of the grades/scores we see  belong to Harvey... the General Science and Phys Ed ones in the fall of 1953 at Beauregard?

Even so, all he got was a measly 70% in both those classes IIRC. (How does one get a C- in phys ed?)

Yes.  Lee’s schooling can be traced back to Benbrook School in Texas in 1945.  But very little is known about Harvey’s schooling until he barely attends the seventh grade at PS 117 in NYC in 1952.   He then attended PS 44 in the Bronx.

New York City was a clever choice for Harvey Oswald’s school placement.  Public schools in the city were given numbers that were often repeated in some of the five boroughs. While Harvey attended PS 44 in the Bronx, Lee was probably (according to info from Robert Oswald’s book) at PS 44 in Manhattan.

Despite the cleverness of the NYC school operation, Oswald Project handlers faced a real problem due to Harvey’s truancy and legal problems in NY.  They couldn’t risk sending Harvey and phony Marguerite to court to answer the charges; but sending Lee and real Marguerite risked a total meltdown from Lee, who would want to ask the judge why in hell he was being charged with truancy when he had only missed a day or two of school in a year.  The answer, of course, was to flee NYC, which is exactly what happened.

The Beauregard situation has been discussed at length here, and Harvey’s Stripling records disappeared while in FBI custody.  That leaves just Harvey’s VERY brief stays at Warren Easton and Arlington High.
 

[Thomas Graves]

On 5/2/2017 at 4:19 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

Yes.  Lee’s schooling can be traced back to Benbrook School in Texas in 1945.  But very little is known about Harvey’s schooling until he barely attends the seventh grade at PS 117 in NYC in 1952.   He then attended PS 44 in the Bronx.

New York City was a clever choice for Harvey Oswald’s school placement.  Public schools in the city were given numbers that were often repeated in some of the five boroughs. While Harvey attended PS 44 in the Bronx, Lee was probably (according to info from Robert Oswald’s book) at PS 44 in Manhattan.

Despite the cleverness of the NYC school operation, Oswald Project handlers faced a real problem due to Harvey’s truancy and legal problems in NY.  They couldn’t risk sending Harvey and phony Marguerite to court to answer the charges; but sending Lee and real Marguerite risked a total meltdown from Lee, who would want to ask the judge why in hell he was being charged with truancy when he had only missed a day or two of school in a year.  The answer, of course, was to flee NYC, which is exactly what happened.

The Beauregard situation has been discussed at length here, and Harvey’s Stripling records disappeared while in FBI custody.  That leaves just Harvey’s VERY brief stays at Warren Easton and Arlington High.
 

Jim,

Any idea on how the CIA chose a couple of ten-year-old boys knowing, somehow, that said boys would grow up looking sufficiently "alike" as to be able to fool witnesses, after the assassination, into thinking the guy they'd seen or dealt with, "Lee", was actually ..... "Harvey"? 

(But .... at the same time .... sufficiently "different," of course, as to "support" the specious Harvey and Lee and the Two Marguerites theory?)

--  Tommy

Edited May 4, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

15 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Yes.  Lee’s schooling can be traced back to Benbrook School in Texas in 1945.  But very little is known about Harvey’s schooling until he barely attends the seventh grade at PS 117 in NYC in 1952.   He then attended PS 44 in the Bronx.

New York City was a clever choice for Harvey Oswald’s school placement.  Public schools in the city were given numbers that were often repeated in some of the five boroughs. While Harvey attended PS 44 in the Bronx, Lee was probably (according to info from Robert Oswald’s book) at PS 44 in Manhattan.

Despite the cleverness of the NYC school operation, Oswald Project handlers faced a real problem due to Harvey’s truancy and legal problems in NY.  They couldn’t risk sending Harvey and phony Marguerite to court to answer the charges; but sending Lee and real Marguerite risked a total meltdown from Lee, who would want to ask the judge why in hell he was being charged with truancy when he had only missed a day or two of school in a year.  The answer, of course, was to flee NYC, which is exactly what happened.

The Beauregard situation has been discussed at length here, and Harvey’s Stripling records disappeared while in FBI custody.  That leaves just Harvey’s VERY brief stays at Warren Easton and Arlington High.
 

Jim,

I'd forgotten about the truancy problems because of the considerable time I spent studying the 8th an 9th grade school records, which show no signs of truancy whatsoever.

The 8th and 9th grade records (which are primarily Lee's) make one think that maybe it was Harvey with the truancy problem, not Lee. Which is backed up by what you wrote in your post. But when I go back to Harvey & Lee and read what John wrote, I find it confusing. Sometimes it seems like he's talking about Harvey (because  his small size is emphasized, or his truancy is mentioned). And other times it sounds like he's talking about Lee (because his larger size is mentioned or he specifically uses Lee's name). Which is fine. But sometimes the two things are said about ONE Oswald! Here's an example:

"Hartogs summarized his report on Oswald and wrote, "This 13-year-old well built boy has superior mental resources and functions only slightly below his capacity level in spite of chronic truancy from school which brought him into Youth House."

Well built sounds like Lee, whereas chronic truancy sounds like Harvey.

Because of this I get the impression that both boys had truancy problems.

For similar reasons, elsewhere in the book I get the impression that both boys were loners and liked to read books. Whereas before reading the book, I was of the impression that Lee was outgoing and not studious, while Harvey was quiet and loved to read. (Admittedly it was some time ago that I read and got this impression, and I could be remembering incorrectly.)

Naturally those two observations -- if correct -- give ammunition to Harvey and Lee critics. Can you comment on them and clarify?

Also, do you agree with the following traits I've formed in my head?

Harvey:
   Smaller
   Smarter
   More studious
   Quiet (unless angered)
   Loner
   Teetotaler

Lee:
   Larger
   Average smarts
   Less studious
   Boisterous
   Outgoing
   Drinker of alcohol

There are probably other opposing traits I can't think of right now.

 

[Thomas Graves]

31 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Jim,

I'd forgotten about the truancy problems because of the considerable time I spent studying the 8th an 9th grade school records, which show no signs of truancy whatsoever.

The 8th and 9th grade records (which are primarily Lee's) make one think that maybe it was Harvey with the truancy problem, not Lee. Which is backed up by what you wrote in your post. But when I go back to Harvey & Lee and read what John wrote, I find it confusing. Sometimes it seems like he's talking about Harvey (because  his small size is emphasized, or his truancy is mentioned). And other times it sounds like he's talking about Lee (because his larger size is mentioned or he specifically uses Lee's name). Which is fine. But sometimes the two things are said about ONE Oswald! Here's an example:

"Hartogs summarized his report on Oswald and wrote, "This 13-year-old well built boy has superior mental resources and functions only slightly below his capacity level in spite of chronic truancy from school which brought him into Youth House."

Well built sounds like Lee, whereas chronic truancy sounds like Harvey.

Because of this I get the impression that both boys had truancy problems.

For similar reasons, elsewhere in the book I get the impression that both boys were loners and liked to read books. Whereas before reading the book, I was of the impression that Lee was outgoing and not studious, while Harvey was quiet and loved to read. (Admittedly it was some time ago that I read and got this impression, and I could be remembering incorrectly.)

Naturally those two observations -- if correct -- give ammunition to Harvey and Lee critics. Can you comment on them and clarify?

Also, do you agree with the following traits I've formed in my head?

Harvey:
   Smaller
   Smarter
   More studious
   Quiet (unless angered)
   Loner
   Teetotaler

Lee:
   Larger
   Average smarts
   Less studious
   Boisterous
   Outgoing
   Drinker of alcohol

There are probably other opposing traits I can't think of right now.

 

Sandy,

What?  You're finding glaring contradictions in "Harvey and Lee"?

Say it isn't so!

LOL

--  Tommy

[Sandy Larsen]

43 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Sandy,

What?  You're finding glaring contradictions in "Harvey and Lee"?

Say it isn't so!

LOL

--  Tommy

Just being open minded and objective, Tommy. As always.

 

Edited May 3, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Thomas Graves]

37 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Just being open minded and objective, Tommy. As always.

 

Good on you, Sandy.  

There's hope for you yet.

--  Tommy

[Jim Hargrove]

17 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

"Hartogs summarized his report on Oswald and wrote, "This 13-year-old well built boy has superior mental resources and functions only slightly below his capacity level in spite of chronic truancy from school which brought him into Youth House."

Yep!  That’s what Dr. Hartogs said when the FBI was in charge of delivering his words.  When Hartogs himself was in charge of what he said about Harvey Oswald, the report was a whole lot different.

In his 1965 book The Two Assassins, Dr. Renatus Hartogs described the Oswald he met as a “slender, dark-haired boy with a pale, haunted face…. He had an underfed look, reminiscent of the starved children I had seen in concentration camps.”
 

All of this information has been available in Harvey and Lee for nearly 15 years now.  

Btw, Sandy, your description of the character traits of Harvey vs. Lee seems right on the money.  Lee, however, did not have serious truancy problems. Lee, not Harvey, shot himself in the arm in the USMC.
 

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

18 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

"Hartogs summarized his report on Oswald and wrote, "This 13-year-old well built boy has superior mental resources and functions only slightly below his capacity level in spite of chronic truancy from school which brought him into Youth House."

Yep!  That’s what Dr. Hartogs said when the FBI was in charge of delivering his words.  When Hartogs himself was in charge of what he said about Harvey Oswald, the report was a whole lot different.

In his 1965 book The Two Assassins, Dr. Renatus Hartogs described the Oswald he met as a “slender, dark-haired boy with a pale, haunted face…. He had an underfed look, reminiscent of the starved children I had seen in concentration camps.”

Ah! Hahaha! Damn you're good, Hargrove!

Is there ANY discrepancy you don't have a good answer for?? LOL

The guy, whose words I question,  just happens to be an author of a book on Oswald. And his book just happens to expose the FBI's lie that triggered my question! (Unwittingly, I'm sure.)

Hey Jim, John mustn't  have known about this when he wrote his book or it would be in the book, right? So my question is, who discovered this? And when?

Brilliant!

EDIT: Oh, I just looked in the book and found it. Just two paragraphs down! Still, what a surprise. (That is obviously where I stopped reading the other day. Just after what I quoted.)

Edited May 3, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Thomas Graves]

41 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Ah! Hahaha! Damn you're good, Hargrove!

Is there ANY discrepancy you don't have a good answer for?? LOL

The guy, whose words I question,  just happens to be an author of a book on Oswald. And his book just happens to expose the FBI's lie that triggered my question! (Unwittingly, I'm sure.)

Hey Jim, John mustn't  have known about this when he wrote his book or it would be in the book, right? So my question is, who discovered this? And when?

Brilliant!

EDIT: Oh, I just looked in the book and found it. Just two paragraphs down! Still, what a surprise. (That is obviously where I stopped reading the other day. Just after what I quoted.)

Obviously