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A Couple of Real Gems from the "Harvey and Lee" Website


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19 minutes ago, Chris Newton said:

Good start with the hypothesis, by the way. I'm with you on about 95% of it, so far.


Wow, that's great to hear! Because I know I'm taking a few bold leaps. For example, by saying that I don't believe Oswald would do that silly stamping. That statement seems pretty bold considering he was a young guy and some young guys do silly things. But Oswald doesn't strike me as being that type of person. He seems pretty sober and a bit of an intellectual to me.

Anyway, eliminating just that possibility goes a long ways in narrowing down what could have happened.

 

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10 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

I’m not saying it is impossible, but it doesn’t seem likely to me that the CIA just got a blank dependent ID card and filled it in to get Oswald’s passport moving for the upcoming “defection.”


But that's what the documents show. The military ID and the passport application both state that the applicant is 5' 11". There's no getting around it.

 

10 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

If they had, why wouldn’t they have filled in Oswald’s actual height as 5’9”?


I don't know why they didn't put 5' 9".


 

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How about this explanation for using the LEE data on the military ID:

It was LEE, not HARVEY, who really needed the ID card. So he could get access to military bases.

It just turned out that HARVEY needed the same card, but for only a day so that he could apply for his passport. After that LEE could take it.

So some CIA person decided, well why not get the card for LEE, but let HARVEY use it once. Just to get his passport. No need to get two of the cards.

That seems reasonable to me.

It's the next step that is odd. And that is using the 5' 11" height and LEE's photo on HARVEY's passport application. I mean, weren't they worried that some official would say, hey, this is not your passport!

This potential hassle to put up with just because the CIA guy is too lazy to get two military ID cards issued, one for LEE and one for HARVEY?

I don't know. It's weird.

 

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Sandy,

I think Lee already had an ID card, although the dependency business is confusing.  Lee seems to have served consistently in the Marines while Harvey moved in and out (spending a lot of that time in NOLA).   If everyone is right that the so-called “Minsk” photo is a composite of two different faces, you can see why some Intel guy might take extreme measures to use it. From Harvey and Lee:

According to Marine Corps records a DOD card was issued to Oswald on Sep-
tember 11, 1959, with an expiration date of December 7, 1962. A spokeswoman for the
Marines, Lieutenant Kim Miller, said that DOD cards were issued for one of two rea-
sons: 1) injuries received while on active duty, 2) overseas civilian employment.105
Oswald did not receive an injury while on active duty, but he was probably employed as a
"civilian" by the CIA when he "defected" to the Soviet Union.

One look at Oswald's DOD card (DD 1173) is all it takes to realize that this
particular card is a fake. The lower right quarter of Oswald's photograph has been
blanked out by a semi-circular white overlay. Following the assassination the Dallas Police
found numerous smaller photographs of Oswald (and Marina) with similar semi-circular white
overlays. 106

The photograph that appears on the DOD card was identified by the Warren
Commission as "Photo taken in Minsk" (Warren Commission Exhibit 2892), where
Oswald lived from January, 1960 until June, 1962. This is, of course, impossible if the
card was issued to Oswald 5 months earlier in California. This same photograph was
used to fabricate a selective service card, with the name "Alek James Hidell," that was
found in Oswald's wallet on November 22. This card was one of two items that linked
Oswald to the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle (the other item was the backyard photograph).
107 The source of this composite photo, half of Harvey and half of Lee, has never been identified.

– from Harvey and Lee, p. 897, Copyright © 2003 by John Armstrong.  All rights reserved.

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6 hours ago, Chris Newton said:

Hey, If you can prove that an Oswald imposter had the DD 1173, then go for it. And after providing some reasonable explanation, you feel the desire to call the imposter Harvey or lee  or whatever, I'm cool with that. On the other hand, if your H&L scenario is not valid, the questions surrounding this evidence still remain ...so I'm not in favor of you guys using the H&L scenario as a shoe-horn to make things fit which are otherwise unexplained. Does that make my position clear?


Ah, but part of that evidence you seek is right in front of your eyes on the dependent’s ID card!  The card indicates LHO was 71” tall (5’ 11”), as do a number of other USMC documents, including two medical reports.  But the LHO killed by Ruby was two inches shorter,  as shown on the autopsy report, his own words (according to Fritz) during the interrogation of 11/23/63,  a NOLA police report, and lots of applications Oswald filled out.  Are we to believe USMC medical examiners and personnel workers were so incompetent as to miss his actual height by not one but two inches?

In addition, are we to believe that the CIA had a system in place to acquire blank DD 1173 cards for whatever purpose but no system for attaching photos to them?  These are, after all, photo IDs.  What possible reason could there be to go to such elaborate extremes to attach an image that appears to be a composite processed by the Soviets on the ID card?  (Please see Sandy’s photo study repeated at the top of the previous page.)

To me, at least, the existing evidence clearly suggests that this card was produced for a 5’ 11” Lee Harvey Oswald whose face didn’t match the 5’ 9” Oswald killed by Jack Ruby.  Extensive evidence that there were two “Lee Harvey Oswalds” serving in the Marine Corps at the same time has been shown earlier in this thread and is more fully developed here:

http://harveyandlee.net/Marines/Marines.html

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7 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:


Wow, that's great to hear! Because I know I'm taking a few bold leaps. For example, by saying that I don't believe Oswald would do that silly stamping. That statement seems pretty bold considering he was a young guy and some young guys do silly things. But Oswald doesn't strike me as being that type of person. He seems pretty sober and a bit of an intellectual to me.

Anyway, eliminating just that possibility goes a long ways in narrowing down what could have happened.

 

I posted this before Sandy....  Seems the same squared off lettering occurs within the test circle..

This was the evidence allowing Oswald to bypass the Mexican/US screening at the border for vaccinations... If you didn't have a card, you were pulled and vaccinated...

Between his photo skills and some of the spycraft he picked up (we are seeing he was not the bumbling idiot made out to be)
I think it very likely he created a great many of the finished altered works

my $.02

 

59baa462eb57e_OswaldsStampkitwithsamedateasvaccinationneededtoleaveMexicowhichmatchesFPCCfliers-smaller.thumb.jpg.3b948d18edf66471ca5d1a2bfe20a771.jpg

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DJ,

How much confidence can we really put into a study comparing rubber stamp fonts?  Let’s say though, for the sake of the discussion, that these stamps prove conclusively that Harvey Oswald was at least partially responsible himself for creating the DoD ID card.  Where does that leave us?

He surely had to have help obtaining the ID card in the first place, either from the other Oswald or from someone with access to the blank forms.  Classic Oswald® at this point was 20 years old, though we both probably think Harvey could have been a couple of years older.  Is there any doubt that someone his age, laying the ground work for an upcoming attempting espionage assignment in the USSR, would prepare false documents, or do much of anything else, without direct supervision?

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23 hours ago, David Josephs said:

I posted this before Sandy....  Seems the same squared off lettering occurs within the test circle..

This was the evidence allowing Oswald to bypass the Mexican/US screening at the border for vaccinations... If you didn't have a card, you were pulled and vaccinated...

Between his photo skills and some of the spycraft he picked up (we are seeing he was not the bumbling idiot made out to be)
I think it very likely he created a great many of the finished altered works

my $.02

 

59baa462eb57e_OswaldsStampkitwithsamedateasvaccinationneededtoleaveMexicowhichmatchesFPCCfliers-smaller.thumb.jpg.3b948d18edf66471ca5d1a2bfe20a771.jpg

 

David,

Thanks for pointing out that document, the immunization one.

It looks like two circle stamps were used, a very large one and a smaller one. Oddly the text at the bottom is in reverse. That is, "CAN" or "OAN" stamped in reverse, and then stamped again on top of that. The text at the top is reversed too. It includes a backward "R."

Anyway, this certainly puts a new light on the possibility that Oswald himself did that "silly stamping" on the military ID card. Except it wasn't really a silly thing to do. Obviously he wouldn't have been able to fool any servicemen, so I wonder who the card was meant to fool.

One thing I'd like to clear up is whether it was LEE or HARVEY doing all this stamp work. Based on everything I know, I tend to think that it was LEE who was spotted with the anti-Castro Cubans, and in a car going to Mexico. (But not going to the embassies.) And meeting with Nagell. Any thoughts on this?

 

Edited by Sandy Larsen
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1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

One thing I'd like to clear up is whether it was LEE or HARVEY doing all this stamp work. Based on everything I know, I tend to think that it was LEE who was spotted with the anti-Castro Cubans, and in a car going to Mexico. (But not going to the embassies.) And meeting with Nagell. Any thoughts on this?

Great question...

My $.02 suggests it was Harvey.   Lee was a marine, a fighter, a spy, a rogue....    yet I forgot to mention John's work on this:

The Dallas Police did not find a Warrior Stamp Kit at either Ruth Paine's or

Oswald's rooming house after the assassination. The Warrior Stamp Kit was not initialed

by Dallas Police detectives, was not listed on the DPD inventories of November 22-23,

and was not photographed on the floor of the Dallas Police station. 27

If anyone knows the inventory taken and returned, it's John.

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24 minutes ago, David Josephs said:
1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

One thing I'd like to clear up is whether it was LEE or HARVEY doing all this stamp work. Based on everything I know, I tend to think that it was LEE who was spotted with the anti-Castro Cubans, and in a car going to Mexico. (But not going to the embassies.) And meeting with Nagell. Any thoughts on this?

Great question...

My $.02 suggests it was Harvey.   Lee was a marine, a fighter, a spy, a rogue....


David,

Suppose you're right, that Harvey did the stamping on the military ID card. I assume you also believe it was Harvey who pasted his Minsk photo onto the card.

If that's the case, then the timing of events would need to be:

  1. Harvey removed the original photo from the card and pasted the Minsk photo in its place.
  2. Richard Case Nagell obtained a photocopy of the card. (With the Minsk photo, but no stamps.)
  3. Harvey applied the stamps in order to hide the stamp already on the Minsk photo.

What this suggests to me is that Nagell was associating with Harvey, not Lee, under your scenario.

This is problematic because according to John Armstrong's book, it was Lee whom Nagell was associated with. Nagell first met Lee in Japan, and then in a meeting with Lee in Mexico (in July 1963), and then in New Orleans. Since only Lee went to Japan, Armstrong seems to be right.

Do you want to change your opinion? Or do you have an alternative explanation?

 

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1 minute ago, Sandy Larsen said:

This is problematic because according to John Armstrong's book, it was Lee whom Nagell was associated with. Nagell first met Lee in Japan, and then in a meeting with Lee in Mexico (in July 1963), and then in New Orleans. Since only Lee went to Japan, Armstrong seems to be right.

Do you want to change your opinion? Or do you have an alternative explanation?

A number of people - also according to John - were aware of both men... Nagell was one of them....  Ruby another...

I forget the entire list...  I also feel that many of the things that are attributed to Harvey were created and/or signed by Lee...

 

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A solution to the Immunization Card riddle:

I will be working with the date, “Jun 8, 1963”, the Doctor’s name, “Dr. A. J. Hideel”, and the blur of letters inside the stamp on the right.

Translating the numbers to letters in “Jun 8, 1963”, we get, “JUN I TGD”. This anagrams to:

“DIG ‘J’ NUT”

Who the “J NUT” is, gets answered by anagramming, “Dr. A. J. Hideel”:

“A J.E.H. RIDDLE”

What J Edgar Hoover's "RIDDLE" is, gets answered in the next anagram. The letters inside the circle need to be seen in mirror image, and 8 of these are blurred, they are double struck. With the circle mirrored, then, we see:

“BBRRUU IINN CCAANN NUL”

The third letter from the end, “N”, is actually reversed, like a cyrillic letter, but I’m going to use it as an “N” because it’s meaning will become clear in the anagram of, “BBRRUU IINN CCAANN NUL”:

“I IN CUBA BLUR, CN RUN. N N/A” 

Lots of double entendres here, but it was “I” (Igor) that impersonated Harvey in the Cuba blur, “CN” (Case Nagell) ran off to the jail house, and that backwards “N”, is “N/A” (as the left-leaning Nagell was N/A after Sep 20).

Clever.

Apropos of the "Hideel" name on the Immunization form, "Richard Case Nagell" anagrams to:

“RCN, HIDEEL RASCAL. A 6”

The 6th word on the Immunization form is, “REVACCINATION”, and this anagrams to:

“RCN, IV,  A ‘E’ ACTION” 

“E” is Richard’s puzzle term for the assassination. It stands for “Edgar”.  

Opinion: Hey! "Igor" was "Lee".

 (A=0)(B=1)(C=2)(D=3)(E=4)(F=5)(G=6)(H=7)(I=8)(J=9)(K=10)(L=11)(M=12)(N=13)(O=14)(P=15)(Q=16)(R=17)(S=18)(T=19)(U=20)(V=21)(W=22)(X=23)(Y=24)(Z=25) 
Edited by Tom Hume
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4 hours ago, David Josephs said:
4 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

This is problematic because according to John Armstrong's book, it was Lee whom Nagell was associated with. Nagell first met Lee in Japan, and then in a meeting with Lee in Mexico (in July 1963), and then in New Orleans. Since only Lee went to Japan, Armstrong seems to be right.

Do you want to change your opinion? Or do you have an alternative explanation?

A number of people - also according to John - were aware of both men... Nagell was one of them....  Ruby another...

I forget the entire list...  I also feel that many of the things that are attributed to Harvey were created and/or signed by Lee...


That's good to know. I didn't see it in the book.

Unfortunately it makes the story behind the ID card harder to figure out.

 

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As far as I can remember, Nagell only associated with LEE Oswald, not HARVEY.  Nagell’s experiences seem to indicate that LEE was in on the conspiracy; in his featured role as “The Patsy-to-Be” HARVEY probably wasn’t.  <g>  However, this case puts everyone’s memory to the test, and I’m not getting any younger. 

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Working from an entirely different set of information, it’s my belief that Richard Nagell, Lee (Igor), and Harvey were working closely together. Richard and Lee were part of the assassination plot, and Harvey was the designated patsy. Harvey, of course, was supposed to know nothing, but he was fully informed. They were “ICO”, and the three of them were committed to preventing the assassination. As part of their alibi, should they fail, Richard, with help from Igor, created a huge system of telling puzzles and baffling enigmas, enigmas that are the subject of many books and many threads on this forum. 

These three guys were first-class spies that were absolutely appalled at what the powers that be were about to do to their country and its philosophical underpinnings.  

Except for the bona fides that they created and were created for them, I submit that we know very little about these three men. I also submit that they left us a big story that just might be true. 

 
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