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A Couple of Real Gems from the "Harvey and Lee" Website


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46 minutes ago, Tom Hume said:

Working from an entirely different set of information, it’s my belief that Richard Nagell, Lee (Igor), and Harvey were working closely together. Richard and Lee were part of the assassination plot, and Harvey was the designated patsy. Harvey, of course, was supposed to know nothing, but he was fully informed. They were “ICO”, and the three of them were committed to preventing the assassination.

Geez, Tom, you sure have my attention, but can you cite EVIDENCE to support any of this?

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Good morning Jim,

You asked if I could “cite EVIDENCE to support any of this?” Having just looked up the meaning of “evidence”, my answer is no, probably not. What I have is the belief that I stumbled on a rather large and clever set of letter puzzles that tell a story, one detail at a time, about Richard Nagell and his crew’s efforts to prevent the assassination and throw monkey wrenches into the framing of one of the crew members, the patsy. 

After several years at this, what I have is not hard evidence of anything, I have thousands of puzzle pieces that my mind has collated into a story, and I’m sure that some of these puzzles pieces have been misperceived by me, or are flat out wrong. I believe that I’ve only scratched the surface of the full story, and I’m absolutely certain that better minds than mine should be working on this. 

Once in a while, I find something that I think you all might be interested in, and if it’s not too cryptic or obtuse, I post it. My last post was #474, and at least 95% of my posts since 2010 have been on this one topic.

As I said many times, my goal is to attract real puzzle solvers to Richard Nagell’s puzzle system, and so far, I’ve had little success.

So there’s nothing I would call hard “evidence”, Jim, but that doesn’t mean I won’t stumble over some tomorrow. 

Tom

 
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Hi, Tom,

It may be that many of us here have a hard time knowing what to make of your posts for, I suspect, several reasons.  Speaking for myself, I just don’t know enough about cryptography or information theory to even guess at the odds that some of your “puzzle” solutions could appear randomly if enough potential solutions were applied to the content of any given document.

Secondly, although I certainly believe that there is a trainload of highly manipulated evidence currently in the JFK collection at the National Archives, it is hard for me to imagine how Nagell himself had the  means and the opportunity to introduce altered documents into the system so that it would eventually make it to NARA.  Can you shed light on either of these questions?

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Hi Jim - busy today, I'll get back to you tomorrow.

Edit 17:40 GMT Sunday: Jim, I think I just answered the thrust of your question on “The Stamp on the Military ID Card” thread. I don’t know how to answer your questions more fully, other than to keep adding things like this.

Tom

Edited by Tom Hume
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Harvey and Lee Critics Failed
   to Debunk ANYTHING
 I presented in this thread

This lengthy thread was started a half year ago when an H&L critic attempted to mock the clear fact that “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” command of the Russian language was FAR too good to be explained by his Official Biography®.  In post after post right here in this thread, I and others showed how wrong that critic was.   Eventually, the absurdity of the H&L critics’ arguments prompted Prof. James Norwood to research and write a definitive article on Oswald’s unexplained Russian language skills.  It can be read here:

http://harveyandlee.net/Russian.html

It hardly comes as a surprise that the H&L critics were unable to debunk a single one of the many examples presented in this thread proving that two young men were sharing the identity of “Lee Harvey Oswald” in the 1950s and early 1960s, all taken from information presented in John Armstrong’s book Harvey and Lee.  Among the examples the critics failed to debunk were:

  • “Lee Harvey Oswald” in the fall semester of 1953 simultaneously attended PS 44 in New York City and Beauregard Junior High School in New Orleans.  
  • The very next year, according to brother Robert, several newspaper accounts, NYC school records and numerous eyewitnesses recorded in currently accessible YouTube interviews, Oswald attended Stripling junior high in Fort Worth while simultaneously attending PS 44 in New York City. 
  • Lee Oswald’s half-brother John Pic told the Warren Commission several pictures of “Oswald,” including the famous Bronx Zoo, were not of his brother.
  • In September 1958, one Oswald sailed to the South China Sea and was stationed in Taiwan while the other was treated for VD in Japan.
  • In January 1961, one LHO appeared at the Bolton Ford truck dealership in New Orleans while the other was living in the USSR.
  • During roughly the same period, one LHO was spotted by Marita Lorenz and others in Miami and the Florida Everglades working with anti-Castro Cubans while the other LHO was living in Minsk.
  • Many existing documents indicate “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” height was 5’9” tall, while many others indicate he was 5’11”.  Hardly any show he was 5’10”.  H&L critics like to say Oswald sometimes “exaggerated” his height, as if the U.S. Marine Corps allowed it’s own soldiers to give estimates of their own heights on medical records. 
  • One Oswald did not drive and only had a learner’s permit.  The other did drive and had a valid Texas driver’s license.
  • One Oswald was seen by many witnesses in Dallas and with Jack Ruby in 1963 while the other Oswald was living in New Orleans.
  • “Lee Harvey Oswald” according to DPD reports and civilian eyewitnesses, was arrested in the Texas Theater balcony AND on the main floor.   One was led out the theater back door, and the other out the front.
  • While one LHO was elsewhere, the other was seen at the Sports Drome Rifle Range on Oct. 26, Nov. 9, Nov. 10, and again on Nov. 17, several times creating a scene and once shooting at another guy's target. A second Oswald was seen at the Downtown Lincoln Mercury dealership in Dallas on Nov. 2 where he test drove a car at wrecklessly high speeds saying he would soon come into enough money to buy a new car.
  • While Harvey Oswald was working at the Texas Book Depository, another LHO appeared at the Irving Furniture Mart On Nov. 6 or 7 for a gun part where he was referred to the shop where Dial Ryder worked, and at the Southland Hotel parking garage (Allright Parking Systems) on Nov. 15 to apply for a job and oh-so-subtly ask how high the Southland Building was and if it had a good view of downtown Dallas.
  • While Harvey Oswald was still working at the Book Depository on November 20, a second LHO was hitchhiking on the R.L. Thornton Expressway while carrying a 4-foot long package wrapped in brown paper and introducing himself to Ralph Yates as “Lee Harvey Oswald.” He discussed the President's visit, wondered if you could shoot a president, and asked to be dropped across the street from the Texas School Book Depository (where Russian-speaking “Lee Harvey Oswald” was already at work).
  • Harvey and Lee and this thread have also provided many examples of how Hoover’s FBI altered witness statements about events in Dealey Plaza, altered sworn testimony of their own agents at the Warren Commission hearings, and lied about the secret transfer and alteration of “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” so-called possessions.

The critics’ failure to debunk any of the above didn’t surprise me.  Most of John’s major points about the Two Oswalds simply cannot be discounted.  Toward the end of their appearances in this thread the critics claimed, without citing any evidence at all, that  a fellow named “Greg Parker” had explained everything on another website, but they failed to show (or even summarize) those explanations here.  Had they done so, people like myself, David Josephs, Sandy Larsen, and James Norwood could have easily torn those arguments to pieces.  Of course, they didn’t have the courage to debate the issue here, claiming only that Greg Parker had all the answers.

Perhaps one or more of the H&L Hit Team will resurrect the Greg Parker excuse now, but you can bet they wont try to debate the issues here, where all can see the paucity and speciousness of their arguments.

Toward the end of this thread, at least up to this point, ONE THING ABOUT THE H&L CRITICS AMAZED ME! I’m sure it is obvious to anyone who reads the last few pages of this thread. 

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3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

This lengthy thread was started a half year ago when an H&L critic attempted to mock the clear fact that “Lee Harvey Oswald’s” command of the Russian language was FAR too good to be explained by his Official Biography®.  In post after post right here in this thread, I and others showed how wrong that critic was.   Eventually, the absurdity of the H&L critics’ arguments prompted Prof. James Norwood to research and write a definitive article on Oswald’s unexplained Russian language skills.  It can be read here:

http://harveyandlee.net/Russian.html


An excellent article by Prof. Norwood. (BTW, it isn't just for Harvey & Lee advocates.)

 

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11 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Harvey and Lee Critics Failed
   to Debunk ANYTHING

First, I understand Jim Hargrove creates posts like this hoping to get a response from myself or other H&L critics. Such discussions are the best form of advertising for the H&L theory and Armstrong’s book and some time ago I realized I was the best thing that ever happened to them. As I have mentioned, I don’t intend to do too much more regarding the already discredited H&L theory. At my age, time is limited and I have a few things I would like to do that are much more important. I will briefly address a few things though.

Hargrove continues to imply that because Greg Parker is no longer allowed to post at the EF that arguments he makes at his own website are somehow less valid. Parker has discussed several issues at his site, sometimes quoting directly from threads here at EF. Anyone can follow the links that have been posted repeatedly here and decide for themselves which argument they favor. And as anyone who has followed the debate knows, the issues have been discussed repeatedly right here at EF dating back at least as far as 2015. Hargrove simply prefers to have the issues debated here on his “home turf” to call attention to his and Armstrong’s work.

Hargrove is touting the recent article by Dr. Norwood as the “definitive” work on the subject of LHO’s Russian language ability. It is no such thing. A definitive article would document all the witness reports on LHO’s ability and place them in context. It would explain that the witnesses are in general agreement and any anomalies are explainable and understandable. Instead, Norwood “cherry picks” the evidence and emphasizes anything that helps his theory while dismissing the overwhelming evidence provided by the people in Russia who lived and worked with LHO and by Marina. This evidence shows that LHO acquired the language gradually and became fluent simply because he spoke it every day. Of course, Norwood thinks LHO (Harvey) was a spy who was playing a game with his Russian hosts.

Hargrove and Sandy Larsen also imply that the H&L critics “disappeared” at the same time. The implication is that the critics are being centrally controlled by some higher power (the CIA perhaps). This is nonsense of course as most of the critics are conspiracy believers themselves. It could simply be that the critics have better things to do than spend every day responding to people who continue to hold on to a belief that has been scientifically disproven.

I won’t bother to repost links to the many rebuttals of the H&L theory. Those interested may refer to page 70 of this thread where I previously posted such links. Despite what Hargrove would have you believe, the links do lead to actual websites where there is in formation rebutting his arguments.

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Just now, Michael Walton said:

What I  find truly hilarious - and probably the most unintentionally ironic posts of late here - is how Jim Hargrove is having a hard time keeping up with Tom Humes' funny ICO secret code posts.

As if! 

OMG really and truly so funny. I'm  giggling even as I  type this.

Mr. Walton...

You have anything to rebut the work of Mr. Hume?
You have anything that disproves his theories?
How well versed are you at anagrams - enough so to speak intelligently about it and how it relates to spy craft?

IOW Michael... laughing at what you don't understand is both demeaning to the person and indicative of the openness of your mind to new ideas...

Lifton was met with the same silliness when the casket charade was being unearthed....  until he was proven correct.

Forgive me if indeed you've studied spy craft anagram communications and can explain how Tom is wrong... 

or are you of the opinion that the CIA/KGB and every other Intel agency on the planet do not use anagrams?

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7 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

What I  find truly hilarious - and probably the most unintentionally ironic posts of late here - is how Jim Hargrove is having a hard time keeping up with Tom Humes' funny ICO secret code posts.

As if! 

OMG really and truly so funny. I'm  giggling even as I  type this.

I know, and the less we intervene the funnier it gets! Watch as they disappear down the kitchen sink with all the other odd-balls and cranks that love to enhance their sad little lives with a puffed up sense of self importance and chronic delusions of grandeur.

See how every post is now directed to the "detractors"? It used to be "non-believers", a phrase constantly used by cults to describe fallen members, but even they could see the creepy similarity. 

Let them play. Without us responding they have NO purpose.

 

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8 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Mr. Walton...

You have anything to rebut the work of Mr. Hume?

Instead of me answering that, maybe I should ask you...

Do you really, truly believe all of the stuff that I've read about you on this forum could have happened? You must have a really deep-seated dislike or mistrust of the government to think that they could have done the things you and others think happened with the JFK case.

Or perhaps you just don't have the ability or a "ring of truth" bell in your head.  If you did, I really think that you (and others) would not fall for the HL caper, the funny Humes secret agent codes, the sinister changing and forging the plats of the street displays, all of the films and photos were somehow doctored, and all the rest.

The best I've read of you is the MC impersonation.  That definitely has the ring of truth to it and it's been further proven with State Secret, that someone was faking Oswald (and Duran) down there. If the planners' sole goal was for Lee to take the blame, there really was no need for him to go down there in the first place when they could have had someone impersonate him (and Duran too). It's simple common sense and often times, common sense and the simpler answers are the ones that prevail.

I've noticed, too, that one of the biggest problems with "researchers" is that they tend to read a statement or piece of testimony and try to shoehorn a sentence or word into their outlandish beliefs to "prove" they have the answers.

So it really, truly is surprising for me to have someone like you write a well-documented story (MC) but then also believe in the funny stuff as well.

And no one is running, David. To be honest, the silliness on this thread - though funny - can be tiresome too.  It's often like telling your kid there are no monsters in your closet but they keep going on and on and on "But, but, but...." Even kind, patient parents have a limit.

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On 9/12/2017 at 6:33 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

Harvey Oswald’s Photo
on Lee Oswald’s DoD ID Card

Russian-speaking Lee HARVEY Oswald (the man killed by Jack Ruby) was 5’9” (69 inches) tall.  American-born LEE Harvey Oswald was 5’11” (71 inches) tall.  It is becoming increasingly apparent that someone pasted a Russian photograph of the shorter Oswald on the U.S. Department of Defense ID card of the taller Oswald.

The subject of this ID card is explored on the following Education Forum thread:

 

 

In the Ed Forum thread, I posted these illustrations of the card:

LHO%202%20ID%20cards.jpg

 

LHO%20ID%20card.jpg

 


A number of people on the forum questioned the circular post office stamp dated October 23, 1963 that is on the card.  Some people thought the card might have been “lost” and dropped into a U.S. Mail box.  Chris Newton and Mark Knight noted that it appeared to be the type of card issued to U.S. military “dependents.”  Jim DiEugenio, Mark Stevens and others noted that the photo on the card appeared to be identical to a photo of Oswald purportedly taken in Minsk AFTER the ID card was allegedly issued.

Below, from the Warren Commission, are two photos of “Lee Harvey Oswald” allegedly taken in Minsk.  In Commission Exhibit 2892 (right), note the off-white roughly quarter circle that appears to be painted on the lower right of the image.


Minsk_LHO_PX.jpg

 

Tom Hume pointed out that the card should have been laminated, but didn’t appear to be.  Other forum members agreed.  Chris Newton published a better image of the suspect card.


cmn_best_id.jpg

 

Richard Price and Sandy Larsen  pointed out that the postal stamp appeared to be forged.  Sandy wrote:


… the three circles on the photo don't line up with the three on the ID. Also, it looks like the "IUL" is really ‘IUI.’”  Chris Newton wrote, “Another problem: The "Expiration Date" : 7 Dec 1962 ...    no real clerk in the military writes "1962" there.  It's just "62" gentlemen.”  Sandy asked, “Has the erased semicircle of the photo been discussed? The lower-right corner of the photo has been painted white for some reason. The whited out part is in the shape of a semicircle.”  Chris posted the following image as “an aid to visualizing the circles:
 

cmn_best_circles.jpg

 

Then Chris posted the following image of a 1946 Soviet passport.  Note the photo and the stamp.

 

104.png
 

I posted that  “… you could make the case that the LHO photo on his suspect DoD ID card was actually created, and processed, by a Russian passport authority….  Is it possible that the circular stamps were created mostly to obscure the tell-tale Soviet circular inset in the bottom right portion of the photo?”  Chris said he was inclined to agree.

I wrote, “According to the Official Story®, Oswald flew from Minsk to Moscow on Saturday, July 8, 1961, called Richard Snyder at home, and said he wanted to return to the United States. Snyder said he wanted to interview Marina, and she, apparently like her husband, also flew to Moscow the following Monday, and like her husband, didn’t seek police permission. That same Monday, Snyder supposedly renewed Oswald’s U.S. passport.

“Why then, do we have what appears to be a Soviet passport photo of Oswald attached to a phony DoD ID card?  Could it be that the official story is untrue, that Oswald DID NOT get his U.S. passport renewed at the American Embassy, and instead traveled back to the U.S. on a Soviet passport?

“Would there be any other reason for Oswald to have obtained a Soviet-style passport photo of himself? Has anyone ever seen a hint of any evidence that Oswald had a Russian passport?”

Sandy Larsen noted that “In my searching around I found that 1) stamping over the photo was a common thing in Europe at the time; and 2) they would do that for all kinds of IDs.

Here's a Soviet ID for some kind of sports union:”

MS-Card-and-Pin11.jpg


 

Sandy also noted that “Oswald might have had a number of ID cards. For example, a residency card and a work permit.”

 

David Josephs posted two images showing “a bit more detail on those circles…. “

59a6fc7d2fc59_OswaldDoDdd1173Postmarkana

David indicated that this is how the card “SHOULD have looked when issued:”

59a6fd077c907_OswaldDoDdd1173Postmarkana

 

Sandy Larsen analyzed the graphics from the bogus DoD ID and the Russian passport and wrote that he would propose “that the photo on Oswald's ID card came from an ID that he used while in the Soviet Union. He (or somebody else) removed the photo and pasted it to the military ID card. Upon doing so, the photo showed a remnant of the old Russian stamp, but of course the ID had no such stamp. So Oswald (or somebody else) decided he had to fake a stamp on the ID so that the stamp on the photo-only wasn't so obvious. He took a circular stamp and made a couple of impressions, with one lining up pretty well with the outer, Russian stamp. (The blue line, above.) Then he stamped it again with the circle, offsetting it from the first to give it some "depth" or complexity. And then he finished up his work with the date stamps. By making it complex, it provided some camouflage for the stamp on the photo. Without looking close, uninformed people would see something that looked about right, and that looked official.”


Sandy added the following hypothesis:

I suggest that that is a possibility. That Oswald was indeed a "DoD civilian employee contractor" at some point.

And here's something for Harvey & Lee theory adherents: LEE Oswald may very well have been  a "DoD civilian employee contractor and needed access to a US facility overseas" after his time in the Marines. In which case his (and not HARVEY's) photo would have originally been pasted on the card.

And here's an add-on hypothesis: On assassination day, HARVEY wasn't killed as planned because Officer Tippet got cold feet. Tippet had to be taken out and his killing blamed on Oswald if at all possible. The assassination wrap up team had to come up with a fake Oswald wallet on the spur of the moment. They found that they has LEE's expired DoD Civilian Contractor card and one of HARVEY's expired Soviet identification cards. They ripped the photos off the two cards and pasted the Russian ID photo onto LEE's DOD Civilian Contractor card. Then they did the silly stamping to camouflage the Russian stamp on the photo. And they put this card inside Oswald's fake wallet.”

The thread excerpted above is, at the time of this writing, still very much in progress on the Ed Forum.  I just got home from a nearly week-long mini-vacation and I’m still catching up to recent developments on this subject.  But the question remains….

Why did a photo of the 5’9” (69 inch) Russian-speaking Oswald get placed on a DoD ID card, apparently of the type issued to DoD dependents, that clearly refers to a 5’11” (71 inch) Lee Harvey Oswald?  Was the original picture that of the taller American-born Oswald?  Why was a photo used that  appears to have been taken and processed inside the Soviet Union?

From what I’ve read so far, Sandy Larsen’s theory immediately above seems logical.   The ID card is one of the pieces of evidence that has always intrigued the author of Harvey and Lee, as indicated by the cover of the book.

Book.jpg


 

I thought I’d repost the article above to see if any of the H&L critics would like to discuss evidence here, although they will probably just prefer to conduct the usual gossip and provide links to other sites, pretending those sites actually debunked Harvey and Lee, which none of them do.
 

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New PDF Version of
Harvey and Lee from
the United Kingdom


A nicely scanned version of Harvey and Lee has been available for years at a website run by Barry Krusch.  Since it is technically a pirated version, I won’t give the address here, but it is easy to find on Google.

Now, the editor of a well known U.K. website has just completed a new PDF version of Harvey and Lee and is seeking John’s permission to use it.  Great care obviously was taken in the preparation of this version, and it includes some added research tools.  If John and the U.K. organization reach an agreement, I’ll post a link to the file.

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