Does Lifton's Best Evidence indicate that the coverup and the crime were committed by the same people?

[Paul Trejo]

5 hours ago, Ron Ecker said:

Baloney. Since when does not knowing all the answers invalidate a theory? (The theory in this case being Operation Northwoods Revised Edition, with a decision then made not to blame Cuba, making the long sheep-dipping of Oswald a waste of time, for reasons that can be debated, though a crucial factor would be Oswald being captured.) 

The theory of evolution is the cornerstone of modern biology. But we don't know everything about how evolution works. Issues are debated. I guess that invalidates the theory, right?

Ron,

I don't mean to insult your position -- you could be right.  It could be a CIA plot with an "Operation Northwoods Revised Edition" model -- which made a last-minute decision not to use the sheep-dipped Oswald as a Communist patsy -- but instead as a Lone-nut patsy.   That is not impossible.  I'm not saying it's impossible.

Yet I want to get down to the ground-crew.  If the Dallas Police and Deputies who "found" the rifle and bullets on the 6th floor TSBD actually planted them there (as I maintain), then a local plot makes the most sense.

I agree with you emphatically that the JFK assassination was a military-style ambush -- and yet there were plenty of ex-military people who lived in Dallas.  Ex-General Edwin Walker is a case in point -- and James Hosty said Walker led his own Minutemen militia in Dallas.  The Minutemen were largely composed of ex-military men.

Occam's Razor says that the JFK plot was a Dallas plot.  That's why there were so few loose threads.

The first problem they had was that Oswald was not shot in the streets as planned.  So they had to convince Jack Ruby to finish their job -- and Jack Ruby was in thrall to the Dallas Police.  This was a last-minute decision.

The second problem was that Dean Rusk and Nick Katzenbach stared down Waggoner Carr and Henry Wade so that they removed the "Communist plot" item from their indictment of Oswald.  J. Edgar Hoover and LBJ both got behind the "Lone Nut" theory before the day was over.

Ultimately, the Dallas Radical Right plot failed in its main goal -- to invade Cuba.  JFK was only collateral damage for them.  The main goal was lost.   That ties things up with a silver bow, IMHO.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited April 6, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

5 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Unless the freshly captured patsy was going to confess -- "I did it with Castro!" -- there was no way to sell the Castro-did-it narrative.

Oswald had to die that afternoon or the frame falls apart.

From James Bamford's Body of Secrets (pg 84), emphasis added:

(quote on)

On February 20, 1962, [John] Glenn was to lift off from Cape Canaveral, Florida,on his historic journey. The flight was to carry the banner of America's virtues of truth, freedom, and democracy into orbit high over the planet. But [Chairmanof the JCS] Lemnitzer and his Chiefs had a different idea. They proposed to [Operation Mongoose chief] Lansdale that, should the rocket explode and kill Glenn, "the objective is to provide irrevocable proof that...the fault lies with the Communists et al Cuba [sic]." This would be accomplished, Lemnitzer continued, "by manufacturing various pieces of evidence which would prove electronic interference on the part of the Cubans." Thus, as NASA prepared to send the first American into space, the Joint Chiefs of Staff were preparing to use John Glenn's possible death as a pre-text to launch a war.

(quote off)

The Operation Northwoods playbook required "irrevocable proof" of Commie complicity.

A living patsy monkey-wrenched that scenario.

Cliff,

As I said to Ron -- the "Operation Northwoods" playbook remains a real possibility.  I'm not discounting it entirely.

Yet for the main point -- "a living patsy monkey-wrenched that scenario," you've only claimed it -- you haven't demonstrated it.

Oswald was never going to say "I did it with Castro," and in fact that was NEVER part of any plot.  The original plot had somebody kill Oswald IN THE STREETS.

There was already PLENTY of evidence to convict a dead Oswald -- namely, his rifle on the 6th floor of the TSBD.  But there was even MORE evidence to convict the Communists, namely, Oswald's name in the New Orleans newspapers, Oswald's voice on New Orleans radio, and even Oswald's personality on New Orleans TV.

Then -- the clincher -- Oswald's telephone call to KGB assassin Valeriy Kostikov in Mexico City during the end of September and beginning of October 1963.

Oswald was a Communist -- and he killed JFK.   He didn't have to say a WORD.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

3 hours ago, Micah Mileto said:

The red blob on the Zapruder Film is supposed to be a bone flap, not brains excruciating from the temporal area.

Micah,

We can't freeze-frame reality.   If the skull bone flaps open by the force of a high-powered bullet -- does the brain just stay put?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

2 hours ago, Gerry Simone said:

We can rest assured that Pat Speer will find the devil in the detail.  I will check those video aides in due course.  Thanks Paul.

Gerry,

Pat Speer's page is slow because he has too much on one page.   It's a huge page.  But the four videos I'm talking about are the LAST FOUR ON THE PAGE.

They are stacked on top of each other, and at least one is titled, "Noise-O-Vision" or some such.

It's easy to get lost in that large page.   But just rush to the bottom.  The videos are short.

Let me know!
--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

1 hour ago, Gerry Simone said:

I agree with all of the above, except that the whole point of the JFK Assassination was not just about invading Cuba. Cuba could've been the so called "patsy" for an excuse. Cuba leads back to the Soviets.  Oswald allegedly contacted a Soviet official in MC I believe (further incrimination).  VietNam is also still important.  There were a few reasons why hardliners (in intelligence, military and business circles as well as the Mob) wanted JFK to go away.  In essence, the JFK Assassination may have started as a false flag operation to reverse JFK's policies of peace around the world, since there were many foes to deal with (not just Cubans).  The WH was not about to declare war.  Money had to be made in VietNam.  LBJ and Hoover could go on with their careers on their own terms.

Gerry,

Of course the USSR was behind Cuba, and behind the politics of the day.  Yet Cuba was a violation of the MONROE DOCTRINE according to General Walker and others.

As for Vietnam, it was on the agenda -- but please, let us go back to 1963 if we can -- and try to put ourselves back into the Cuban Missile Crisis mood -- and try to gauge just how crucial Cuba was as a means to re-unite the Radical Right in the USA.

Cuba wasn't all-important -- but Cuba was enormous in 1963 as a political football, and the Radical Right -- and the Minutemen -- had many Cuban Expatriates in Miami and New Orleans (and even Dallas) to push, prod and finance a terrifying act.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Ron Ecker]

15 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

I agree with you emphatically that the JFK assassination was a military-style ambush -- and yet there were plenty of ex-military people who lived in Dallas.  Ex-General Edwin Walker is a case in point -- and James Hosty said Walker led his own Minutemen militia in Dallas.  The Minutemen were largely composed of ex-military men.

Occam's Razor says that the JFK plot was a Dallas plot.

I have to wonder why the powers that be would have been so hellbent to cover up for a local Dallas plot. I can see Walker as a potential Dallas patsy much more than as a murderer protected by a massive government cover-up. I have to think that the cover-uppers were covering up for people more important than Walker and his Minutemen.

 

 

 

[Cliff Varnell]

3 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

Hi Cliff, while searching this issue, I have seen your posts regarding the drug trade as it related to my working pet-theory. I am thinking that the Far-Right and Indurial and oil concerns were not interested in the drug trade angle at that time. I think that the Mafia got left in the cold on that.

I assume you have a solid basis for your assertion that Castro's Cuba was a drug hub. I find that surprising. To be sure, I have not yet delved into that being a possibility. It seems to me that drug hubs can, and probably should be shifted around. My limited knowledge tells me that those hubs did, over the next decades, shift around, quite a bit (Montreal, Arkansas?). 

So, no I think that if the drug angle did have a play in the decision making, the results would testify that the winners were glad to see a drug-hub develop somewhere other than Cuba.

Cheers,

Michael

Hi Michael -- Meyer Lansky developed pre-Castro Cuba as the center of international narcotics trafficking.  Under Castro it was a boutique operation -- far from a "hub.".  He forced the Sicilian/American Mafia to move their operations to the Dominican Republic and the Bahamas. 

Only 90 miles from the American mainland, Cuba was the ideal location for drug smuggling.

For the Skull & Bones crew it wasn't just the black money they derived from heroin -- it was social control, a holocaust by another means in American inner cities.

Who do you define as "the winners"?

[Cliff Varnell]

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

Cliff,

As I said to Ron -- the "Operation Northwoods" playbook remains a real possibility.  I'm not discounting it entirely.

Yet for the main point -- "a living patsy monkey-wrenched that scenario," you've only claimed it -- you haven't demonstrated it.

Oswald was never going to say "I did it with Castro," and in fact that was NEVER part of any plot.  The original plot had somebody kill Oswald IN THE STREETS.

There was already PLENTY of evidence to convict a dead Oswald -- namely, his rifle on the 6th floor of the TSBD.  But there was even MORE evidence to convict the Communists, namely, Oswald's name in the New Orleans newspapers, Oswald's voice on New Orleans radio, and even Oswald's personality on New Orleans TV.

Then -- the clincher -- Oswald's telephone call to KGB assassin Valeriy Kostikov in Mexico City during the end of September and beginning of October 1963.

Oswald was a Communist -- and he killed JFK.   He didn't have to say a WORD.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Good job explaining my point, Paul.

The only way to ensure that Oswald wouldn't say a word was to kill him right away.  Once that option was off the table there could be no "irrevocable proof of Communist complicity" and thus the Castro-did-it scenario was taken off the table.

[Michael Clark]

Just now, Cliff Varnell said:

Hi Michael -- Meyer Lansky developed pre-Castro Cuba as the center of international narcotics trafficking.  Under Castro it was a boutique operation -- far from a "hub.".  He forced the Sicilian/American Mafia to move their operations to the Dominican Republic and the Bahamas. 

Only 90 miles from the American mainland, Cuba was the ideal location for drug smuggling.

For the Skull & Bones crew it wasn't just the black money they derived from heroin -- it was social control, a holocaust by another means in American inner cities.

Who do you define as "the winners"?

Thanks Cliff, there's a lot to unwrap in what you have posted. I'll dig in.

By "winners" I am referring to one of my two factions in my working theory of a Far-Right/Industrial faction double-crossing an Anti-Castro Cuban/Mob faction. The Anti-Castro Cuban/Mob faction lost; They didn't get Cuba, the Casino's or their old drug-hub back.

Cheers,

Michael

[Cliff Varnell]

10 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

Thanks Cliff, there's a lot to unwrap in what you have posted. I'll dig in.

By "winners" I am referring to one of my two factions in my working theory of a Far-Right/Industrial faction double-crossing an Anti-Castro Cuban/Mob faction. The Anti-Castro Cuban/Mob faction lost; They didn't get Cuba, the Casino's or their old drug-hub back.

Cheers,

Michael

Check out George HW Bush's Zapata Off-Shore/drug smuggling for the intersection of the oil and heroin trades.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Cliff Varnell

[Michael Clark]

1 minute ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Check out George HW Bush's Zapata Off-Shore.

Cliff, thanks. That pops-up like whack-a-mole. Poppy has managed to steer-clear of Mob connections, on the surface anyway.

Cheers,

Michael

[Cliff Varnell]

1 minute ago, Michael Clark said:

Cliff, thanks. That pops-up like whack-a-mole. Poppy has managed to steer-clear of Mob connections, on the surface anyway.

Cheers,

Michael

Google "zapata off-shore drug smuggling" and you'll find lots of material.

[Michael Clark]

2 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Google "zapata off-shore drug smuggling" and you'll find lots of material.

Cliff, thank you sir. I will do that.

Cheers,

Michael

[Michael Clark]

6 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

Cliff, thank you sir. I will do that.

Cheers,

Michael

Cliff, To be sure, Poppy, at 39, didn't have the juice to conduct the whole show in Dallas, in 1963.

Cheers,

Michael

[Cliff Varnell]

10 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

Cliff, To be sure, Poppy, at 39, didn't have the juice to conduct the whole show in Dallas, in 1963.

Cheers,

Michael

His dad worked for Brown Brothers Harriman bank, with lots of Harriman money invested in Zapata.

Here's an intrigung take on "Kingslayer" W. Averell Harriman:

Joseph Trento, The Secret History of the CIA, pgs 334-5:

<quote on, emphasis added>

Who changed the coup into the murder of Diem, Nhu and a Catholic priest accompanying them? To this day, nothing has been found in government archives tying the killings to either John or Robert Kennedy. So how did the tools and talents developed by Bill Harvey for ZR/RIFLE and Operation MONGOOSE get exported to Vietnam? Kennedy immediately ordered (William R.) Corson to find out what had happened and who was responsible. The answer he came up with: “On instructions from Averell Harriman…. The orders that ended in the deaths of Diem and his brother originated with Harriman and were carried out by Henry Cabot Lodge’s own military assistant.”

Having served as ambassador to Moscow and governor of New York, W. Averell Harriman was in the middle of a long public career. In 1960, President-elect Kennedy appointed him ambassador-at-large, to operate “with the full confidence of the president and an intimate knowledge of all aspects of United States policy.” By 1963, according to Corson, Harriman was running “Vietnam without consulting the president or the attorney general.”

The president had begun to suspect that not everyone on his national security team was loyal. As Corson put it, “Kenny O’Donnell (JFK’s appointments secretary) was convinced that McGeorge Bundy, the national security advisor, was taking orders from Ambassador Averell Harriman and not the president. He was especially worried about Michael Forrestal, a young man on the White House staff who handled liaison on Vietnam with Harriman.”

At the heart of the murders was the sudden and strange recall of Sagon Station Chief Jocko Richardson and his replacement by a no-name team barely known to history. The key member was a Special Operations Army officer, John Michael Dunn, who took his orders, not from the normal CIA hierarchy but from Harriman and Forrestal.

According to Corson, “John Michael Dunn was known to be in touch with the coup plotters,” although Dunn’s role has never been made public. Corson believes that Richardson was removed so that Dunn, assigned to Ambassador Lodge for “special operations,” could act without hindrance.

<quote off>

Edited April 7, 2017 by Cliff Varnell