Does Lifton's Best Evidence indicate that the coverup and the crime were committed by the same people?

[Sandy Larsen]

51 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

15 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

But my question is this: If the goal of the assassination plotters was to make it appear that the assassination was a Russian plot, why try to limit the blame to one shooter?? Why not allow Oswald to be caught so that the Soviet ties could be discovered, AND allow the discovery that other shooters had been involved as well? IOW, a shoot team under Soviet control or influence.

Do you (or anybody here) have any thoughts explaining this?

According to the Operation Northwoods playbook "irrevocable evidence of Communist complicity" was required for swift action, but a patsy captured alive -- professing his innocence -- destroyed that rationale.

Thanks for your answer Cliff. I see now that I misspoke when I wrote it. (Maybe that's the reason nobody else has attempted to answer it.)

Here is my corrected question. I hope that you or anybody else can answer it.

If the goal of the plotters was to make it appear that the assassination was a Russian plot, why try to limit the blame to one shooter?? Why not allow Oswald to be caught (but quickly killed) so that the his so-called Soviet ties could be discovered -- thus implicating the Russians -- AND also allow the discovery that other shooters had been involved as well? (In other words, a shoot team under Soviet control or influence.)

I don't understand why it was necessary to limit the number of shooters to just one.

 

 

[Ron Ecker]

13 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I don't understand why it was necessary to limit the number of shooters to just one.

 

It wasn't.

 

[Gerry Simone]

12 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

I though of that after I signed-off last night.

But hey, it's the plan A, B, C, D thing

 

******** edit: Paul. Here is a short thread you may be interested in

 

Allen Eaglesham and James Rinnovatore's book, The JFK Assassination Revisited - A Synthesis, is a good book.

[Gerry Simone]

3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Thanks for your answer Cliff. I see now that I misspoke when I wrote it. (Maybe that's the reason nobody else has attempted to answer it.)

Here is my corrected question. I hope that you or anybody else can answer it.

If the goal of the plotters was to make it appear that the assassination was a Russian plot, why try to limit the blame to one shooter?? Why not allow Oswald to be caught (but quickly killed) so that the his so-called Soviet ties could be discovered -- thus implicating the Russians -- AND also allow the discovery that other shooters had been involved as well? (In other words, a shoot team under Soviet control or influence.)

I don't understand why it was necessary to limit the number of shooters to just one.

 

 

Doesn't this go back to the argument about the concern for starting a WWIII expressed by LBJ before the WC is formed?  Maybe this also militates LBJ being the mastermind, and that he didn't buy the false flag of Soviet-Cuban complicity in the assassination.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Gerry Simone

[Gerry Simone]

3 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

According to the Operation Northwoods playbook "irrevocable evidence of Communist complicity" was required for swift action, but a patsy captured alive -- professing his innocence -- destroyed that rationale.

"Irrevocable evidence of Communist Complicity" is taken from the ON plan?  Wow.  Talk about a playbook indeed.

(I saw an Italian film in 2003 about the murder of a socialist or communist leader and others during a parade in post-war Italy.  The alleged shooter was poisoned to death while in jail before his trial.  The "Mark Lane"-type prosecutor who investigated the assassination and called the evidence into question, also postulated a conspiracy involving elites including the CIA's James Jesus Angleton.  Angleton was stationed in Italy in earlier days.  It certainly raised my eyebrow when I saw that, and I thought "M.O. for the JFK Assassination".  The real historical event involved a massacre but the movie's investigation storyline was fictional)  http://www.cineuropa.org/nw.aspx?t=newsdetail&l=en&did=36855

 

 

[Gerry Simone]

On 4/8/2017 at 9:05 PM, Paul Trejo said:

Gerry,

Thanks for the continuing dialog.  I'm familiar with all of the objections you've raised -- since yours is the majority position, IMHO.   Yet please allow me to argue against the tide here -- since it may be interesting to you.

(This is also relevant to the theme of this thread -- namely -- why the JFK Cover-up Team was sharply different from the JFK Kill Team, and why this supports David Lifton's pre-autopsy autopsy findings.)

1.  Although I do agree with you that Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO) himself had politics leaning to the Right (which is in line with his career in the Marines and his working with David Ferrie at 544 Camp Street) I still maintain that LHO tried to kill General Walker.

2.  The strongest evidence comes from George De Mohrenschildt (DM) in his WC testimony but also in his 1977 manuscript, I'm a Patsy! I'm a Patsy! which he wrote before he committed suicide.

3.  George DM admitted he had a close relationship with LHO in 1962-1963, and that George used to harshly criticize General Walker to LHO.  They used to call General Walker, "General Fokker," together.

4.  George DM also named his friend, Volkmar Schmidt in this regard.   Volkmar can be found on YouTube, in a Frontline Special, admitting that he worked for a long time to get LHO to regard General Walker as another Adolf Hitler.  

5.  George DM was sometimes an informant for the CIA, also an oil geologist, also a college professor.  LHO was in thrall to George DM, and possibly hoped to get a job in the CIA if he could only impress George DM.

6.  George DM hated General Walker with a purple passion.  This is because George DM was a Russian Expatriate, who not only hated Russian Communists, but after the German Nazi's failed to help him get his family Estate back, but instead ravaged his homeland, so that in WW2 Russia was hit harder than any other nation -- George DM also hated German Nazis, and extended this to all racists and all fascists.  

7.  For George DM and Volkmar Schmidt -- General Walker was a fascist.  These two men had the ear of LHO in 1962-1963.

8.  It therefore makes some sense that a Right-winger like LHO would try to kill a Right-winger like General Walker -- if it would please a nice guy like George DM (and possibly get LHO a regular career in the CIA, which he wanted more than anything on earth).

9.  As for David Atlee Phillips (DAP), I accept the evidence that Antonio Veciana (Alpha 66) met LHO and DAP in Dallas in September 1963.  This was, I maintain, in the context of assassinating Fidel Castro.  

10.  This was also in connection with Guy Banister, David Ferrie and Interpen guys in New Orleans.  DAP was involved with them, too -- yet that was in the context of assassinating Fidel Castro.

11.  DAP wrote a manuscript, named, The AMLASH Legacy (1988) which is a novelette based loosely on his life -- in which he claims that he was one of the handlers of LHO, in the context of assassinating Fidel Castro -- and he could not explain how LHO was hijacked by some other group.

12.  As for Mexico City -- there are two 21st century classics in field today: (12.1) the Lopez Report, which is mandatory reading; and (12.2) State Secret: Wiretapping in Mexico City (2014) by Bill Simpich, which is a free eBook, and is also mandatory reading.

13.  Their portrait is that LHO was indeed in Mexico CIty trying to get a instant visa into Cuba based on his alleged leadership position in the FPCC which LHO argued based on his many newspaper clippings in New Orleans showing he was on radio and TV -- and a street fight -- for the FPCC.

13.1.  On at least one occasion, some CIA mole (probably David Morales) impersonated LHO over the Cuban consulate telephone calling the USSR Embassy and asking for KGB assassin Valeriy Kostikov.  

13.2.  The purpose of this telephone impersonation was to link the names of LHO and Kostikov in CIA records.

13.3.  The CIA translators knew within minutes that this was an impersonation.   The CIA high-command then knew it had to be a Mole.

13.4.  The CIA high-command started a top-secret Mole Hunt within the hour.  They changed LHO's photograph and changed his middle name to Henry in his CIA file.

13.5.  The upshot is that LHO went to Mexico City and was also impersonated there.   It isn't an either/or scenario.

13.6.  The reason for the confusion about the audio tapes and the photograph is that there was an ongoing CIA Mole Hunt involving these artifacts. 

14.  As for David Ferrie -- he was smart, but not that smart.   He was also a de-frocked priest, a dabbler in cancer research, a dabbler in hypnosis, and a minister of a mail-order Church, just like Fred Crisman -- and the two were in competition regarding the young boys they wanted to impress.  

15.  That is, David Ferrie may have been brilliant -- but he was a brilliant mind with derelictions.  

16.  David Ferrie helped Guy Banister offer legal support to Carlos Marcello in his fight for residence in the USA -- and also it is clear that Carlos Marcello gave Guy Banister tons of mafia money to support his Radical Right causes -- I maintain that Marcello left the political stuff to Guy Banister.

17.  So, none of this has CIA influence, that I can see.  DAP was outside the loop.  David Morales was an off-the-reservation Mole.  Howard Hunt confessed to his son that he was "on the sidelines" of the JFK assassination.

18.  THEREFORE -- this was a Radical Right plot.

18.1.   BTW, I invite you to read the recent book by Dr. Jeffrey Caufield entitled, General Walker and the Murder of President Kennedy: the Extensive New Evidence of a Radical Right Conspiracy (2015).

19.  The JFK Kill Team was entirely Civilian (with the occasional rogue), and wanted to blame the Communists for the JFK murder.

20.  The JFK Cover-up Team was entirely US Government, and wanted to remove the Radical Right stain by using the Lone Nut theory.

21.  THEREFORE, the JFK Cover-up Team was different and even opposed to the JFK Kill Team.

22.  As for David Lifton's pre-autopsy autopsy theory -- it is best explained, IMHO, as the result of a late decision to go with a Lone Nut theory, made around 4pm EST in Washington DC, and quickly given the authority of LBJ.   This explains the botched nature of the pre-autopsy autopsy.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Not to go off topic and only to reply to your detailed post (thank you), I can't see LHO making an attempt on Walker's life if he's trying to prove himself to the CIA.  If DAP was handling him, including all of Oswald's other reasons that could make him a low-level agent (Atsugi radar operator, learning Russian, fake defector, etc.), I can't see him diverting his allegiance from his CIA handlers to an oil geologist who was only a contract agent for the CIA at best, to commit an extreme event.  I might believe that Oswald did that because he was goaded by GDM with DAP's approval, but there's conflicting evidence as to the ballistics and that others were seen or involved instead of Oswald.

I'm familiar with the Lopez Report and Bill Simpich's ebook and paper (I had the pleasure of speaking with him at Lancer too).  Don't know about Caufield's book but thank you for mentioning it.

Yes, brilliance doesn't mean morally or mentally sound (e.g. Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini, etc. etc.).

In any event, I've learned something new in this thread started by Paul Brancato, and that is, that the conspiracy all along was not to implicate a lone assassin who was a Communist sympathizer, but to have it blamed on the Soviets, but that didn't sell or couldn't be sold, so Plan B went into effect, and that meant heading off the official autopsy at the pass, so to speak.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Gerry Simone

[Ron Ecker]

46 minutes ago, Gerry Simone said:

I've learned something new in this thread started by Paul Brancato, and that is, that the conspiracy all along was not to implicate a lone assassin who was a Communist sympathizer, but to have it blamed on the Soviets, but that didn't sell or couldn't be sold, so Plan B went into effect, and that meant heading off the official autopsy at the pass, so to speak.

When did the planned blame go from Castro to the Soviets? Who decided they would rather invade Russia than Cuba? I missed that part.

 

[Paul Trejo]

54 minutes ago, Ron Ecker said:

When did the planned blame go from Castro to the Soviets? Who decided they would rather invade Russia than Cuba? I missed that part.

Ron,

In the 1960's, Communism was seen as a monolithic cancer.   The domino-theory of Communism was cited even by JFK.

So, there was no major difference between Castro and the Soviets -- because Castro was seen as a puppet of the Soviets.   The big difference was that Castro's Cuba was only 90 miles away from Miami.   Cuba would be hit first, in any encounter.

US Secretary of State Dean Rusk testified for the WC that the Communist plot angle was his first priority -- even while he was still in the air on the way back from his Far East airplane journey.  He contacted intelligence sources from all over the world.

By the time he settled back in Washington DC on 11/23/1963, Dean Rusk was firmly convinced that the Communists-did-it angle was a Big Lie.  When he heard a rumor that Dallas was going to include a "Communist plot" allegation in their indictment of Lee Harvey Oswald, he called Texas Attorney General Waggoner Carr immediately for hard evidence of this Dallas allegation.  

Carr called Henry Wade immediately.  Wade admitted immediately that there was no actual evidence -- it was all a rumor.  Wade put pressure on DPD Chief Jesse Curry to back off that rumor immediately.   Then Henry Wade then went to the DPD station to speak directly with the press -- something he had never done before -- but this was urgent.  The Lone Nut theory had become US State Dogma at this point.

This is why I say -- the JFK Cover-up Team was radically different and separate from the JFK Kill Team.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited April 10, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Ron Ecker]

Paul,

I'm well aware of the Communist menace back then. My uncle next door built a bomb shelter. So I'm less interested in what Dean Rusk and other domino players thought than what the plan was. And I don't think the Mafia and the anti-Castro Cubans, to the extent that those elements were involved, were interested in a nuclear tit for tat with Russia. They were interested in getting Cuba back, and were probably even willing to do the shooting to get it. So Cuba was meant to be the immediate side benefit of the assassination. The big prize was Vietnam. IMO.

 

 

[Micah Mileto]

On 4/5/2017 at 4:51 PM, David Von Pein said:

Absolute nonsense, Paul. You can't prove what you just said if your life depended on it --- and you know it!

The FACT remains --- there isn't a single photo or X-ray (including the ORIGINALS, which were all seen by the HSCA) that shows ANY missing bone or scalp in the "occipital" region of President Kennedy's cranium. Not one. And the HSCA confirmed that FACT.

 

How could anyone deny the possibility that the head X-rays could show the occipital EOP wound? Or ignore the odd dark spots on the BOH photos (not that it needs to be obviously visible in the BOH photos-- the EOP scalp wound could always be hiding under a bit of hair).

Edited April 10, 2017 by Micah Mileto

[Ron Ecker]

Ah yes, the autopsy photos and X-rays. Let's see, they assassinated the president, they conducted a sham military-controlled autopsy as part of the cover-up, but they were careful not to tamper with any of the autopsy materials, such as altering or faking a photo or two, because THAT WOULD BE WRONG.

 

 

 

[Ray Mitcham]

2 hours ago, Ron Ecker said:

Ah yes, the autopsy photos and X-rays. Let's see, they assassinated the president, they conducted a sham military-controlled autopsy as part of the cover-up, but they were careful not to tamper with any of the autopsy materials, such as altering or faking a photo or two, because THAT WOULD BE WRONG.

 

 

 

[Paul Trejo]

On ‎4‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 2:01 AM, Cliff Varnell said:

The capture of the patsy.

If Oswald had been killed within an hour of JFK's demise there would have been no need for subterfuge.

Cliff,

I still see no reason to change from a Commie-did-it CT to a Lone Nut theory just because Oswald outdrew JD Tippit.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited April 10, 2017 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Michael Clark]

12 hours ago, Ron Ecker said:

....quoting error...

 

13 hours ago, Gerry Simone said:

...nothing to see here

Edited April 10, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Michael Clark]

56 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Cliff,

I still see no reason to change from a Commie-did-it CT to a Lone Nut theory just because Oswald outdrew HAD Tippit.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Cliff,

I still see no reason to change from a Commie-did-it CT to a Lone Nut theory just because Oswald outdrew Tippit.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

-----------------------------

I edited Paul's sentence because I think he had a mistake in there. My apologies if I am incorrect.

Tippit, for some reason, got in the way. Either he was trying cover himself, cover someone else, trying to be a hero, or trying to extricate himself from the plot that he thought was closing in on him. He probably would have been fine if he didn't wander off-base.

Cheers,

Michael