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Paul Brancato

Does Lifton's Best Evidence indicate that the coverup and the crime were committed by the same people?

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4 hours ago, Ron Ecker said:

Heh heh heh. He said "reasonable" and "sensible" about the SBT.

 

Mind numbing discussion, isn't it?

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As per PT and his bumping of the whole dilemma Marina was in at the time, I really do not understand why you keep on bringing this up.  It has been around as long as the Warren Report.  Which means its over a half century old. And for the life of me, I don't know why you keep on recycling it.

If that existed in a vacuum, that would be one thing.  It does not.  Not even close.  The suspicions about the Paines are not engendered only by proximity.  It is created by who they are, where they come from, their sources of income, and the things they did and said after Kennedy's murder.  And relating to the last, how these actions continued for weeks and then months on end.  And if you extend it out to character assassination, it went on for decades.

Another aspect which concerns objective observers is how they were used by the Warren Commission, and then ignored by both the HSCA and the ARRB.  In fact, in the latter case, a letter writing campaign began to try and get them interviewed by the ARRB.  Unfortunately it did not succeed.  And Jeremy Gunn had left by then.

The fact remains, no books until way past the new millennium had any sustained focus at all on the Paines.  Which is really kind of shocking when you look at it.

 

 

Edited by James DiEugenio

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1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

As for CV and his silliness about the evidence I advanced being "idle speculation",  look when you have testimony that directly relates to exhibits that witnesses saw, then sorry Cliffie, that is not "idle speculation".

Excuse me?

Go back and read the post -- I was responding to Sandy's hypothetical.

You haven't posted any actual evidence at all.

Why are you so reticent about making an actual argument?

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

 That constitutes evidence from which one can create an investigatory hypothesis.

You continue to refer to non-specific "declassified files" and "testimony that directly relates to exhibits that witnesses saw" -- wtf are you talking about?

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

This is the way that prosecutors build cases.  Once they reach a tipping point, then this constitutes what they call proof of the crime and the perpetrators. This usually comes about when they can explain the crime in no other way.

Your quote above with Joe Pesci from Stone's movie is pretty silly.  For the simple reason that scenarists are allowed a modicum of dramatic license.  To my knowledge and study, Ferrie never actually said what Pesci said about a riddle being wrapped in an enigma.

That was not the money quote.

"Who killed Kennedy...The shooters don't even know -- don't you get it?"

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

And if you read what I wrote in regards to Mr. Epstein and Mr. Carpenter over at Kennedysandking.com, you would have seen the actual evidence JG had on him at the time.  Which makes it an error by him not to have indicted him.  Especially in light of what happened to Ferrie shortly after.

Evidence of what?  Ferrie was a shooter?  Master-planner?

Provide a quote or a link at least.

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20 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

This below is bumped for the simple reason that Cliffie likes to make believe  that anything that directly counters his bloated polemics, does not exist. It is not in any way idle speculation. Not when you are doing polygraphs, and the people end up lying about not seeing the weapons used in Dealey Plaza. And there are also pictures of the scene and diagrams of the sewer system underneath. I mean what the heck else do you want?

Ah, I just noticed this post.

So anti-Castro Cubans lied about seeing weapons used in Dealey Plaza and had pictures of the scene and diagrams of the sewer system.

Makes them Persons of Interest, but it's a stretch to claim they were shooters or master planners.

In the Operation Northwoods playbook "the objective is to provide irrevocable proof that...the fault lies with the Communists."

Had Oswald been gunned down within an hour of Kennedy further patsies would have to turn up to account for the multiple shots.  Were these Cubans set up as back up patsies?

20 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

First, Garrison did a pretty thorough investigation into Dealey Plaza.  Much better I think than the HSCA, and of course rocket miles above the WC.  If you look at Bill Davy's book, on the bottom of page 287, you will see that he had centered on the Cuban exiles as being part of the hit team in Dealey Plaza.  To the point of asking them during polygraphs if they had seen any of the weapons used during the assassination, prior to the assassination.

Were they asked if they'd taken an active part in the assassination?

20 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Also, Bernardo De Torres, who the HSCA discovered had pictures of the assassination in a safe deposit box, was an early infiltrator into his inquiry, and was very likely involved in the death of Eladio Del Valle.

To sketch one last detail, Fruge found out that Santana and Arcacha Smith were the two guys with Rose Cheramie talking about killing JFK on the way to Dallas.  And that Smith had maps of the sewer system under Dealey Plaza in his apartment in Dallas.

Didn't Arcacha Smith have an alibi?

20 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

 I could go on with this even further.  And you can see more details that I have in my critique of Epstein at Kennedysandking.  But the point is, Garrison did do an investigation into how the actual mechanics of the murder of JFK worked. To any objective person, he went further than any other inquiry and came up with some real evidence and suspects.

I stand corrected.

Too bad none of this was brought out in the Shaw trial, but polygraphs aren't admissible and sewer diagrams aren't enough to hang a guy.

20 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

To my knowledge and from what I have seen in his extant files, there was no corresponding inquiry into the death of Oswald.  Probably because that was out of his jurisdiction and located in Dallas.  As anyone can see from his attempt to get Sergio Arcacha Smith back, or even question him, the Dallas Police were quite hostile.

 

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2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

 To my knowledge and study, Ferrie never actually said what Pesci said about a riddle being wrapped in an enigma.

'mon the Winston Churchill... ;)

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From the Spartacus page on Eladio Del Valle:

<quote on, emphasis added>

(2) Fabian Escalante, Cuban Officials and JFK Historians Conference (7th December, 1995)

Eladio Del Valle worked for two police services - military intelligence and the traditional police. He was in charge of narcotics. He was also a legislature in the government - a representative. He was from a little town from the south of Havana. He was a captain in the merchant marines. In 1958 he was doing business dealings with Santos Trafficante in a little coastal town south of Havana. There he brought in contraband whose destination was Santos Trafficante.

<quote off>

The guy was a dope smuggler, which, according to my bloated polemics, is what all of Kennedy's killers from top to bottom had in common.

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5 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

As per PT and his bumping of the whole dilemma Marina was in at the time, I really do not understand why you keep on bringing this up.  It has been around as long as the Warren Report.  Which means its over a half century old. And for the life of me, I don't know why you keep on recycling it.

If that existed in a vacuum, that would be one thing.  It does not.  Not even close.  The suspicions about the Paines are not engendered only by proximity.  It is created by who they are, where they come from, their sources of income, and the things they did and said after Kennedy's murder.  And relating to the last, how these actions continued for weeks and then months on end.  And if you extend it out to character assassination, it went on for decades.

Another aspect which concerns objective observers is how they were used by the Warren Commission, and then ignored by both the HSCA and the ARRB.  In fact, in the latter case, a letter writing campaign began to try and get them interviewed by the ARRB.  Unfortunately it did not succeed.  And Jeremy Gunn had left by then.

The fact remains, no books until way past the new millennium had any sustained focus at all on the Paines.  Which is really kind of shocking when you look at it.

Classic evasion of a simple 'yes or no' question.

During the final week of September,1963, was Marina Oswald eight months pregnant, without health insurance, without money, without having seen a doctor yet, and with Lee Harvey Oswald out of work?

Yes or no?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo

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DUPLICATE

Edited by Paul Trejo

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4 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

...In the Operation Northwoods playbook "the objective is to provide irrevocable proof that...the fault lies with the Communists."

Had Oswald been gunned down within an hour of Kennedy further patsies would have to turn up to account for the multiple shots.  Were these Cubans set up as back up patsies?

Cliff,

IMHO, we are on more solid ground with the Operation Northwoods Playbook CT than any other CT here.

Blaming the Commies was Job One -- and I realize that this contradicts David Lifton.  This is the very debate of this thread, IMHO.

As for further suspects -- if Oswald had been killed in the street as planned, they were always unnecessary because the Dallas police controlled all evidence, crime scene, witnesses, suspects and their families.  Yet further suspects were not needed.

The main purpose was to blame the Communists -- but since the Communists really didn't do it (Ed Epstein and James Hosty to the contrary) -- the plan was simply to let a general Red Scare flow over the USA, so that all Communists of every random party -- Trotsky, Marx, Lenin or Mao -- would be harrassed for years in another McCarthyist witch hunt.  That would have been GOOD for the "Operations Northwood Playbook."

In the meantime, Cuba would have been toasted and roasted, with a US-friendly dictator in charge, as was standard for Latin America in 1963. 

IMHO, David Lifton downplays the grassroots level of Anticommunism in 1963 in the USA, and especially in Dallas, when calculating the JFK Plotters.  They were more local -- and more myopic -- than David proposes in his many posts in this outstanding thread.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo

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On 4/13/2017 at 11:34 AM, David Lifton said:

...If I'm correct, then, the assassination was planned, from the outset, to involve the murder of two people--the President to be killed, and the fall-guy to be blamed. (And that means that Oswald's presence at the TSBD was not "coincidence" but part of the original design of the crime)...

 DSL

4/13/2017 9:20 a.m. PDT (Edited and tweaked, 5:35 p.m. PDT)

Los Angeles, California

David,

According to the recent CT advanced by Jeff Caufield, this part of your CT is absolutely correct -- that is -- the JFK assassination was planned from the start to kill both JFK and Lee Harvey Oswald.

However -- contrary to your theory -- the person who actually planned this double-murder was Dallas resident and former US General, Edwin Walker.  

JFK and RFK had General Walker committed to an insane asylum only one year before the JFK assassination -- on October 1, 1962 -- and although the ACLU and Dr. Thomas Szasz got Walker released after only 3 days, something else very bizarre happened -- Lee Harvey Oswald tried to kill General Walker at his Dallas home on April 10, 1963.

General Walker claimed that he found out that Lee Harvey Oswald was his shooter "within days."  Here's what General Walker wrote to Senator Frank Church in 1979:

http://www.pet880.com/images/19750623_EAW_to_Frank_Church.pdf

From Easter weekend of 1963 forward, General Walker always believed that RFK had sent Lee Harvey Oswald to murder him.  So -- being an expert in military strategy -- General Walker planned a sweet double-revenge.   This was announced to the German press only 18 hours after the JFK murder.  Here is the article (which was printed the following Friday, since this was a weekly newspaper):

http://www.pet880.com/images/19631129_Deutsche_NZ.jpg

There are many other items like this in Walker's personal papers stored at UT Austin and around the USA, as Dr. Caufield has shown.

In this CT, then, the murder of JFK and LHO were planned together -- but not a pre-autopsy autopsy.  The murder was not body-centric, but was Commie-centric -- as well as revenge-centric.   General Walker and the Dallas Police comprise Occam's Razor as a CT.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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On ‎4‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 6:20 PM, David Lifton said:

Paul Trejo:

You are engaged in a whole sequence of unwarranted political theorizing, and peddling confusion by advancing an absurd hypothesis.

First of all, you are ignoring the most obvious and pertinent fact: that the President's  body was--predictably--the   most important evidence in the case. That meant that anyone who was planning the president's murder (and also planning, as part of the crime, the frame-up of Oswald) had to know full well that the body of the  deceased represented a problem that would have to be dealt with.  And that leads to the next point.

...Please don't try to hide behind your unjustified "construct" that there's some kind of "low IQ kill team" that can be separated from the architects of this crime. That's the legerdemain in which you're engaged, and there's no justification for it.  You're positing this bizarre and illogical plot structure and then, starting with that, attempting to build a theory in which high level government officials engaged in implementing a sophisticated deception --after the fact--in  order to address the problem that your so-called "kill team" (an artifice of your own mind) "forgot" to address when they planned (and then executed) this shooting, which --you apparently believe--also involved the framing of Oswald.

And what did they apparently forget to address? -- "the problem of the body."

In other words, your so called "kill team" was so dumb that they "forgot about the body"; but, not to worry, other higher-ups, and in the name of "national security," were engaged in "clean-up" afterwards, and for "benign" reasons, of course.

All of this is not just implausible; I think it constitutes an absurd approach to analyzing this crime.

...What happened to the "trip planning" function, that brought Kennedy to Texas, and to Dallas, in the first place?  And what happened to the maneuvering of Oswald--one of only about 15 returned defectors from the the USSR or Soviet Bloc countries--so that he would end up located on the president's parade route?

Surely you realize that Oswald could not have been framed for this shooting unless he was at the scene of the crime at the time of the crime.  Surely you do realize that if he had had a toothache, and was in a dentist's chair somewhere across town, he could not have been framed.

So he had to be "on-site" at the time the motorcade passed his general location.

So:  Do you think all of that happened by chance?  By coincidence?  That this low-IQ Kill Team simply showed up with their guns, and killed Kennedy,  (and then hung out in the parking lot, checking cars, according to another of your previous posts); and then certain political  higher-ups, who heard about the shooting (and, noticing the incompetence of this low IQ kill team, and focusing on the forensic problem posed by their lack of foresight [in having made no plans to falsify the autopsy] ), then decided to do a "benign intervention" to make their plot work?

Is that your idea of how all this went down?

 ...Lots of luck, Paul Trejo.  Is this your "plot"? Your low-IQ kill team? Followed by a benign coverup?  A murder where everything depended on coincidence, but  then "they" just happened to "forget" about the small problem known as "the body"?  But then certain unknown higher-ups, conducted a "benign intervention," in the name of "National Security"?

...Good luck, Paul, advancing your theory in which "sane people" intervened to save the stupidity of your so-called "kill team," a group  so incompetent that they planned to murder the president and frame Oswald, but were sufficiently ignorant and obtuse that they ignored the consequences of planning such a serious crime without taking into account the centrality of the President's body as the most important evidence in the case.

DSL

4/14/2017 4 p.m. PDT (edited at 11:40 p.m.)

Los Angeles, California

David,

(1)  You claim that I am "ignoring the most obvious and pertinent fact: that the President's body was -- predictably -- the most important evidence in the case."  

(2) But actually two items of evidence were more important, namely: (2.1) the alleged murder weapon and spent bullets on the sixth floor of the TSBD which could be traced by the Dallas Postmaster to Lee Harvey Oswald; and (2.2) the "Communist" ambush from Dealey Plaza.

(3) The JFK plot only seems to be body-centric when a Lone Shooter Plot is presumed.  But when we presume a Communist Plot, then there is no need for a body-centric CT.

(4) The killers were going to blame Lee Harvey Oswald -- but that does not mean that they had to blame Lee Harvey Oswald ALONE.  Actually, if they could trace Lee Harvey Oswald to the Communists (as in the Castro-loving FPCC in New Orleans, and a meeting with Kostikov in Mexico City), then the JFK murder could be cast as a Communist Plot from start to finish -- with accomplices still at large.

(5) As for your charge of a "low IQ kill team" in my CT, I maintain that a person can be very deprived of education, and yet have a high IQ.  Lee Harvey Oswald was a case in point.  There were probably many citizens of Dallas who were very smart, but had no access to University education because of poverty.  Also, plenty of low-IQ folks are as shrewd as tigers, and also very skilled with rifles. 

(6) I repeat -- my CT is not body-centric, but Oswald-centric and Commie-ambush-centric. It is not "absurd" but has real energy.

(7) So, I deny that my "dumb" kill-team forgot the body.  It was really to their advantage for JFK's body to advertise multiple shooters -- because that is how Communists operate.

(8) As for the your CT of a pre-autopsy autopsy, which I ACCEPT with open arms, I also claim that it was UNPLANNED, and hastily demanded by Washington DC only after 4pm EST.  It was demanded as a matter of National Security, and so a large number of loyal US Military would cooperate with it.

(9) By contrast, David, in your CT, a large number of US Military men would have to be disloyal, ready for treason, and would cooperate in a long-term plot to murder JFK.  That is what makes least sense to me.  Such a plot could never last (except in a Hollywood movie like "Seven Days in May").

(10) The trip planning function that brought JFK to Dallas was as innocent as pie.  Every President visits cities in the USA -- that is what the Secret Service and their PRS is for.  Every potential assassin is always on the alert for Presidential trips.  It's just common sense.

(11) Another difference between my CT and yours, David, is that in my CT, if Oswald had been unavailable, the JFK murder would have proceeded anyway -- as there were many other Patsies to choose from. (Gerry Patrick Hemming and Loran Hall were  two more.)   By contrast, in your CT, if Oswald had been unavailable, the JFK assassination would have been canceled.

(12) As for the placement of the Patsy -- this was left to the "Friends of Walker" group in Dallas.  One must appreciate the 1963 Anticommunist atmostphere in Dallas.

(13) The ambush of JFK did not happen by chance.  It was carefully planned by the Dallas Minutemen, of whom several members were also Dallas Police.  Roscoe White was one of them.  At Minutemen shooting camps, the steps were rehearsed for months.  The JFK murder was planned for months -- the pre-autopsy autopsy was not.

(14) After killing JFK in their Dallas Police uniforms, the shooters simply blended in with the scenery.  This was 1963 in Dallas -- and Dallas Police would never be suspected of anything.  This was part of the genius of General Walker -- a true military strategist.

(15) Once again -- the intent was to blame Lee Harvey Oswald -- BUT NOT HIM ALONE.  And for that reason, there was no need to worry about the JFK autopsy.

(16) It was only when a counter-plot, led by J. Edgar Hoover, realized that the Radical Right in Dallas had killed JFK, that the infamous Lone Nut scneario was conceived.

(17) This was by 4pm EST, according to Professor David Wrone.

(18) At this time LBJ was apprised, and he agreed, and then the Military brass at Bethesda was instructed to perform their pre-autopsy autopsy, as a matter of National Security.

(19) So, yes, David, this is my CT.  A Low-IQ firing squad, led by a former Army General, Edwin Walker, who in reality wanted his name to become joined with the JFK assassination  and did everything he could to leave clues.

(20) I maintain that my CT explains more street-level phenomena than yours does -- and also explains the behavior of the Military brass better than yours does.

(21) Of course, I could be mistaken.  I am open to further data.  I eagerly await your forthcoming new book, so that I can finally read the details of your new CT.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
11, 16

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I want to re-emphasize that David Lifton's CT of a Planned pre-autopsy autopsy requires a massive plot of US Military brass, which I find untenable.

It's not only that I find it morally shocking -- it's that I find it untenable based on my perception of US history and citizens.  One could not keep a massive secret involving so large a number of people in the USA for a half-century.

It is far more reasonable to maintain that the US Military brass at Bethesda agreed to a last-minute medical emergency in the interest of National Security.  Thus the pre-autopsy autopsy was not pre-planned, but was a late notice.  

A standard, National Security secret could easily be kept for a half-century.

This not only explains the botched result of the pre-autopsy autopsy, but also accounts for the USA national personality in 1963.

Professor David Wrone says that Hoover conceived the Lone Nut theory around 4pm EST.   So there was enough time -- from 4pm to 6pm EST, for this emergency plan of a "Lone Nut" outcome -- to be demanded by the White House.   

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo

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9 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Does anybody really think that the above slits were caused by a bullet? The position of the slots doesn't even match.


I believe the holes were cause by a projectile.

In the hole on our right, there are frayed threads extending up into the neckband part of the shirt. These make the hole look like a long slit, and also makes it look like the two holes don't line up vertically.

If you ignore the all the frayed threads and find the actual holes, you will see that they do line up.

 

Shirt_zpsucuuqedg.jpeg

 

 

 

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A few of you are so full of your own opinions. I say write a book already and try to resist using this forum and this thread as your personal fiefdom. That means you Paul Trejo, and also you, Cliff Varnell. You're smart guys, and you sure have some extra time on your hands. Instead, you presume to lecture serious researchers who have spent their lives examining the details, interviewing witnesses, and publishing their findings. Neither of you seem capable of arguing from any position other than the calcified ones in which you reside. Your minds are closed and rigid. 

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1 hour ago, Paul Brancato said:

A few of you are so full of your own opinions. I say write a book already and try to resist using this forum and this thread as your personal fiefdom. That means you Paul Trejo, and also you, Cliff Varnell. You're smart guys, and you sure have some extra time on your hands. Instead, you presume to lecture serious researchers who have spent their lives examining the details, interviewing witnesses, and publishing their findings. Neither of you seem capable of arguing from any position other than the calcified ones in which you reside. Your minds are closed and rigid. 

I said "I stand corrected" on the Garrison investigation.

Have you ever made such an admission?

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