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Paul Brancato

Does Lifton's Best Evidence indicate that the coverup and the crime were committed by the same people?

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3 hours ago, James R Gordon said:

Sandy,

What kind of Scalpels are you accustomed to? "hacked away at the tie."

James.


I used to repair fluoroscopy, CT, and MRI machines for a doctor friend of mine who owns a medical imaging and surgical center in Provo. I sometimes needed to cut something like insulation or tape and tried using his disposable scalpels. None of them worked very well for my needs and all required multiple strokes to get the job done.

But you don't need to take my word for how poorly they worked on the tie. Just look closely at the cut in the tie and you'll see that it has a ragged edge that appears to have been made by repetitive strokes of something sharp... presumably a scalpel, as stated by Carrico.

 

(Use Ctrl + multiple times to zoom in.)

024f974c6d4c428bbe038cfd3afc23b1.jpg

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12 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

I said "I stand corrected" on the Garrison investigation.

Have you ever made such an admission?

I have no idea, and I missed your statement. What was it in reference to?

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19 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

I have no idea, and I missed your statement. What was it in reference to?

The scope of the Garrison investigation beyond Clay Shaw and the plot to kill Oswald.

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On 4/19/2017 at 8:36 PM, Chris Newton said:

David,

The Ruth Paine story about how and why she acquired the original "Kostikov" letter and made a copy baffles the mind. It simply does not add up.

Chris:

No time for any detailed postings, but i don't understand why RP's story doesn't add up or boggles the mind.

First of all, Lee was "playing" her. So he writes this deliberately provocative letter,  deliberately leaves it out where she can see it, she glimpes the opening line or two, her curiosity is aroused, and she takes the bait.

The result: there are three documents created:

1. The LHO original handwritten draft

2. The copy that Ruth Paine made

3. The typed item that LHO wrote, on RP's typewriter, and which was mailed to the SOviet Embassy.

Ruth Paine ended up with her own handwritten copy of LHO's copy (and then she filched his "original"--correct?)

So: When the assassination occurred, and he stood accused, she was upset--if not horrified--at what she finds herself having been dragged into.  So then she  turns over both  items to the FBI.   She wanted nothing further to do with the whole situation.

FWIW, and especially from my 1995 (approx) conversation with Arthur Young, Ruth (without question) believed LHO's guilt; but even more important, it deeply affected her psyche and her belief about "the way things work" that such an insignificant twerp and non-entity as Oswald (again, this was her perception) could have murdered a president she much admired. From talking with Arthur Young and with Michael Paine, and with the Paine relative who I got to know pretty well (and who assisted me, and wanted to get to the bottom of all of this), I believe I can state, with considerable confidence, that Ruth Paine never outgrew her almost sophomoric view of Oswald. Why that w                                          the case I do not know, but she could never break through and get beyond that.

And BTW, she's a very intelligent woman.   Her IQ --I later learned--was up around 145. In the gifted range.

In the Feb/March 1963 period, when it became clear that DeM would be leaving for Haiti, it was almost as if there was a "transfer of custody" of Marina and LHO over to Ruth Paine, and I always found that hard to accept as coincidence.  But I can easily see that being "arranged" if Dulles asked his former mistress if she new anyone in Dallas who might assist in the "resettling" of a returned defector, and so that's how Ruth Paine was "selected" for that task.  So that's what I always believed may have occurred, and nothing more sinister.  Oswald's handler was definitely not Ruth Paine, but there was a handler, I am certain of that.

Different subject; another tie.

DSL

4/25/2017 - 10:35 a.m. PDT

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David:

Can I please offer some advice?  

I don't know why you are spending all this time on this forum right now.  Your book has been announced to be released more than once.  

It is now 37 years past the release of your last book.

Don't you think your time would be better spent completing your book and getting it to the publisher?  I mean a good release date would be this October timed with the final declassification of the ARRB files.

I mean you can always lurk here if there is any info you want to peer into.

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8 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Nurse Bowron said that she saw a bullet hole in the throat as she was helping to get the President out of the limo.

Nurse Hinchcliffe said she saw a bullet hole in the President's throat.


Ray,

Do you have sources for the above statements?

(I assume you meant to say that Nurse Hinchcliffe said she saw a bullet hole in the President's throat before his shirt collar was opened. Given that your point seems to be that the hole was above the shirtline.)

Thanks.

 

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10 hours ago, David Lifton said:

...And (Ruth Paine) BTW, she's a very intelligent woman.   Her IQ -- I later learned--was up around 145. In the gifted range.

In the Feb/March 1963 period, when it became clear that DeM would be leaving for Haiti, it was almost as if there was a "transfer of custody" of Marina and LHO over to Ruth Paine, and I always found that hard to accept as coincidence.  But I can easily see that being "arranged" if Dulles asked his former mistress if she new anyone in Dallas who might assist in the "resettling" of a returned defector, and so that's how Ruth Paine was "selected" for that task.  So that's what I always believed may have occurred, and nothing more sinister.  Oswald's handler was definitely not Ruth Paine, but there was a handler, I am certain of that...

DSL

4/25/2017 - 10:35 a.m. PDT

David,

I think James DiEugenio is just trying to evade my question about Ruth Paine.  I believe I speak for most of us here when I say that we are honored that you chose to join this grassroots discussion, and that we are all going to buy your new book when it comes out -- and that we will discuss it for months on this FORUM after it is finally published.

As for your post above:

I agree with you that Ruth Paine is very intelligent, even today.  When I spoke with her at the end of 2015, she explained why she and Michael told the WC that they doubted that Oswald acted alone.  They both thought that they knew who killed JFK, namely, the same ones who had published the WANTED FOR TREASON: JFK handbills, and the "Welcome Mister Kennedy, to Dallas" DMN Ad.

They respected the FBI, so they were puzzled why the FBI were pushing so hard for the LN theory.

Over the decades Ruth has increasingly resigned to a half-century of LN inertia, but I encouraged her to read your book, Best Evidence (1981) as well as related ARRB books by Doug Horne (2009).  Ruth said she was open to it.

As for the alleged hand-off from George DM to Ruth in February 1963, that is Probe Magazine mythology.  George DM stayed around till mid-April, in time to see the Walker shooting.

Ruth never knew George.  She emphasized that.  Also, Ruth had no interest in Lee Oswald -- her sole interest from start to finish, was in Marina Oswald.

When Ruth drove Marina Oswald to her home in Irving on September 23, 1963, Marina was eight months pregnant, had no health insurance, no money, and had not seen a doctor in her entire pregnancy -- plus Lee Oswald was out of a job -- AGAIN.

Marina Oswald was Ruth's concern -- and Lee Oswald to Ruth was a deadbeat dad and a leech.  She saw Lee first hand for a long time -- she knew what she was talking about.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
format

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16 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:


Ray,

Do you have sources for the above statements?

(I assume you meant to say that Nurse Hinchcliffe said she saw a bullet hole in the President's throat before his shirt collar was opened. Given that your point seems to be that the hole was above the shirtline.)

Thanks.

 

Sandy, I am not finding Hinchliffe's (I am seeing it spelled in several different ways) testimony in any of the regular places. I did find this.

http://www.whokilledjfk.net/parkland_nurses.htm

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Nurse Bowron was also questioned during the HSCA hearings:

BOWRON. There was a gaping wound in the back of his head.

Q. So, in this massive hole, was there a flap of scalp there, or was scalp actually gone?

BOWRON. It was gone. Gone. There was nothing there. Just a big gaping hole.

Q. We're talking about scalp first, and then bone, right?

BOWRON. Yeah. There might have been little clumps of scalp, but most of the bone over the hole, there was no bone there.

Bowron was among the nurses who, after JFK’s death, washed the body and prepared it for the casket. It was at that time she got her best view of the body. In a letter to researcher Harrison Livingstone January 24, 1993, Bowron described what happened:

“When the president expired everyone left the room apart from Miss 

Hinchcliffe, a male orderly and myself. We tidied the room and changed 

the linen on the gurney and washed the body as best we could. Miss 

Hinchcliffe and the orderly left the room, but I was told to remain with the body until the casket arrived. I was told that I had to stay because I had been one of the people who had taken the body from the car. I remained in the room while the widow paid her respects. After she had left I was asked, by a man I assumed was Secret Service, to collect all pieces of skull and brain I could find and place them in a plastic bag which he gave me. This I did and returned the bag to him

(there were only a few fragments of bone that had stuck to the dressings and towels that we had used to pack the hole in the back of the head). I remained in the room until the people from the funeral home arrived. After we had placed the body in the casket and it had been closed I was allowed to leave. During the time I was with the body only the widow and the priest came into the room, any dealings I had with the Secret Service were done in the doorway; no one else entered the room and no photographs were taken.

Apart from 2-3 mins, when I left the trauma room to collect blood from 

the Blood Bank, I was with the body from the car until it was placed in 

the casket. Being new to the establishment, I was assigned to Minor Medicine and Surgery, which was across the hall from the Triage desk and the major sections of the Emergency room. It being very quiet, there were only two or three patients waiting for the results of tests, I was talking with the Triage nurse when the call went up for gurneys. I grabbed a gurney in the hall and together with an orderly ran to the entrance. I saw that the person in the back of the car was injured so I climbed in to render what assistance I could until such time as we could move him to a trolley, then to the trauma room (others were assisting the Governor in the front seat). I saw that there was a massive amount of blood on the back seat and in order to find the cause I lifted his head and my fingers went into a large wound in the back of his head; I turned his head and seeing the size of the wound realized that I could not stop the bleeding. I turned his head back and saw an entry wound in the front of the throat, I could feel no pulse at the jugular and having seen the extent of the injury to the back of the head I assumed that he was dead. (not my job, only a Doctor can certify death) When we got the President to the Trauma room, word had reached the Trauma team and they were ready with IVs etc. I worked with the team, assisting where needed for about 10 mins (time is difficult to judge in those circumstances), when I was told to go to the Blood Bank. I was away 2-3 mins and on my return I continued to assist where needed until the President was declared dead.

That OK, Sandy?

Edited by Ray Mitcham

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Just to give an illustration of Ruth Paine's angst about Lee Oswald -- Ruth Paine said that when Lee Harvey Oswald was under arrest in Dallas on 11/23/1963, he called her up and demanded -- calmly and arrogantly, as if she was his underling -- that she contact John Abt in New York City immediately, and get back to him after she contacted Abt.

Ruth Paine was amazed by this attitude -- Oswald seemed oblivious to how much trouble he was in.   Perhaps he was just in denial.  Ruth Paine did try to contact John Abt -- because of her friendship with Marina Oswald.  She repeatedly got the message that John Abt was out of town, without a phone. 

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
typos

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Paul, I am not avoiding your question at all.

But unless you missed it, my last point about Ruth's letter to Marina asking her to come live with the Paines, after a 3 weeks acquaintance, neutralizes your point.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Michael Clark said:
3 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:


Ray,

Do you have sources for the above statements?

(I assume you meant to say that Nurse Hinchcliffe said she saw a bullet hole in the President's throat before his shirt collar was opened. Given that your point seems to be that the hole was above the shirtline.)

Thanks.

 

Sandy, I am not finding Hinchliffe's (I am seeing it spelled in several different ways) testimony in any of the regular places. I did find this.

http://www.whokilledjfk.net/parkland_nurses.htm


Thanks for the link, Michael.

I couldn't see either Nurse Henchliffe or Nurse Bell saying the wound was above the shirtline.

 

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3 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Nurse Bowron was also questioned during the HSCA hearings:

BOWRON. There was a gaping wound in the back of his head.

Q. So, in this massive hole, was there a flap of scalp there, or was scalp actually gone?

BOWRON. It was gone. Gone. There was nothing there. Just a big gaping hole.

Q. We're talking about scalp first, and then bone, right?

BOWRON. Yeah. There might have been little clumps of scalp, but most of the bone over the hole, there was no bone there.

Bowron was among the nurses who, after JFK’s death, washed the body and prepared it for the casket. It was at that time she got her best view of the body. In a letter to researcher Harrison Livingstone January 24, 1993, Bowron described what happened:

“When the president expired everyone left the room apart from Miss 

Hinchcliffe, a male orderly and myself. We tidied the room and changed 

the linen on the gurney and washed the body as best we could. Miss 

Hinchcliffe and the orderly left the room, but I was told to remain with the body until the casket arrived. I was told that I had to stay because I had been one of the people who had taken the body from the car. I remained in the room while the widow paid her respects. After she had left I was asked, by a man I assumed was Secret Service, to collect all pieces of skull and brain I could find and place them in a plastic bag which he gave me. This I did and returned the bag to him

(there were only a few fragments of bone that had stuck to the dressings and towels that we had used to pack the hole in the back of the head). I remained in the room until the people from the funeral home arrived. After we had placed the body in the casket and it had been closed I was allowed to leave. During the time I was with the body only the widow and the priest came into the room, any dealings I had with the Secret Service were done in the doorway; no one else entered the room and no photographs were taken.

Apart from 2-3 mins, when I left the trauma room to collect blood from 

the Blood Bank, I was with the body from the car until it was placed in 

the casket. Being new to the establishment, I was assigned to Minor Medicine and Surgery, which was across the hall from the Triage desk and the major sections of the Emergency room. It being very quiet, there were only two or three patients waiting for the results of tests, I was talking with the Triage nurse when the call went up for gurneys. I grabbed a gurney in the hall and together with an orderly ran to the entrance. I saw that the person in the back of the car was injured so I climbed in to render what assistance I could until such time as we could move him to a trolley, then to the trauma room (others were assisting the Governor in the front seat). I saw that there was a massive amount of blood on the back seat and in order to find the cause I lifted his head and my fingers went into a large wound in the back of his head; I turned his head and seeing the size of the wound realized that I could not stop the bleeding. I turned his head back and saw an entry wound in the front of the throat, I could feel no pulse at the jugular and having seen the extent of the injury to the back of the head I assumed that he was dead. (not my job, only a Doctor can certify death) When we got the President to the Trauma room, word had reached the Trauma team and they were ready with IVs etc. I worked with the team, assisting where needed for about 10 mins (time is difficult to judge in those circumstances), when I was told to go to the Blood Bank. I was away 2-3 mins and on my return I continued to assist where needed until the President was declared dead.

That OK, Sandy?

 

Thanks for that, Ray.

Unfortunately, Nurse Bowron's WC testimony directly contradicts what she told Livingstone:

Mr. SPECTER - And what, in a general way, did you observe with respect to President Kennedy's condition?
Miss BOWRON - He was very pale, he was lying across Mrs. Kennedy's knee and there seemed to be blood everywhere. When I went around to the other side of the car I saw the condition of his head.
Mr. SPECTER - You saw the condition of his what?
Miss BOWRON - The back of his head.
Mr. SPECTER - And what was that condition?
Miss BOWRON - Well, it was very bad---you know.
Mr. SPECTER - How many holes did you see?
Miss BOWRON - I just saw one large hole.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you see a small bullet hole beneath that one large hole?
Miss BOWRON - No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you notice any other wound on the President's body?
Miss BOWRON - No, sir.
   o

   o
   o
Mr. SPECTER - While the doctors were working on President Kennedy, did you ever have any opportunity to observe his neck?
Miss BOWRON - No; I didn't, until afterwards.
Mr. SPECTER - Until after what?
Miss BOWRON - Until after they had pronounced him dead and we cleaned up and removed the trach tube, and indeed we were really too shocked to really take much notice.
Mr. SPECTER - Did you ever see his neck prior to the time you removed the trach tube?
Miss BOWRON - No, sir.

 

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9 hours ago, David Lifton said:

Chris:

No time for any detailed postings, but i don't understand why RP's story doesn't add up or boggles the mind.

First of all, Lee was "playing" her. So he writes this deliberately provocative letter,  deliberately leaves it out where she can see it, she glimpes the opening line or two, her curiosity is aroused, and she takes the bait.

The result: there are three documents created:

1. The LHO original handwritten draft

2. The copy that Ruth Paine made

3. The typed item that LHO wrote, on RP's typewriter, and which was mailed to the SOviet Embassy.

Ruth Paine ended up with her own handwritten copy of LHO's copy (and then she filched his "original"--correct?)

So: When the assassination occurred, and he stood accused, she was upset--if not horrified--at what she finds herself having been dragged into.  So then she  turns over both  items to the FBI.   She wanted nothing further to do with the whole situation.

 

David,

I'm simply trying to work out the provenance of the "Kostin/Kostikov" letter.

Ruth Paine has delivered conflicting and contradictory statements under oath about said provenance and her story raises questions and that is why we are discussing it. The "devil is in the details".

The letter itself is of great importance.

https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Valeriy_Kostikov_and_Comrade_Kostin.html?

We both agree that Oswald had a handler but I'm not suggesting that "handler" was Ruth Paine. I believe we are in agreement that whomever was Oswald's "handler" instructed Oswald to write the "Kostin/Kostikov" letter.

I understand your feelings toward the Paines and I respect your judgement about their intentions. The scenario you suggest sounds entirely plausible and could be true. If the facts bear it out I will happily fall into line behind it.

Speaking entirely for myself though, I believe Oswald was setup and the Paines have wittingly or unwittingly supplied a great deal of the most incriminating evidence against him. I think that fact and the mountain of coincidences we must climb to absolve them of any responsibility warrants that extra scrutiny.

Quote

there are three documents created:

Actually 4 Documents: We have the HTLINGUAL report which was the Embassy intercept, as well.

Edited by Chris Newton
added ps

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3 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Paul, I am not avoiding your question at all.

But unless you missed it, my last point about Ruth's letter to Marina asking her to come live with the Paines, after a 3 weeks acquaintance, neutralizes your point.

James,

I'll gladly answer your several yes or no questions about Ruth Paine after you answer my single yes or no question which I present again -- for the sixth time:

When Ruth drove Marina Oswald into her home on September 23, 1963, was Marina was eight months pregnant, with no health insurance, no money, and had not seen a doctor in her entire pregnancy -- with Lee Oswald out of a job -- AGAIN?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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