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Thomas Graves

Poll: Was Nosenko A Defector, A Plant, Or Had He Been Kidnapped By The Evil, Evil CIA?

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Tommy - you need to start answering your own questions. When I read this series it looks like harassment to me. Chris may not agree. I don't know. But he is being very patient. 

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18 hours ago, Chris Newton said:

well... thinking and typing at the same time here...  If Angleton was a double agent...

... and he was involved in planning the assassination and recruiting co-conspirators, one could make the argument that the KGB was involved in the plot.

... it might explain why he wasn't able to "catch" his high echelon mole despite the hunt.

... a motive could emerge that would be consistent with current KGB objectives.. sewing discord and mistrust about US institutions and government among the general populace.

 

Chris - I posted something similar, though I would suggest that it may be that military establishments in both the Soviet Union and the US had more in common than we think. Yes, Angleton may have been the mole he claimed he was searching for. It fits. But what to make out of it? He was no Communist. His fascist credentials are strong. What I would ask is was the KGB Communist? If CIA and KGB collaborated what conclusions can one draw other than confluence of interests? If one reads the private letters between Kennedy and Khrushchev one sees that both were interested in ending the 'Cold War' (in quotes because I don't believe it was a real ideological battle), and both feared their own military establishments, and knew that their were vested interests in continuing the open hostilities. Both were removed from office. Dulles represented these kind of transnational interests as well. 

Edited by Paul Brancato

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38 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Chris - I posted something similar, though I would suggest that it may be that military establishments in both the Soviet Union and the US had more in common than we think. Yes, Angleton may have been the mole he claimed he was searching for. It fits. But what to make out of it? He was no Communist. His fascist credentials are strong. What I would ask is was the KGB Communist? If CIA and KGB collaborated what conclusions can one draw other than confluence of interests? If one reads the private letters between Kennedy and Khrushchev one sees that both were interested in ending the 'Cold War' (in quotes because I don't believe it was a real ideological battle), and both feared their own military establishments, and knew that their were vested interests in continuing the open hostilities. Both were removed from office. Dulles represented these kind of transnational interests as well. 

There are so many Russians wandering around this case. Are they still there? Are they, even now, blackmailing our government, politicians and Elite Guard with regard to the JFKA?

It becomes difficult to even detect some of these Russians since some use America names.

Bernard Barker's father was Russian

Ralph Paul was a Russian immigrant. 

This subject could use it's own thread.

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13 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

There are so many Russians wandering around this case. Are they still there? Are they, even now, blackmailing our government, politicians and Elite Guard with regard to the JFKA?

It becomes difficult to even detect some of these Russians since some use America names.

Bernard Barker's father was Russian

Ralph Paul was a Russian immigrant. 

This subject could use it's own thread.

Dear Michael,

And you could use your own website.

LOL

--  Tommy :sun

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On 5/6/2017 at 11:43 PM, Thomas Graves said:

Current poll results:

Nosenko was a false defector  --  2

Nosenko was kinda almost a false defector  --  1

 

Anyone else care to vote?

Update:  

I haven't exactly counted up the votes since I know it's something like

Yes, Nosenko was a genuine defector -- 50.5  votes

No, Nosenko was a false defector -- 2.5 votes

 

Anyone else have an opinion on this?

 

By the way --  Has anyone here actually read Tennent H. Bagley's  book Spy Wars?  (2007)

Okay then, how about his 37-page sequel, Ghosts of Spy Wars?  (2015)

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/08850607.2014.962362

 

--  Tommy :sun

 

PS  I intended this as a poll thread, not as a discussion thread seein' as how there already are threads on Nosenko, Golitsyn, Angleton, etc.

So please, put your comments, if any, on one of those threads so as not to interrupt the "flow" of this here poll thread.

Thank you.  Thank you very much.

 

 

 

Edited by Thomas Graves

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On 5/6/2017 at 10:34 PM, Thomas Graves said:

Pamela,

Thanks for the input.

My comment:  Maybe I'm wrong, but didn't Nosenko claim to have been in charge of a review of Oswald's case, and therefore privy to Oswald's complete KGB file, before he "defected" in January, 1964?

--  Tommy :sun

Don't recall if I replied specifically to this post or not earlier.  It is my thinking that Nosenko was told he had access to LHO's complete KGB file when that was not the case.  It was really a scenario of the Russian dolls (dolls within dolls).  There were others above him who were using him who DID have access to LHO's complete file.  Thus, Nosenko was a real defector but had been misled intentionally by KGB.  JJA should have figured this out instead of torturing him.  JJA was seriously flawed due to Philby's betrayal and lost his CI acumen imo and never got it back.  

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5 hours ago, Pamela Brown said:

Don't recall if I replied specifically to this post or not earlier.  It is my thinking that Nosenko was told he had access to LHO's complete KGB file when that was not the case.  It was really a scenario of the Russian dolls (dolls within dolls).  There were others above him who were using him who DID have access to LHO's complete file.  Thus, Nosenko was a real defector but had been misled intentionally by KGB.  JJA should have figured this out instead of torturing him.  JJA was seriously flawed due to Philby's betrayal and lost his CI acumen imo and never got it back.  

Yes, Pamela, you already have.

Intriguing theory btw.

Have you read Spy Wars or Ghosts of Spy Wars yet?

In them, Bagley (one of Nosenko's interrorgators) points out that Nosenko's answers changed so much over the years as to suggest that it wasn't just a matter of his KGB superiors' giving him bad information for him to unwittingly pass on to CIA, but that he was lying a lot and having a hard time keeping his lies straight.

--  Tommy :sun

Or put another way, CIA was asking him detailed, unexpected questions on things he'd already knowingly lied about in a general kind of way, and he had a hard time keeping those "secondary" answers straight during subsequent interrogations.

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Posted (edited)

Was Bagely a sadistic, myopic torturer? His later claims about Nosenko are very likely clouded by that part of human nature which demands that we justify what we have done in order to absolve ourselves of guilt. He was also likely incompetent and dangerously-so.

From the recent document release.

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32359254.pdf

Italics are mine...

 

TOP SECRET

13 October 1970

MEMORANDUM FOR THE RECORD

Subject: BAGELY, Tennant, Harrington

#386 38

1) On Wednesday, 7 October 1970 I briefed Colonel L. K. White, Executive  Director-Controller on certain reservations I have concerning the proposed promotion of Bagely to a supergrade position.

 2)  I was very careful to explain to Colonel White at the outset that my reservations had nothing whatsoever to do with Bagely's security status. I explained that it was my conviction that Bagely was almost exclusively responsible for the manner in which the Nosenko case had been handled by our SR division. I said I considered that Bagely lacked objectivity and that he had displayed extremely poor judgment over a two year period in the handling of this case. Specifically as one example of Bagely's extreme prejudice I pointed out that the SR division had neglected to follow up several leads provided by Nosenko which subsequently had been followed up by this office (Bruce Solie) and that this lead us to individuals who have confessed their recruitment and use by the Soviets over an extensive period of time.

3)  I explained further that Bagely displayed extremely poor judgment in the actions he took during that time that  Nosenko was incarcerated at ISOLATION. On many occasions, as the individual responsible for Nosenko's care, I refuse to condone Bagely's  instructions to my people who are guarding him. In one instance Bagely insisted that  Nosenko's food ration be reduced to black bread and water three times daily. After I had briefed Colonel White, he indicated that he would refresh the Director's memory on Bagely's role in the Nosenko case at the time he reviews supergrade promotions. 

 

Howard J. Osborn

Director of Security

 

 

-------------------

And 

Two Documents by Leonard McCoy On Nosenko

 

1978 8 page Cronology of an Effort to Inspire Objective Review of the Nosenko Case

http://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/jfk/NARA-Oct2017/2018/104-10095-10126.pdf

 

1965  58 page conclusion that Nosenko was a true defector 

http://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/jfk/NARA-Oct2017/2018/104-10095-10151.pdf

 

Edited by Michael Clark

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