Jump to content
The Education Forum
  • Announcements

    • Evan Burton

      OPEN REGISTRATION BY EMAIL ONLY !!! PLEASE CLICK ON THIS TITLE FOR INFORMATION REQUIRED FOR REGISTRATION!:   06/03/2017

      We have 5 requirements for registration: 1.Sign up with your real name. (This will be your Username) 2.A valid email address 3.Your agreement to the Terms of Use, seen here: http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=21403. 4. Your photo for use as an avatar  5.. A brief biography. We will post these for you, and send you your password. We cannot approve membership until we receive these. If you are interested, please send an email to: edforumbusiness@outlook.com We look forward to having you as a part of the Forum! Sincerely, The Education Forum Team
Alberto Miatello

Who was the nurse collecting the TRUE bullet falling from Connally's thigh?

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

More fake stuff, eh Bob?

There's no end to it, is there?

And the notation about BELL giving NOLAN some FRAGMENTS in CE2003 (24H260) is fake too, right Bob?

 

What "interview" are you talking about? It's just a receipt/memo. Where is there an "interview"?

As I'm sure you know, I meant to say, receipt. There is no reference to this receipt anywhere in the HSCA records

Until you or someone else can verify the legitimacy of this document, and explain why it is nowhere in the National Archives or the HSCA records and was never mentioned in the HSCA's interview of Bell, it is worthless.

You seem to want us to believe that the FBI which has a record of falsifying evidence in other cases as well as this one, is above reproach. And YES, I will declare an item as "fake stuff" if that's what the evidence and/or lack of evidence proves. My suspicion does not merit ridicule. What merits ridicule is your blind faith in an organization with a dubious track record, whose agenda is to "convince the public" that Oswald acted alone.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bob et al: Part 1

I have decided to place my answer to Bob's question in another thread regarding the Audrey Bell - Robert Nolan receipt document in this thread in the main to indicate to all that the document in question is not only not "worthless" but genuine and available at NARA. I tried to post this earlier in the other thread, with no luck. However, I believe that the issue was my answer was too long. Therefore I am trying again and hope by breaking my answer into multiple parts that it will finally be available for everyone to read. What follows is my answer, "Part 1", verbatim as constructed earlier this date.

I have spent some time today going through my files as well as my three volume writing on the wounding of John Connally in an effort to find the specific reference/"hiding place" for the document in question. In so doing, and having found the reference, I have to make a correction to statements I made [from memory and while on the road] a few days ago. The document is actually a part of the records of the HSCA. In my defense, I have not really done much work on the Connally wounding for well over a decade, spending the majority of my free time on another assassination related project, the true history of the 6.5mm MC ammunition manufactured by the Western Cartridge Company. Nonetheless, the following [below and hereafter highlighted in blue] is from Chapter 31, Volume 3, of my Connally work and gives background as to just how the HSCA acquired materials which do include the Audrey Bell memo/receipt note:

Cliff Fenton, an ex-New York city homicide detective, was appointed Chief Investigator of the HSCA in March of 1977.(*6) On July 15, 1977 – and through the process of subpoena – “Mr. C.J. Price, Administrator, Parkland Memorial Hospital…” was petitioned to turn over “…all documentary and tangible material pertaining to the treatment of President John F. Kennedy and former Governor John Connally on and after November 22, 1963…” Three days later, July 18, 1977, Fenton and HSCA staff member Donald Purdy served Parkland Memorial Assistant Administrator Robert Clark this subpoena and by way of letter dated July 22, 1977, specifically indicated that the HSCA were particularly interested in acquiring “…medical records, photos, any and all documents pertaining to ex-Governor John Connally’s admission on November 22, 1963.”(*7) On that same date, and by way of letter of transmittal, Mr. Clark complied and on July 27, 1977 the HSCA received, among other things, the Governor’s medical record, as requested, - all 119 pages of it.(*8) Although HSCA staff routing slip # 001894  is attached to the Parkland Memorial Hospital record thus acquired and properly identified, there is no indication from the slip that any of this material was re-directed specifically to anyone of the eight HSCA staff members listed on this same routing slip, nor to one of the five major “teams” which comprised the organizational structure of the HSCA’s investigative process and who were likewise listed on this slip. There is simply no written or initialized acknowledgement of receipt by any of these individuals.

The specific HSCA reference number and location where this documentation can be found is: HSCA: Record Number: 180-10096-10351: Numbered Files: Agency File Number: 001894. Box 39. There is a slight corollary to this medical documentation and again from footnote number 8 from the above quotation I wrote the following:

8.     HSCA: Record Number: 180-10096-10351: Agency File Number: 001894. It is rather curious that the HSCA has, as part of its records, two “different” versions of the Governor’s theoretical complete medical history of his stay at Parkland Memorial Hospital. The “second” version, that possessing the higher HSCA record number, comprises some eleven more total pages than its predecessor, listed as being 130 pages in length. Though allegedly larger in documentation than the Fenton/Moriarity version, this second rendering actually contains nine fewer pages of pertinent medical data prepared by various Parkland Memorial Hospital personnel. Included in this listing of fewer pages is; analysis of X-rays taken of the Governor on November 27, December 2, and December 4, all prepared by radiologist Jack Reynolds, as well as post-operative shift notations prepared by the nursing staff responsible for the Governor convalescing care, specifically nurses notes for the dates November 26, 27, 29, 30, and December 1, 2, 3. However, what is different in the second version is the inclusion of three disjointed pages from Secret Service prepared files constructed in January and February, 1964, files previously discussed in this writing; photo static copies of the front and back of the “Foreign Body Envelope” which originally was thought to have contained the fragment or fragments removed by Dr. Gregory from the Governor’s right distal radius, and; a single page from an FBI report dated 11/29/63, a report filed by FBI-SA Vincent Drain describing Drain’s acquisition of X-rays of the Governor’s thigh wound and the analysis of these same X-rays by Dr. Reynolds as discussed within the body of this chapter.

 

Edited by Gary Murr
Having trouble posting the remainder of my answer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Part 2 - I hope

When one acquires a copy of this file you find that there is no pagination involved, though the pages do run roughly chronological beginning from the point of the admittance of Kennedy and Connally to PMH. You will find a copy of the Audrey Bell memorandum in this file - either version. As I further indicated in my writing, there is no indication, and as far as I can tell remains no indication that anyone from the ARRB staff were either aware of this document nor were ever able to find this document either prior to or after their interview with Audrey Bell on March 20, 1997, including Doug Horne who was involved in this process. I think one of the keys in understanding the "confusion" as to whom precisely Audrey Bell may have given the "fragment" evidence envelope in question is to be found in a statement you introduced earlier in this exchange, Bob, when you accurately referenced the following from Audrey Bell herself, her answer to the question posed of her by the HSCA staffer concerning distribution of the envelope:

B:   I delivered them to the FBI, and he signed for them, this was a deviation from our procedure, he signed, ah, there was a, took an inter-office memorandum and wrote on there about my delivering those to the FBI."

I have underlined what to me is the important phrase in this answer - Bell indicating that her delivery of the envelope "to the FBI" [something that is unquestionably false] - represented a "deviation" from normal procedure. What then was or should have been normal procedure? The answer I contend is on the memorandum itself - the individual and entity to whom Audrey Bell originally and "normally" addressed the document and envelope - "Lt. Alexander, Crime Lab." Mrs. Bell did not intend or direct this memo and materials to C. J. Price; she did not intend or label intent to turn this material over to any Federal agent, FBI or otherwise. What she did intend to do was follow normal procedure - send the potential evidentiary material, in this case a bullet fragment or fragments if you like, to the "Crime Lab" at PMH.          

One of the misconceptions that have arisen as a result of any attempt to follow the matter of the paraffin tests is the assumption that Lt. Alexander was a member of the Dallas Police Department. Whether this is precisely true or not is difficult to assess from the surviving record. The first individual to be deposed in Dallas on April 7, 1964, was that fellow officer named by J. B. Hicks as his partner of paraffin paraphernalia, Sergeant W. E. Barnes. Sergeant Barnes was questioned by the other half of that dynamic duo of Commission staff indifference, David Belin. The following exchange, again and quoting from my Connally work, occurred near the end of the Belin – Barnes testimony session:

 

            Mr. Belin.  What did you do? (again, in the office of Capt. Fritz)

            Mr. Barnes.  We got our equipment and got the paraffin melted, and

                        while it was being prepared, we told him we would have to

                        make a paraffin cast of his hands.

            Mr. Belin.  What did he say to that? [i.e. Oswald]

            Mr. Barnes.  It was okay with him.

            Mr. Belin.  Did he say anything as to any other comments he had about

                        the paraffin tests?

            Mr. Barnes.  None other than he stated to me, “What are you trying to

                        do, prove that I fired a gun?” And I said, “I am not trying to prove

      that you fired a gun. We have the test to make, and the chemical

      people at the lab, at the city-county laboratory will determine the

      rest of it.

                        Mr. Belin.  What is the purpose of a paraffin test?

                        Mr. Barnes.  The purpose is to find out if there is any nitrates on

                                    your hands.

                        Mr. Belin.  Officer, how many years have you personally made paraffin

                                    tests?

                        Mr. Barnes.  Since 1956.

                        Mr. Belin.  What is the procedure by which you determine whether or

                                    not there are any nitrates on one’s hands?

                        Mr. Barnes.  The analyses are made at Parkland Hospital by their

                                    personnel.

                        Mr. Belin.  Do they analyze the wax?

                        Mr. Barnes.  They analyze the wax that I remove from his hands after

      the casts are made…  

                        Mr. Belin.  What did you do then?

                        Mr. Barnes.  I initialed the cast, sealed them, and placed them in our

                                    locked evidence room.

                        Mr. Belin.  Where did they go after that?

                        Mr. Barnes.  They go to our city-county laboratory for analysis.

                        Mr. Belin.  Where is that city-county laboratory?

                        Mr. Barnes.  At Parkland Hospital.

                        Mr. Belin.  Do you know when they went there?

                        Mr. Barnes.  The following morning.

                        Mr. Belin.  Did you get the results from this analysis at all?

                        Mr. Barnes.  The results were obtained by our bureau. I didn’t

                                    get the results.  (*108)

 

Perhaps Mr. Belin should have been more interested in just who had done the actually testing – the “chemical people” at Parkland -  than in priming Mr. Barnes with more leading questions. It would have been nice if Belin had found and questioned Lt. Alexander about other matters, such as what he may or may not have known about the fragment or fragments removed from the right distal radius of Governor Connally. And although Belin would also question the one individual from the Dallas Police Department who “directed” officers Barnes and Hicks to undertake the paraffin tests in the first place, Lt. J. C. Day, Belin did not introduce the Parkland Hospital lab results into evidence, even though Day had them in his possession during his April 22, 1964 testimony session with Belin in Washington, D. C. (*109)

 

            In scouring the surviving records of the Dallas Police Department, transferred to the Dallas Municipal Archives in 1989, we once again find scant mention of Lt. Alexander. However, what little we can find indicates that his initials were “F.T” but that is where the trail ends.(*110) As it turns out Lt. Alexander was not involved in the actual processing of the various Oswald paraffin casts. That task fell to fellow DCCCIL Lab employee, Louie Anderson. Anderson’s involvement in this matter was brought to the attention of the Commission, through the auspices of attorney, author, and general pain in the Commission’s craw, Mark Lane, but neither the Commission nor Lane’s chief inquisitor, General Counsel J. Lee Rankin, appeared overtly interested in acquiring the Anderson documentation nor in speaking with Anderson directly.(*111) All of Andersons work, rough notes and finished reports, are currently available for perusal at the Dallas Municipal Archives, scattered throughout the surviving files deposited there by the Dallas Police Department.

 

Edited by Gary Murr

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mr. Murr,

Am I overlooking something, or is there nothing in your messages which suggests that the particular receipt you linked, was in the records turned over to the HSCA by Parkland hospital?

Are you suggesting that it was there, but no one in either the HSCA or ARRB was aware of it? I have found nothing in the HSCA records which suggests that this thing exists, and the National Archives couldn't find it either.

A Google search for the HSCA records listed in the vertical, misaligned text on the right side of this document, leads to a mountain of information, so it would seem that these records were examined and catalogued,  but there is no mention of this receipt anywhere among them,  that I am aware of.

The HSCA label however, does eliminate the possibility of it remaining in the Dallas Municipal Archives, wouldn't you agree?

So, it seems that no one in the HSCA, ARRB or the National Archives was aware of the existence of this alleged receipt. Someone else obviously was however,  the person who gave a copy of it to you.

Who was that Mr. Murr?

And how did he or she locate what no one else on the planet seems to have been able to find?

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Excuse me, not to interrupt the flow of this interesting debate, but what were the official finding results of the Parkland hospital analysis of the paraffin tests on Oswald?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
47 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Excuse me, not to interrupt the flow of this interesting debate, but what were the official finding results of the Parkland hospital analysis of the paraffin tests on Oswald?

"A paraffin test was applied to Oswald's hands and right cheek; his hands reacted positively, whereas his cheek did not."

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/factoid2.htm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Robert Harris said:

Mr. Murr,

Am I overlooking something, or is there nothing in your messages which suggests that the particular receipt you linked, was in the records turned over to the HSCA by Parkland hospital?

Are you suggesting that it was there, but no one in either the HSCA or ARRB was aware of it? I have found nothing in the HSCA records which suggests that this thing exists, and the National Archives couldn't find it either.

A Google search for the HSCA records listed in the vertical, misaligned text on the right side of this document, leads to a mountain of information, so it would seem that these records were examined and catalogued,  but there is no mention of this receipt anywhere among them,  that I am aware of.

The HSCA label however, does eliminate the possibility of it remaining in the Dallas Municipal Archives, wouldn't you agree?

So, it seems that no one in the HSCA, ARRB or the National Archives was aware of the existence of this alleged receipt. Someone else obviously was however,  the person who gave a copy of it to you.

Who was that Mr. Murr?

And how did he or she locate what no one else on the planet seems to have been able to find?

My answer to your posting is below

Robert:

REALLY? I MEAN, REALLY? This answer on your part leaves me with the distinct impression that you have absolutely no idea or understanding of; [1] my response to your repeated requests to give you "proof" of the existence of the Audrey Bell receipt, though given the content of your reply you obviously still hold out the belief - or is it desire - that the document remain or must be a "forgery" of some sort and; [[2] you have little idea of just how evidence in this case is catalogued and retrieved at NARA. Have you ever been to the archives, had materials pulled by the archive staff for perusal, and then taken the time to thereafter copy any of these materials for future reference? In an effort to clarify my response not only for your edification but for everyone else who has an interest in this subject matter I indicate the following.

The reason no member of the NARA staff would be able to find the Bell receipt, duly signed by the individual to whom the material was passed, Robert Nolan, is because it is not an individual item exhibit - it does not exist as a singular piece of paper with its own assigned RIF sheet readily available for retrieval. It is but one sheet of paper in a larger file, which as I attempted to indicate to you, is a part of the records acquired by the staff of the HSCA. Copies of his same file - and I repeat here the precise NARA file reference information where anyone can find and thereafter copy this same sheet - HSCA: Record Number: 180-10096-10351: Numbered Files: Agency File Number: 001894. Box 39 - are available for anyone to have. As I also indicated in my prior response, this file exists at NARA in two slightly different versions, each of which is 100+ pages in length of composition, and I clearly indicated, via one of my footnotes, just what this minor differences were for each file. This same file was never a part of the records of the Dallas Municipal Archives but was and remains part of the records of the HSCA and has been since the "original" copy of the file was retrieved by HSCA Chief Investigator, Cliff Fenton, in 1977, the actual file/document arriving for HSCA staff perusal in July of that same year.

No one "gave" me a copy of this receipt - I found it on my own during one of my research trips to NARA in the late 1990's. And to be honest with you, it literally was sheer luck that I was able to do so because as is my practice, when I go to NARA I stay for approximately a week at a time. I pre-order thousands of pages of documents from NARA staff months in advance of my arrival at NARA and on a day to day basis, file by file, I sit, like all other researchers, in a cubicle and go through each file that has been assembled for me by the NARA staff, page be page, making note of those that most interest me. It was while examining, and then later copying the Fenton acquired "complete" PMH medical history file on John Connally that I found the Audrey Bell receipt document - again, but a single page in a file of over 100 pages, a file bearing the NARA RIF record identifier I have included herein in red type.

 

Gary 

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's now wave Bye-Bye to Robert Harris' theory about Audrey Bell never giving ANY envelope to Highway Patrolman Bobby Nolan.

Please also take note of the signature of "Bob Nolan" in the Dallas County Hospital memorandum that Gary Murr dug up in the 1990s, and note the similarity in the "B" and the "N" in that signature when compared to Nolan's initials that he placed on the envelope that became CE842. Did somebody fake Bobby Nolan's handwriting on the hospital memo, Mr. Harris?

Bell-Nolan-Receipt.jpg ------ CE842-Bobby-Nolan-Initials.jpg

What are the odds that Bob Harris will admit he was wrong all these years when he has insisted that "it was NOT Audrey Bell, a seasoned emergency room supervisor, who gave him [Bobby Nolan] that envelope" [quote from Robert Harris on August 4, 2011]? Not much of a chance at all, I wager.

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Gary Murr said:

 

Ok, so if I request confirmation of this document from the NA and tell them to look at HSCA: Record Number: 180-10096-10351: Numbered Files: Agency File Number: 001894. Box 39, I will get a confirmation, right?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

Let's now wave Bye-Bye to Robert Harris' theory about Audrey Bell never giving ANY envelope to Highway Patrolman Bobby Nolan

What are the odds that Bob Harris will admit he was wrong all these years when he has insisted that "The FBI lied about what nursing supervisor Bell told them regarding the wrist fragments she processed -- even claiming she said she only processed a single fragment" [quote from Robert Harris on July 7, 2014]? Not much of a chance at all, I wager.

I'm sorry you have to sink to such an ugly personal insult, David, especially since this receipt has yet to be corroborated by the NA, and you have made absolutely no attempt to verify it.

It contradicts not just Bell's statement that she gave her fragments to federal, plain clothed agents, but the fact that she transferred 4 fragments, not one.

And it contradicts Nolan, Stinson and Wade, all of whom were told by a nurse that this was a whole bullet, from Connally's stretcher, which is another contradiction, since Bell's fragments were recovered during surgery - and NOT taken from his stretcher.

But none of that matters to you, does it? All that matters is that the evidence supports conspiracy and coverup. This "receipt" could have been written on toilet paper with a red crayon and you would be cheering wildly for it:-)

I have already put in a request to the NA, to look for this thing in HSCA: Record Number: 180-10096-10351: Numbered Files: Agency File Number: 001894. Box 39.

Legitimate or not, let's see if it at least exists where Gary claims.

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mr. Harris:

Can I just reiterate - from my own personal experience - that NOBODY knows of the existence and contents of every piece of paper in every file in NARA. I will add that even the originators of some of those documents themselves don't remember anything about them. I can give you a very recent  specific example of this - the NARA staff copied a series of documents for me recently, and I subsequently contacted the originator of the documents through a third party in order to follow-up on the contents of the set of documents. The originator, who was a research attorney for the HSCA, has no recollection of the anything to do with the subject matter (which was of some serious interest to the HSCA), much less the contents of that specific series of documents. Contact with a member of the HSCA Panel which dealt with the issue, and with which the panel member in question had personal involvement, got the same reply - no recollection whatsoever!

Take that in the context of the voluminous JFK assassination files at NARA, and it is a constant source of amazement to me that the under-resourced staff at NARA can find even half of what that do find. The record-keeping of such as the HSCA and ARRB was shamefully inadequate, incomplete and inept, and if Gary says he found a particular document, then I would have no reason whatsoever to doubt him.

Just my tuppence-worth!

Chris.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Chris Scally said:

Mr. Harris:

Can I just reiterate - from my own personal experience - that NOBODY knows of the existence and contents of every piece of paper in every file in NARA. I will add that even the originators of some of those documents themselves don't remember anything about them. I can give you a very recent  specific example of this - the NARA staff copied a series of documents for me recently, and I subsequently contacted the originator of the documents through a third party in order to follow-up on the contents of the set of documents. The originator, who was a research attorney for the HSCA, has no recollection of the anything to do with the subject matter (which was of some serious interest to the HSCA), much less the contents of that specific series of documents. Contact with a member of the HSCA Panel which dealt with the issue, and with which the panel member in question had personal involvement, got the same reply - no recollection whatsoever!

Take that in the context of the voluminous JFK assassination files at NARA, and it is a constant source of amazement to me that the under-resourced staff at NARA can find even half of what that do find. The record-keeping of such as the HSCA and ARRB was shamefully inadequate, incomplete and inept, and if Gary says he found a particular document, then I would have no reason whatsoever to doubt him.

Just my tuppence-worth!

Chris.

Chris,

Thanks for the tip. I have included the specific information that Gary provided, in my NA request, so they should have no problem finding this item.

 

Bob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, Robert Harris said:

...this receipt has yet to be corroborated by the NA, and you have made absolutely no attempt to verify it.

It practically verifies itself. It's got Bobby Nolan's handwritten signature on it, perfectly matching the unique "B" that we also find in CE842 (when we turn Exhibit 842 upside down, that is).

The hospital memo also has Audrey Bell's signature on it too. Maybe we can get a handwriting expert in here to see if Bell's signature on the hospital memo matches any of the writing on CE842, which I believe has at least some of Bell's handwriting on it (but it looks like more than just Bell wrote some of the words we find on that envelope).

And the hospital memo also matches the information seen in CE2003 (at 24 H 260), which says that BELL gave fragments (plural this time) to NOLAN.

That makes two documents that corroborate each other about Bell giving fragments (or a "fragment"), but not a whole BULLET, to Bob Nolan.

All fake, Bob? Including the nicely-matching signature of Nolan himself on the hospital memo/receipt?

 

 

Edited by David Von Pein

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

It practically verifies itself. It's got Bobby Nolan's handwritten signature on it, perfectly matching the unique "B" that we also find in CE842 (when we turn Exhibit 842 upside down, that is).

The hospital memo also has Audrey Bell's signature on it too. Maybe we can get a handwriting expert in here to see if Bell's signature on the hospital memo matches any of the writing on CE842, which I believe has at least some of Bell's handwriting on it (but it looks like more than just Bell wrote some of the words we find on that envelope).

And the hospital memo also matches the information seen in CE2003 (at 24 H 260), which says that BELL gave fragments (plural this time) to NOLAN.

That makes two documents that corroborate each other about Bell giving fragments (or a "fragment"), but not a whole BULLET, to Bob Nolan.

All fake, Bob? Including the nicely-matching signature of Nolan himself on the hospital memo/receipt?

 

 

"Nicely matching" what?? You have no idea whether those signatures are Bell's and Nolan's. Blurting out that they are, just doesn't cut it
David. You seem to have no concept of evidence. Tell me David, is this authentic?

mrhunt.jpg

There is no verification and no confirmed source for it - JUST LIKE THE ALLEGED BELL RECEIPT. So surely, you believe it is legit too, right:-)

And yes, everyone was TOLD that Bell gave her "fragment" to Nolan. But try to find anyone outside of the FBI who claimed that they heard Bell say it. You won't find a single soul, David.

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now

×