The latest from Ruth Paine

[Paul Trejo]

4 hours ago, Mark Knight said:

The Warren Commission was an INVESTIGATIVE BODY, not a prosecutor.  

The US Attorney General was NOT on the Warren Commission.

NO PROSECUTORS were on the Warren Commission.

Earl Warren was Chief Justice, which is a JUDGE, and NOT a prosecutor.

The Warren Commission prosecuted NO ONE...because that WAS NOT THEIR MISSION... 

Mark,

The purport of the question was why the Warren Commission did not FURTHER INVESTIGATE the Secret Service accusation that Ruth Paine forged the "Walker Letter".

It was an alleged crime -- and even though the WC itself did not prosecute, they would have forwarded it to others for prosecution, if their INVESTIGATION would have determined that Ruth Paine had actually forged it.

But you knew that.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited August 17, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

On 8/16/2017 at 8:30 PM, Chris Newton said:

It's been established in the testimony that she could not have seen the plate on November 1st or November 5th because Hosty parked his unmarked car down the street. When did Marina record the plate number?

Chris,

Here is the account as told by Marina Oswald for the book, Marina and Lee (1977)

"She slipped out of the bedroom into the kitchen and dining area, out of the kitchen door, and around the house.  She had no trouble finding Hosty's car, and without the smallest feeling of being in a hurry -- "I am a sneaky girl," she laughs -- she walked around and around it, trying to figure out what make it was.  This she was unable to do because she could not read English.  But she studied the color and memorized the license number.  Then she came back into the house."

Works for me,

--Paul Trejo

Edited August 20, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Mark Knight]

20 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Mark,

The purport of the question was why the Warren Commission did not FURTHER INVESTIGATE the Secret Service accusation that Ruth Paine forged the "Walker Letter".

It was an alleged crime -- and even though the WC itself did not prosecute, they would have forwarded it to others for prosecution, if their INVESTIGATION would have determined that Ruth Paine had actually forged it.

But you knew that.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

But you asked why they didn't PROSECUTE.

I answered your question as it was asked.  Unlike you, I don't read minds. I read words.

[Ron Bulman]

On ‎8‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 10:24 PM, Paul Trejo said:

Chris,

Here is the account as told by Marina Oswald for the book, Marina and Lee (1977)

"She slipped out of the bedroom into the kitchen and dining area, out of the kitchen door, and around the house.  She had no trouble finding Hosty's car, and without the smallest feeling of being in a hurry -- "I am a sneaky girl," she laughs -- she walked around and around it, trying to figure out what make it was.  This she was unable to do because she could not read English.  But she studied the color and memorized the license number.  Then she came back into the house."

Works for me,
--Paul Trejo

Open mouth and insert foot.  I hastily replied to testimony I was not fully familiar with.  Chris corrected me.  Thank you Chris.

Marina and Lee?  Fiction.  "Slipped out, around the house, I am a sneaky girl she laughs",  "could not read English", others say she could at least speak it.  Some suspect, with reason,  Marina was handed off from Ruth to Priscilla. 

http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKjohnsonPR.htm

And that she was a CIA Operation Mockingbird asset.

Edited August 18, 2017 by Ron Bulman

[Paul Trejo]

33 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Open mouth and insert foot.  I hastily replied to testimony I was not fully familiar with.  Chris corrected me.  Thank you Chris.

Marina and Lee?  Fiction.  "Slipped out, around the house, I am a sneaky girl she laughs",  "could not read English", others say she could at least speak it.  Some suspect, with reason,  Marina was handed off from Ruth to Priscilla. 

http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKjohnsonPR.htm

And that she was a CIA Operation Mockingbird asset.

Ay, ay, ay.   You invent cloak-and-dagger fiction, but you accuse other people of doing it?

Marina Oswald herself explained what she herself did.  That's not fiction, Ron.  That's autobiography.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited August 18, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Chris Newton]

23 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

Thank you Chris.

Hi Ron.

There is actually one scenario that could accommodate both Marina's testimony and the troubles imposed by the extant timeline. Marina had no opportunity to go down the street and record Hosty's license plate number on Nov. 1st. Even if she had been able to go out the back unnoticed, she would have needed to cross a fence and the concrete drainage ditch that runs parallel along it's entire length in Mrs. Paine's backyard. Of course, if that weren't enough we are also to believe that Marina would have known which car was Hosty's unmarked sedan.

The Nov. 5th Hosty visit, is even more problematic. Hosty came with another Agent who stood outside in the driveway and the meeting lasted for less than 5 minutes (2-3 minutes by Hosty's testimony). Hosty claims to have not spoken to Marina but to have given her a "nod" as she stood behind Ruth. There are conflicting statements about where Hosty parked on the 5th. He says he parked in the same place down the street as he did on the first visit, (and the pretext visit), and Ruth claimed that he parked behind Michael's recently purchased second car out by the curb nearer to the front of the house. Counsel Jenner tested that theory, that Marina could see the plates of a car parked at the curb from her bedroom window, and it was determined that it was not possible. Ruth was present during this exchange and agreed.

So she didn't memorize the number on Nov. 1st or Nov. 5th but she testified she did "memorize" it and that she gave it to Lee.

Solution?  a different day and an additional visit?

 

PS wow. The world's laziest researcher is quoting PJM? No surprises

[James DiEugenio]

Note Paul's use of primary sources to solve that riddle?

 

BTW, I agree with Chris, there was another visit.

[Chris Newton]

17 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Note Paul's use of primary sources to solve that riddle?

BTW, I agree with Chris, there was another visit.

 

Thanks Jim,

I kinda misspoke in my assertion above. I started off saying "there is actually one scenario..." and I didn't really mean to assert that was the only possible alternative.

Marina could have been coerced into testifying a falsehood. Protests concerning the interrogation of her were abundant. In some cases this behavior was recorded, such as in the recollections of Life Photographer Alan Grant, and here as reported by the FBI themselves in regards to Robert Oswald's objections:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=60313&relPageId=99

My personal belief is that there were more visits and these visits and their purpose were of great concern to the FBI and the persons involved. However, it can't be ruled out that a frightened and vulnerable Marina was taken advantage of and that that forever tainted her subsequent testimonies.

 

Edited August 18, 2017 by Chris Newton

[Paul Trejo]

•  

  On 8/16/2017 at 8:30 PM, Chris Newton said:

It's been established in the testimony that she could not have seen the plate on November 1st or November 5th because Hosty parked his unmarked car down the street. When did Marina record the plate number?

Chris,

Here is the account as told by Marina Oswald for the book, Marina and Lee (1977)

"She slipped out of the bedroom into the kitchen and dining area, out of the kitchen door, and around the house.  She had no trouble finding Hosty's car, and without the smallest feeling of being in a hurry -- "I am a sneaky girl," she laughs -- she walked around and around it, trying to figure out what make it was.  This she was unable to do because she could not read English.  But she studied the color and memorized the license number.  Then she came back into the house."

This is Marina Oswald telling Priscilla Johnson McMillan (PJM) who was a freelance writer who sometimes worked for the CIA on a contract basis. She was a capable writer, so good for her.

But for Marina and Lee (1977) PJM was trying to make some real publishing money -- so she makes contract with Marina Oswald to review the thousand plus pages of her Warren Commission testimony, and rearrange it to read like a novel, so that Mr. and Mrs. American Consumer would buy it.

Marina, it turns out, has no imagination.  She repeats again and again what she already told the Warren Commission.  Plus, her English is still a little slow.  Priscilla wants that money -- so she pulls an interviewer/interviewee relationship on Marina, and tries to get her to tell more.  So, we get little snippiets like this -- details that do not contradict her WC testimony but add detail.

Marina admitted to the WC that she snuck out of Ruth Paine's house and memorized Hosty's license plate number -- as instructed by LHO.   To Priscilla she added the details -- from this room to htis room through this door then out the back.   "I'm a sneaky girl!"

Marina walks around and around Hosty's car -- what make is it -- I can't read English?   I don't know!  Too bad!\

So she goes back into the house through the back

Is there anybody anywhere that fails to see the simplicity and plausibility of this?

Why do people refuse to believe it?  Because they can't get out of their minds the obsession that Priscilla McMillan is a CIA agent.

OK, what CIA evil is Priscilla plotting?   Well, we don't know, but we can't believe anything anybody says as long as she's around!

So, that the status.

Y''all asked the question -- how did Marina Oswald get Hosty's car license number?   Marina told you in detail.  But PJM was present -- so you reject the whole answer.

The answer is there.   It's an easy answer.   You just refuse to accept it.    So sad.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Guest]

I just had a quick browse through this topic after Malcolm Blunt sent me a document through the snail mail today and did a follow up search. Seems that not many people have gotten their hands on the document in question that is being discussed in the first ten or so pages. Unless I have overlooked matters.

The wait is over.

 

 

[Jeff Carter]

On page three of the document provided by Bart Kamp:

“Dallas files were reviewed and there definitely was no telephone tap by the FBI at the PAYNE residence subsequent to the assassination.” (emphasis added) The document continues by referring (“it is noted”) to Marina Oswald being placed in protective custody “immediately following the assassination”, and that “subsequently” (i.e. three months later) moved to a private address which was immediately wiretapped and even had a microphone “installed and in operation”. 

The author of the document seems to parse events “subsequent” to the assassination and “immediately following” the assassination, which appears to confirm without openly stating that there was a wiretap on the Paine residence on Nov 22, 1963 which captured a conversation “immediately following” the assassination. That there was no wiretap on the Paines “subsequent” to these events (leaving aside whether there was one in place prior to events), while the author takes care to note that Marina Oswald was later subject to surveillance, does appear to support the notion that the wiretap on the Paine household was directed at Marina Oswald.

[James DiEugenio]

Jeff:

 

What is your take on this?  Did Barger plant the bug for the FBI, and is the FBI now trying to deny responsibility for it after the assassination?

It would seem to me that the FBI suspected Marina was,as Hosty said, a Sleeper Agent.  That appears to be the reason for the bug as far as this document goes.

Although, I must say, I am not sure just how much they would accept Aynesworth into their secret lair.  The guy does have a big mouth.

[Paul Trejo]

21 hours ago, Jeff Carter said:

On page three of the document provided by Bart Kamp:

“Dallas files were reviewed and there definitely was no telephone tap by the FBI at the PAYNE residence subsequent to the assassination.” (emphasis added) The document continues by referring (“it is noted”) to Marina Oswald being placed in protective custody “immediately following the assassination”, and that “subsequently” (i.e. three months later) moved to a private address which was immediately wiretapped and even had a microphone “installed and in operation”. 

The author of the document seems to parse events “subsequent” to the assassination and “immediately following” the assassination, which appears to confirm without openly stating that there was a wiretap on the Paine residence on Nov 22, 1963 which captured a conversation “immediately following” the assassination. That there was no wiretap on the Paines “subsequent” to these events (leaving aside whether there was one in place prior to events), while the author takes care to note that Marina Oswald was later subject to surveillance, does appear to support the notion that the wiretap on the Paine household was directed at Marina Oswald.

Jeff,

It seems to me that somebody is trying to set up Ruth Paine.   Marina Oswald is also a target -- but a naïve and non-English speaking target. 

No, Ruth Paine is the real target here -- and SOMEBODY tapped her phone.   We still can't determine WHO yet -- even with this new document by Aynesworth.

I suspect that FBI agent James Hosty requested this wire-tap -- possibly unknown to FBI HQ -- because Ruth Paine herself was secondary to Lee Harvey Oswald.  This was the actual target of the wiretap.

FBI agent James Hosty was working with Walker partner and KKK publisher, Robert Alan Surrey, who produced the WANTED FOR TREASON: JFK handbills that circulated around Dallas from October 24th to November 22nd.    The Secret Service PRS asked Hosty directly -- who published these?   And Hosty repeatedly reported: "I have no idea." 

Yet: (1) Hosty's main duty in Dallas was to track General Walker and the Radical Right in Dallas; and (2) Robert Alan Surrey was Hosty's bridge partner for years, according to Penn  Jones Jr.

So -- working with General Walker to make Lee Harvey Oswald into their Patsy -- it seems to me that James Hosty pretended that the FBI wanted this wire-tap, and it was put up -- possibly for free -- as a patriotic duty to spy on Ruth Paine for no good reason.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Jeff Carter]

2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Jeff:

 

What is your take on this?  Did Barger plant the bug for the FBI, and is the FBI now trying to deny responsibility for it after the assassination?

It would seem to me that the FBI suspected Marina was,as Hosty said, a Sleeper Agent.  That appears to be the reason for the bug as far as this document goes.

Although, I must say, I am not sure just how much they would accept Aynesworth into their secret lair.  The guy does have a big mouth.

I believe Barger was the FBI’s liaison within the Irving Police Department. When Ruth Paine started finding new evidence, she took it to the Irving Police and asked for Barger. Barger was sent to the phone company on the weekend after the assassination and reports on the 1 PM Nov 22 phone call between Ruth and Michael. Whether he had set the tap himself or was just acting as a liaison to examine contents - probably not knowable. 

The problem for the FBI was twofold: the content of the phone call got into the record and therefore had to be explained, and that the wife and babysitters of the lone nut assassin were under surveillance prior to the assassination would have to be explained.  So in 1963-64, the story was that the monitoring of the call was accidental and done by a phone company employee, and that the alleged contents of the call were just a rumour, denied by Michael Paine (attributing the false date). 

In the mid-70s, FBI documents are declassified and the original reports on the phone call are unearthed. Led by Bud Fensterwald, the reaction to the call’s content leads to the public attention which was carefully avoided in 1963-64. This is where we see Aynesworth jumping in to assist with damage control. He digs up Barger, who tells a new story about a phone company technician who accidentally and coincidentally monitored the call while engaged in routine maintenance.At the HSCA, the story is not really pursued, and somehow the Paines are not interviewed. But the phone call itself, as well as its contents, are not denied by anyone (other than Michael Paine’s coached denials in 1963-64). 

FBI documents referring to this call, from 1963-64 and then again in the mid 1970s, appear to be carefully worded to confirm surveillance on the Paine household without ever actually using the word “wiretap”. I would think that this is one of the FBI’s big secrets in this case, as it undermines the obscure lone nut loser narrative and also introduces a “dog that did not bark” element in that the follow up to a potential huge lead (“we know who is responsible”) was so muted, in contrast to the reaction exhibited in the mid-70s by the Congressmen when this story was unearthed.

[Jeff Carter]

1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

Jeff,

It seems to me that somebody is trying to set up Ruth Paine.   Marina Oswald is also a target -- but a naïve and non-English speaking target. 

No, Ruth Paine is the real target here -- and SOMEBODY tapped her phone.   We still can't determine WHO yet -- even with this new document by Aynesworth.

I suspect that FBI agent James Hosty requested this wire-tap -- possibly unknown to FBI HQ -- because Ruth Paine herself was secondary to Lee Harvey Oswald.  This was the actual target of the wiretap.

FBI agent James Hosty was working with Walker partner and KKK publisher, Robert Alan Surrey, who produced the WANTED FOR TREASON: JFK handbills that circulated around Dallas from October 24th to November 22nd.    The Secret Service PRS asked Hosty directly -- who published these?   And Hosty repeatedly reported: "I have no idea." 

Yet: (1) Hosty's main duty in Dallas was to track General Walker and the Radical Right in Dallas; and (2) Robert Alan Surrey was Hosty's bridge partner for years, according to Penn  Jones Jr.

So -- working with General Walker to make Lee Harvey Oswald into their Patsy -- it seems to me that James Hosty pretended that the FBI wanted this wire-tap, and it was put up -- possibly for free -- as a patriotic duty to spy on Ruth Paine for no good reason.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul, the FBI document from 1976 posted by Bart Kamp is either a) poorly composed and sloppily written (i.e. imprecision between “subsequent” and immediately following” within a few sentences) or b   carefully written to imply information without actually stating the information. I presume the latter because it is discussing a historical document trail rather than events happening in the moment. That the author jumps from a reference to a possible tap on the Paine household directly to a description of a later tap on Marina Oswald, strongly suggests a correlation. 

If the wiretap was a rogue Hosty operation, then there is no reason for Barger to be involved and it would be highly unlikely that the documents which exist would have been generated.There is no indication in the record that anyone was setting Ruth Paine up, or that either of the Paines were seriously under suspicion.

Edited December 8, 2017 by Jeff Carter
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