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Dan Doyle

The latest from Ruth Paine

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37 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

BTW, what was the time of the intercepted phone call?

The WC testimony of MP, that I have, does not provide a time for the call. AFAIK, Ruth is never asked.

 

Mr. LIEBELER - Now, there has been a report that on November 23, 1963, there was a telephone call between a man and a woman, between the numbers of your residence and the number of your office, in which the man was reported to have said in words or substance, "We both know who is responsible for the assassination." Have you been asked about this before?
Mr. PAINE - I had heard that--I didn't know it was associated with our numbers. I had heard a report that some telephone operator had listened in on a conversation somewhere, I don't know where it was. I thought it was some other part of the country.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you talk to your wife on the telephone at any time during Saturday, November 23, on the telephone?
Mr. PAINE - I was in the police station again, and I think I called her from there.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you make any remark to the effect that you knew who was responsible?
Mr. PAINE - And I don't know who the assassin is or was; no, so I did not.
Mr. LIEBELER - You are positive in your recollection that you made no such remark?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.

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14 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

The WC testimony of MP, that I have, does not provide a time for the call. AFAIK, Ruth is never asked.

 

Mr. LIEBELER - Now, there has been a report that on      November 23, 1963,       there was a telephone call between a man and a woman, between the numbers of your residence and the number of your office, in which the man was reported to have said in words or substance, "We both know who is responsible for the assassination." Have you been asked about this before?
Mr. PAINE - I had heard that--I didn't know it was associated with our numbers. I had heard a report that some telephone operator had listened in on a conversation somewhere, I don't know where it was. I thought it was some other part of the country.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you talk to your wife on the telephone at any time during        Saturday, November 23,       on the telephone?
Mr. PAINE - I was in the police station again, and I think I called her from there.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you make any remark to the effect that you knew who was responsible?
Mr. PAINE - And I don't know who the assassin is or was; no, so I did not.
Mr. LIEBELER - You are positive in your recollection that you made no such remark?
Mr. PAINE - Yes.

Thanks for posting this Micheal Paine WC testimony Michael.

Again, notice that Liebeler repeats the next day date twice in asking MP about the " we both know who's responsible" phone tap call.

IMO Liebeler does this to give MP deniability.  MP doesn't have to lie when denying being a party to this phone tap call because of that wrong date ( 11, 23,1963)

The phone tap call between Ruth and Micheal took place within one hour of the assassination on  11,22,1963.

When Oswald reportedly showed Micheal Paine a picture of himself brandishing a rifle and pistol while holding Commie magazines, I have to think that Michael Paine would not simply laugh off the rather aggressive gun toting photo as the actions of a clown.

Paine was supposedly a Pacifist as was Ruth - correct?  He was not the gun loving hunter type.  I don't know what I am but I've never owned or possessed any guns in my 65 years and when I do happen to socialize with others who like their guns and would proudly pose with them like Oswald, I cringe a little. The great majority of the people I have met like this always seemed much more aggressive and kind of military right or wrong types and I never purposely arrange to socialize with them again.

I'm just trying to put myself in " non-aggressive" Michael Paine's shoes when Oswald shows him the cocky gun holding photo. The pistol makes the photo and Oswald seem even more aggressively gung ho.

I wouldn't have laughed that photo off. And I would absolutely tell my wife about it knowing that this gun lover was staying in her home from time to time and around my children to boot.

Lastly, while the Paine's may not have been "100% committed" about Oswald's guilt during that 11,22,1963 phone tapped call, they clearly suspected him heavily, maybe even with 90% suspicion.

But they then suggest to each other in an implying way that they felt the radical right wing was responsible for JFK's death even if Lee Harvey Oswald pulled the trigger.  What is the logic in their thinking and suspicions to connect the two?

They supposedly knew Oswald well enough to make distinct takes on what they felt he was all about.  In all that they saw and felt...what aspect of it were they using to link the radical right to Oswald in any way?

And when they say radical right and who put the JFK threatening posters and newspaper ads out there, they must have known the final power of the radical right were the richest men on Earth at that time...Texas Oil men.  And who did their bidding in the highest office way? Lyndon Johnson.

Can you have Oswald as the JFK trigger man and still have the wealthy radical right behind the murder? Please, I'd like to hear others take on the Paine's take.

Edited by Joe Bauer

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Joe:

Which story do you believe about when Mike saw the BYP?  To me he came out with a new story in 1993 for Gus Russo.  Different than anything he said or did not say before.  Later on he said he saw the BYP twice, once when LHO showed it to him in the spring, and once at DPD on Friday night. 

See if you can find anything about those instances in his WC testimony.

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I think the key to Michael and Ruth Paine's relationship with Lee Harvey Oswald is that they didn't like him very much.

Nor did they fear him.   Nor did they pity him.  They just sort of tolerated him, because Ruth Paine liked Marina Oswald very much.

Think of it this way -- Ruth Paine was living in Irving, Texas, but she was from a wealthy, college-educated family on the East Coast.  In Irving, Texas, she may have been the only college-educated female for 10 miles in any direction.  After her separation from Michael, Ruth Paine took good care of her children -- but for herself she wanted to continue to grow intellectually.

Ruth Paine had chosen to learn to speak Russian while she was in high-school.  She knew she had a high IQ, and she wanted to make herself useful to the cause of World Peace.  So, she would reach out beyond the Cold War and try to make friends with Russian pen-pals.  But it is one thing to study a foreign language from books -- it is an entirely different matter to carry on a conversation with a native speaker.   (Any American who travels to Mexico City knows this from raw experience.)

So, on February 22, 1963, at a party at the apartment of Everett Glover (engineer and fellow madrigal singer), Ruth Paine met Marina Oswald -- this young, college-educated young mother who spoke only Russian.  Ruth tried to converse with her, but Ruth's Russian conversational skills were awful.  Still, Marina was kind and gentle, and politely corrected Ruth's grammar.  Ruth was sold.  This was going to be her new friend.

Ruth worked very hard from that February 1963 party to make Marina Oswald her close personal friend.  The main trouble was that Marina came burdened with Lee Oswald.  Right or wrong, Marina Oswald began immediately to complain about Lee Oswald.  That's what started Ruth thinking that she had to "save" Marina Oswald -- who quickly revealed to Ruth that she was pregnant again -- and that Lee Oswald was threatening to send her back to the USSR without him.  Ruth was biased against Lee from this moment on.

Ruth told Michael Paine all about it -- and Michael didn't like gossip -- but when Michael finally met Lee Oswald, he was unimpressed.  Here was a Fake Communist, he said.  A Real Communist would have joined a Party, and would be making sensible plans to pursue the Party Goal.  But Lee Oswald was self-obsessed, e.g. in his Backyard Photograph (which Michael saw on April 2, 1963) of which Lee Oswald was so proud, Michael thought he looked like a clown.

Although Michael and Ruth Paine didn't particularly like Lee Harvey Oswald -- they didn't hate him, either -- or fear him.  They got to know him -- and they could not believe that this kooky guy would kill JFK.  They were not part of the Dallas/Ft. Worth Russian Community (since they didn't speak Russian well enough, nor were they Russian Orthodox Christians), but their WC testimony agreed firmly with the Dallas Russians -- Lee Harvey Oswald was kooky, but not fearsome; he was no killer.  LHO killed nobody.  That was their original feeling on the topic, and they said so.

Starting 54 years ago, we should have been looking at the Radical Right Wing in Dallas -- including rightist elements inside the Dallas Police.  That's my humble opinion.  LHO was killed in the custody of the Dallas Police, by a pawn of the Dallas Police.  That was the first clue, IMHO.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo

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Of course your right Paul.  It's 10.8 miles from Irving to Highland Park.

http://maps.randmcnally.com/mileage-calculator.do

All those country girls in 63' in South and West Dallas, Irving, Oak Cliff, Cedar Hill, Coppell, Grapevine, none of them ever went off to SMU,TCU, UT, certainly none ever to an IVY League school.  Ruth was an ideologue in the woods babysitting the poor immigrant Marina? 

Regarding "World Peace", why did Ruth get kicked out of Nicaragua for asking questions, taking lot's of notes and being suspected of being a spy for the CIA?  Why did she get kicked off of what ever island it was they sent her to then for the same thing?

"Still Marina was kind and gentle and politely corrected Ruth's grammar". 

Then again Swathmore's not IVY league is it?

 

 

Edited by Ron Bulman

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I would like to address my question to Joe again.

 

Which story by Michael Paine do you believe about the BYP?  His one for the WC, his one for Gus Russo, or his third one about seeing it at DPD.  The problem is they are not compatible.  Its too bad he is not testifying in November because i Have a funny feeling he would be torn apart on this by Larry Schnapf.

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One of the things that doesn't sit right with me is the total nonchalance of both Paines in regards to the FBI visits of early November (and late Oct. if you want to believe Marina and the SS).

I'd think that being visited by the FBI would be a big deal, even today. If the visit had nothing to do with me and they were just asking about someone I knew, I'd still be pretty shook up over it. I know I'd be pretty nervous if the same person they were looking for had a bunch of stuff in my garage and I decided not to mention that fact. Oh shoot... they asked where he lived and I forgot to give them his phone number. Four days later they're back, two of them this time,  asking the same old questions... I forgot about that all stuff again. drat.

Then to get dragged downtown by the Sheriff and the DPD in a squad car because that guy that the FBI was out to my place looking for... he shot POTUS!  Don't ask me why I didn't mention the letter I stole from the alleged killer to them. It slipped my mind too.

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Chris, I agree. 

I've never been visited like that but like most people it would shake me up.

And my reaction to all this scary agency visit concern about L.H. Oswald would make me view Oswald with much more serious concern than him simply being a clown and/or a flake.

Jim D I am going to Michael Paine's WC  testimony right now to fact check exactly what he said about the phone call and the time lines including his later date claims of such.  Paine sure held back a lot IMO.

The responses MP gave Liebeler when asked about the phone tap call were so meandering and off-point they were nonsensical and clearly obfuscating. MP's staggering was so obvious when confronted by this subject, more so than any others in his questioning.

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On ‎7‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 11:14 PM, Ron Bulman said:

Of course you're right Paul.  It's 10.8 miles from Irving to Highland Park.

http://maps.randmcnally.com/mileage-calculator.do

All those country girls in 63' in South and West Dallas, Irving, Oak Cliff, Cedar Hill, Coppell, Grapevine, none of them ever went off to SMU,TCU, UT, certainly none ever to an IVY League school.  Ruth was an ideologue in the woods babysitting the poor immigrant Marina? 

Regarding "World Peace", why did Ruth get kicked out of Nicaragua for asking questions, taking lot's of notes and being suspected of being a spy for the CIA?  Why did she get kicked off of what ever island it was they sent her to then for the same thing?

"Still Marina was kind and gentle and politely corrected Ruth's grammar". 

Then again Swathmore's not IVY league is it?

Ron,

I wasn't trying to be literal, but to express a social reality.  Ruth Paine was rare among liberally college educated women in Irving, Texas.  Her immediate neighbors were of little intellectual stimulation to her, as far as I've read.  Marina Oswald. OTOH, was truly interesting to Ruth Paine.

Marina Oswald was poor, and she was an immigrant -- but she was also college-educated.  Marina had a degree in pharmacology.  She also spoke Russian with almost perfect grammar, according to native Russian speakers.  Marina said she was raised by her grandmother, who had gone to a finishing school in Russia -- a rare privilege -- and who taught Marina aristocratic grammar.

Marina was bored to death as a proletarian in Minsk -- she wanted to get to the USA as fast as possible.   Lee Harvey Oswald was her ticket to ride.  In the USSR, Lee was well-off -- certainly he earned more money than Marina and her peers.  But in the USA, Lee could hardly hold down a minimum wage job.  (He had never held any job in the USA in his life, outside the military.  He had never before encountered workplace competition.)  Lee was a flop in the USA, as far as breadwinners go.

As for World Peace, Ruth Paine and Nicaragua -- here is my reading of the events.  Ruth Paine went to Nicaragua in February, 1991 as a Charity worker representing her Quaker Church.  It was a building project.   Ruth was responsible for the funds, so she made continual status reports of the progress, including photographs, for her Church bulletin. 

During that violent period in Nicaragua, the government pushed back violently at Catholic and other Church workers, and many volunteers -- including Americans -- were killed.  In the face of such violence, one of the terrified Church folks recognized that Ruth Paine had been connected to the Warren Commission hearings on the JFK assassination.  Fears and rumors spread like crazy, so that the Quaker Church asked Ruth to leave, so that matters could calm down.  Naturally, the disappointed Ruth complied with the Church leadership, and left Nicaragua in March 1991.

Probe Magazine in the 1990's tried to capitalize on the Nicaraguan rumors that Ruth Paine was in the CIA.   Rumors and gossip.

Finally, Ron, have you ever tried to learn a foreign language?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo

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2 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Ron,

...... as far as I've read.  

 

 

As for World Peace, Ruth Paine and Nicaragua -- here is my reading of the events.  Ruth Paine went to Nicaragua in February, 1991 as a Charity worker representing her Quaker Church.  It was a building project.   Ruth was responsible for the funds, so she made continual status reports of the progress, including photographs, for her Church bulletin. 

 

 

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul, what are you reading to come-up with this stuff? That is not a reading of events, it is fiction or it is not. Where are you extracting this data from? Would you care to share?

ill share something. I'll post where the item I am sharing comes from. In the article I'll share, sources are cited. 

"Later in life when Paine was on assignment in Nicaragua during the 1990s, she very briefly and opaquely opened up to a friend concerning the murder and her part in it:
 
There was, however, one occasion when the friend tried to bring up the assassination when Ruth began to say how sad she was that her daughter (then about 40) was estranged from her. Ruth said that her daughter told her that she refused to talk to her until “she came to grips with the evil that she had been associated with.” The friend said that Ruth had tears in her eyes when she said this and was certain that this was a veiled reference to the Kennedy assassination."
 
 
 
See how that works Paul? You can see that I am not making stuff up. One has to assume that you are making stuff up, unless you provide a source for what otherwise appears to be your own fiction.
 
Regards,
 
Michael
Edited by Michael Clark

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23 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

Paul, what are you reading to come-up with this stuff? That is not a reading of events, it is fiction or it is not. Where are you extracting this data from? Would you care to share?

ill share something. I'll post where the item I am sharing comes from. In the article I'll share, sources are cited. 

"Later in life when Paine was on assignment in Nicaragua during the 1990s, she very briefly and opaquely opened up to a friend concerning the murder and her part in it:
 
There was, however, one occasion when the friend tried to bring up the assassination when Ruth began to say how sad she was that her daughter (then about 40) was estranged from her. Ruth said that her daughter told her that she refused to talk to her until “she came to grips with the evil that she had been associated with.” The friend said that Ruth had tears in her eyes when she said this and was certain that this was a veiled reference to the Kennedy assassination."
 
 
See how that works Paul? You can see that I am not making stuff up. One has to assume that you are making stuff up, unless you provide a source for what otherwise appears to be your own fiction.
 
Regards,
Michael

Michael,

Your insulting attitude continues to chafe.  That's why I have (and will keep) your account on IGNORE.

Because Ron has not (yet) replied, I will answer one (and only one) post from you.

1.  My readings about Ruth Paine come from the entire Internet as well as books that I actually buy.  I make nothing up (although my memory is sometimes imperfect).

2.  You can read more about Ruth Paine and Nicaragua (and Pro-Nica, and the WCCN) in the excellent book by Thomas Mallon, Mrs. Paine's Garage (2001).

3.  That old story that you shared about Ruth Paine's daughter is also inside Thomas Mallon's book, Michael, and your hyperlink is more than 10 years behind the times.

4.  Thomas Mallon explains the situation better than your rumors-and-gossip hyperlink, anyway.  

5.  Ruth Paine's daughter was in Wicca at the time.  (Google that, if you don't know what it is.)  That's the appropriate explanation for her reference to "the evil."

See how that works, Michael?  They're called "books".  People actually buy them.  Anyway -- goodbye to your insulting attitude:

--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo

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There you go Mike.

Don't you read that incontinent fighter for truth in the JFK case, the novelist Thomas Mallon?  

You know, the guy who reviewed Bugliosi's Reclaiming History in The Atlantic?  He began the review by saying that he recalled spending an afternoon with Ruth, inside the garage where Oswald had hidden his rifle before he shot Kennedy.

How can you go wrong with Tom?

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38 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

There you go Mike.

Don't you read that incontinent fighter for truth in the JFK case, the novelist Thomas Mallon?  

You know, the guy who reviewed Bugliosi's Reclaiming History in The Atlantic?  He began the review by saying that he recalled spending an afternoon with Ruth, inside the garage where Oswald had hidden his rifle before he shot Kennedy.

How can you go wrong with Tom?

My selection was hasty. I am going to have to put together a selection of better research, for quick access, so they will be ready for Paul's ubuiquitous "Ruth "fluffs" butterflies"posts.

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