The latest from Ruth Paine

[Jeff Carter]

Michael Paine and backyard photos - his testimony in 1963/64 only acknowledges seeing a backyard photo at DPD headquarters on the night of the assassination (the photos would not be officially discovered until the following afternoon). Paine describes his first meeting with Oswald in April 1963 in extensive detail to the WC, but never discusses being shown a backyard photo at that time. Only in 1993 does Paine start to claim Oswald showed him a photo.

The “we know who is responsible” phone call happened at 1 PM on Nov 22/63, confirmed by the Paines and phone records. 

The information about the content of the call came from an Irving police officer who had been assigned to the phone company’s offices. Therefore the “tap” appears to have been located at the phone company.

Attributing the date of the phone call to November 23 (rather than 22) first appears in FBI documents from December 1963. 

[Paul Trejo]

On 7/21/2017 at 1:56 PM, James DiEugenio said:

There you go Mike.

Don't you read that incontinent fighter for truth in the JFK case, the novelist Thomas Mallon?  

You know, the guy who reviewed Bugliosi's Reclaiming History in The Atlantic?  He began the review by saying that he recalled spending an afternoon with Ruth, inside the garage where Oswald had hidden his rifle before he shot Kennedy.

How can you go wrong with Tom?

James,

The reason that I cite Thomas Mallon with some confidence in the context of the JFK assassination is because Ruth Paine herself recommended the book.  She reviewed it carefully before it went to press.

Now -- it is quite true that Thomas Mallon is a great novelist and not a historian.  This was one of the few excursions into US History for the talented Mr. Mallon.

Nevertheless, just because Mallon is famous for writing fiction is no reason to discount his ability to write US History.   IMHO, he does a splendid job in Mrs. Paine's Garage (2001).

In fact, I would say the book is brilliant.  I had neglected it until 2012 when I interviewed Ruth Paine over the telephone.  Here are my memoirs of that long interview, which involved many phone calls over a full month.

First, she interviewed me strictly, to test whether I was going to adopt a belligerent attitude from the start.  What did I think about the US Embassy Letter that she discovered inside one of Marina Oswald's personal books?

I expected this question, because she asked this same question of a previous interviewer at a Starbucks (IIRC) who reported his experience on a British website on JFK (IIRC).  Lucky for him, he had no problem with the USSR Embassy Letter, otherwise, Ruth was ready to walk at the outset.  In that report he broadcast to the world Ruth Paine's location.  That's how I got started.

So, I expected that question.  Lucky for me, I also have no problem with the USSR Letter.  I'd examined it closely for many weeks, and I'm convinced that it's authentic.  First base.

Then, Ruth Paine quizzed me.  Had I read every single page of her Warren Commission testimony, without exception?  There are four different interviews, and she was the single most interviewed WC witness -- by far -- with over 5,000 interview questions.   I had to admit that I had not read them all.

"Well, call me again when you've finished," she said, and that was the end of the first call.

So, I not only read all of her WC testimony immediately, but I made extensive notes, classified the notes, and made a Timeline of all of Ruth Paine's interactions with both Marina Oswald and Lee Harvey Oswald from February 22, 1963 through December 31, 1963.

So I called Ruth Paine again.  Her next question was whether I had read all her Jim Garrison testimony.   Yes I had.  OK, so, had I read all her FBI testimony?   Yes I had.  OK.  Had I seen all her online interviews on YouTube?  No, not all of them, I admitted.  "OK, call me again when you've finished," she said, and that was the end of the second call.

By our third call, she accepted me as an interviewer.  My very first question was about the Wiretapped Phone Call from 11/22/1963.  "What did you and Michael mean when you said, 'We both know who did it?'" I demanded.  It was the entire substance of my third call with Ruth Paine.

She admitted it occurred.  She admitted that Michael Paine said those words, exactly like that.  She also told me that she demanded to learn from the Warren Commission the source of that wire tap.  Who ordered the wire tap?  The FBI?  The local police?  The State Department?  Who?  They refused to divulge that secret.

"But what did you mean," I insisted?  Ruth Paine calmly explained that she and Michael were both impressed by the blatant appearance of the poster, WANTED FOR TREASON: JFK, all around Dallas public places.  (Before JFK was killed, Ruth Paine left Marina Oswald at home with the TV on as she went out for errands.)  

All over town -- at the doctor's office -- at checkout stands -- people were talking about the JFK parade in Dallas, but also about the WANTED FOR TREASON: JFK posters, as well as about the full page ad in the Dallas Morning News -- with a thick black-border, screaming, WELCOME, MR. KENNEDY, TO DALLAS -- WHY DO YOU HELP THE COMMUNISTS?

How blatant can a group of people be?  It was like announcing to Dallas that JFK deserved to die right there in Dallas.  It seemed that everybody was talking about it.

Anyway, said Ruth Paine, that is precisely what Michael Paine meant when he said, "We both know who did it."  He meant the political group in Dallas who was behind these scurrilous, public announcements.

"Are you sure," I pressed her.   The question remains too important to allow a superficial glance.  "Yes, I'm sure," was Ruth's reply.  "But what I really want to know," she continued, "is exactly who ordered that wire tap?"  That answer would shed considerable light on lots of issues, she insisted.

I noted to Ruth that her WC testimony often sounded like she was defending Lee Harvey Oswald (LHO).  Yes, she admitted, she could not believe that LHO acted alone in the JFK assassination.  (Robert Oswald said the same.)  She and Michael agreed on this point for many months.   The WC attorneys had to work long and hard to guide them toward the LN conclusion.  

Ruth told me that she's read a lot about the JFK assassination, and she hasn't yet read any CT that was satisfactory to her.  So she sticks with the LN theory.  Ruth  asked me if I'd read Bugliosi's book.  Yes, I said, and I added that I'm unimpressed with his logic -- he skips over too many vital facts.

"Who do you recommend," she asked me?   I asked if she'd read David Lifton's, Best Evidence (1980), and she admitted she had not.  I told her that this was, IMHO, the very best CT book in print.  Second IMHO would be the supporting documents by the ARRB, namely, Inside the Assassination Records Review Board (2009) by Douglas Horne.

Ruth wrote those titles down, and said she would look into them sometime.  

Note that I never developed a personal relationship with Ruth, so that I can just call her up anytime.  No Xmas cards, or anything like that.  My interview with Ruth Paine was, as I told her, a task within a US History course with well-known historian, H.W. Brands for a Spring, 2013 paper.  That's where we left it.

In the context of these memoirs I encountered the superb book by Thomas Mallon, Mrs. Paine's Garage (2001), which I heartily recommend to anybody seeking a bird's eye view over the US History nightmare suffered by Ruth Paine.    

One correction to Tom Mallon, however -- LHO didn't shoot JFK.  However, LHO did hand his rifle over to the shooters -- in my humble opinion -- so his hands were dirty.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited July 22, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[James DiEugenio]

Jeff:

Thanks for all that good information.

Let me ask you two questions:

1.)  How accurate is the info itself?  In other words, is that exactly what was said?

2.)  Is there any way to determine precisely what they were talking about?

 

[Ron Bulman]

Do I understand this right?  If the call was at 1:00 on 11/22 then the tap had to be in place prior to the assassination.   The Irving PD did not even at the behest of say the FBI start listening in on the suddenly suspicious Paine's phone conversations within 30 minutes of the shots.  Somebody was suspicious of the Paine's and or their association with Marina and Lee to justify monitoring the line.  Local small suburban police departments didn't do a lot of taps on their own at the time did they?  The Paine's weren't dope dealers or otherwise suspected of criminal activity at the time that I've ever read about.  Monitored because Oswald was a returned Communist defector, when he only came out on weekends?  HE wasn't monitored closely enough for anyone to know about the Beckley address where he stayed during the week. 

[Michael Clark]

2 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Do I understand this right?  If the call was at 1:00 on 11/22 then the tap had to be in place prior to the assassination.   The Irving PD did not even at the behest of say the FBI start listening in on the suddenly suspicious Paine's phone conversations within 30 minutes of the shots.  Somebody was suspicious of the Paine's and or their association with Marina and Lee to justify monitoring the line.  Local small suburban police departments didn't do a lot of taps on their own at the time did they?  The Paine's weren't dope dealers or otherwise suspected of criminal activity at the time that I've ever read about.  Monitored because Oswald was a returned Communist defector, when he only came out on weekends?  HE wasn't monitored closely enough for anyone to know about the Beckley address where he stayed during the week. 

The Paine's were in contact with the Oswalds since the spring of 63. There is no reason to think that they were not being surveilled from that time on. There are CIA, FBI, Mob, Industrial, Police and who knows what other intelligence entities whom might have been involved. Mr. Carter''s pointing out that Irving police are named as the source doesn't mean anything, no disrespect to Mr. Carter; I assume he is passing on information, and that he is not married to the idea that it was necessarily Irving police who tapped the call. Keep in mind that the other end of the call was the Fort Worth Bell Helicopter facility where Michael Paine worked. It seems too convenient that Irving Police had a man who was assigned to the telephone company and this info was generated therefrom. Any agency or entity could have asked the Irving police for cover in this matter.

Local PI's, extortionists, Mob, Confidential informants, as well as Government agencies could have had someone listening to all their calls, or have hopped on that line at anytime.

Assuming that there is something fishy about that call being monitored at 1PM on 11-22 is assuming that there was no reason to have an eye on LHO, Marina or the Paine's before that time.

I would be surprised if the mob, Bell Helicopter and all government agencies, including rogue elements were not tripping over themselves in manholes, on poles, in dusty phone-rooms with diverted pairs or at phone company buildings listening in on all of their calls.

To add a bit of humor, imagine a phone guy who was known to be "purchasable" , who just by serendipity, happened to have been approached by Jim Hosty, I. B. Hale, Howard, Hunt, Jack Ruby, H. L. Hunt, Holmes, Mrs. Paine, and and Mr. Paine,.. all individually paying one lucky phone-guy to tap that line. He would have collected 7 checks for one job, and no one should have been any-the-wiser.

ha-ha!

I am just trying to point-out that it could have been everyone,, everywhere, or anyone, anywhere that "ordered" it.

It had to be brought to the WC records, so we have an Irving Police officer, assigned to fill-out the story.

 

Edited July 23, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Larry Hancock]

Michael, I think we can do a lot better than that and it would actually take us somewhere. If you step back a bit from this and look at the bigger picture the tap (phone monitoring, which appears to have been put in place at the local CO and would likely have involved a recorder unless  you have agents there taking short hand when a call happens to come through) - then factor in Ron's point about the timing, you have the suggestion of an FBI instigated wire tap on the Paines (obviously not a local police thing and most likely justified as part of an FBI subversive investigation of Lee and possibly Marina, who would have been a legitimate target as much as Lee).  Hosty wrote that he had considered Marina more of a subversive target than Lee.  More importantly he told a Secret Service agent on the morning after the assassination that Lee had been observed meeting with subversives and those files would certainly be provided to the SS - it appears they never were.

I and others have been following investigations by SA Heitman and I will be summing up that work in a bit.  We have documents showing that he had been involved with a national level FBI subversive investigation of a possible Cuban G2 infiltrator, who lived at the House on Harlandale.  We know from records that the FBI had informants inside that house (as unreliable as they might be) and there is a very good likelihood the house was under physical surveillance.

We also know that the rest of Heitman's subversive files have been repeatedly denied to us in the face of FOIA requests. My guess is that  you don't have to wonder all over the place looking for why that phone was tapped and it has everything to do with both Lee and Marina and it was not brand new that afternoon. 

Edited July 23, 2017 by Larry Hancock

[Michael Clark]

20 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

Michael, I think we can do a lot better than that ....

Larry, I challenge you to come up with something better (funnier) than my phone-guy who hit the jackpot!

LOL

Thanks Larry, I am looking foreword, as always, to what you come up with.

[Michael Clark]

To be sure, it is my opinion that LHO didn't kill JFK; and any inquiry into LHO is a inquiry to distraction. The phone call between the Paine's is just another facet of which I have an opinion. It does not bring us closer to those responsible;. We are just tagging sheep. Tagging sheep is, however, part of the process.

Edited July 23, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Ron Bulman]

2 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

Michael, I think we can do a lot better than that and it would actually take us somewhere. If you step back a bit from this and look at the bigger picture the tap (phone monitoring, which appears to have been put in place at the local CO and would likely have involved a recorder unless  you have agents there taking short hand when a call happens to come through) - then factor in Ron's point about the timing, you have the suggestion of an FBI instigated wire tap on the Paines (obviously not a local police thing and most likely justified as part of an FBI subversive investigation of Lee and possibly Marina, who would have been a legitimate target as much as Lee).  Hosty wrote that he had considered Marina more of a subversive target than Lee.  More importantly he told a Secret Service agent on the morning after the assassination that Lee had been observed meeting with subversives and those files would certainly be provided to the SS - it appears they never were.

I and others have been following investigations by SA Heitman and I will be summing up that work in a bit.  We have documents showing that he had been involved with a national level FBI subversive investigation of a possible Cuban G2 infiltrator, who lived at the House on Harlandale.  We know from records that the FBI had informants inside that house (as unreliable as they might be) and there is a very good likelihood the house was under physical surveillance.

We also know that the rest of Heitman's subversive files have been repeatedly denied to us in the face of FOIA requests. My guess is that  you don't have to wonder all over the place looking for why that phone was tapped and it has everything to do with both Lee and Marina and it was not brand new that afternoon. 

I came across the Harlandale house by accident a few days ago looking for info regarding another thread.  I've read it was demolished within a year by a Dallas Co. real estate developer.   Deputy Buddy Walthers  said Somewhere, I Think, on November 23rd, 63, an informant of his reported Oswald had been seen in it.    

[Michael Clark]

15 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

I came across the Harlandale house by accident a few days ago looking for info regarding another thread.  I've read it was demolished within a year by a Dallas Co. real estate developer.   Deputy Buddy Walthers  said Somewhere, I Think, on November 23rd, 63, an informant of his reported Oswald had been seen in it.    

Ron, will you please share your info on the Harlandale house?

[Michael Clark]

Why do I feel that we are being drawn into a Dallas/Texas-centric conspiracy, all-around? It's like we have back-up forces to Trejo's Walker/DPD-do-it myth showing-up.

[Ron Bulman]

17 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

Ron, will you please share your info on the Harlandale house?

Yes, from what I've read it was a hotbed of anti Castro activity leading up to the assassination, possibly affiliated with A-66.  I thought maybe it came  from

https://www.amazon.com/Radical-Right-Murder-John-Kennedy/dp/1412040558/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1500791891&sr=1-1&keywords=the+radical+right+livingstone

but I can't find anything in it at the moment.

[James DiEugenio]

Not at all a Walker thing.  Alpha 66 was a CIA sponsored operation with Phillips having a major role.

But if Oswald was there is dicey since one of the people in the group looked like Oswald, as Larry can explain.

Its incredible that the WC or HSCA never got to the bottom of this phone tap:  what was the physical technique, when was it placed, why was it placed, and who gave the permission to do so?

The WC was a bad joke that gets sicker each day.

[Jeff Carter]

Here is the original FBI report:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57756#relPageId=51&tab=page

The information is presented as a summary , it is not a verbatim transcript. The date of the phone call is listed as November 23. Recently Ruth Paine,  as claimed by Paul Trejo, denied that Oswald’s name ever came up in this conversation. Otherwise the summary of the content of the call - “we both know who is responsible” - has never been challenged.

Here are the records of the Southwestern States Telephone Company which establishes the date of the call as November 22. Both Ruth and Michael Paine acknowledge they spoke on the phone, Michael calling from his Bell Helicopter office from the number listed in the FBI reports, at 1 PM that day. This call could not have been made the following day.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=57772#relPageId=127&tab=page

Here is the same information as it appeared in the FBI’s January 7, 1964 Gemberling Report. This Report was withheld from the Warren Commission.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10673#relPageId=71&tab=page

In the Gemberling Report the information is attributed, in place of Paul Barger, to “Confidential Informant Dallas T-4”. This designation would lead to the claims that this must be referring to a wiretap. For his part, Paul Barger told several differing versions in 1964 and later in 1975 of an “individual” from the phone company who provided the information. Additionally, Paul Barger was specifically requested by Ruth Paine when she showed up at the Irving Police headquarters in the weeks following the assassination to pass along pieces of evidence she had allegedly found inside Oswald belongings.

[Larry Hancock]

We have a number of incidents in which mail openings and telephone taps appear to have been designated  as "informants" and given a T designation,  it served as a nice disguise for those practices....especially if they were ongoing over a period of time. 

Ron, as to your comment about a Dallas- centric conspiracy,  there were a lot of things going on in Dallas and that was where the attack was set up so of course you will find tactical associations.  That does not mean the conspiracy started there or was driven from there.

And on the House on Harlandale, I write about it extensively in SWHT, not a new thing at all and neither are the weapons buying practices the FBI was intensely investigating.  When Oswald ended up in Dallas he was in the middle of a number of ongoing investigations  including weapons trafficing, arms thefts from the Terrell armory, the Mason sting - and he should have been on the FBI's subversive list since he was still being investigated as the head of an FPCC cell in NO.  Its certainly not unreasonable to think he was being monitored and even under surveillance by the FBI at many points.