The latest from Ruth Paine

[James DiEugenio]

So Jeff, what is your educated guess of the origins of the information?

Was it an FBI tap on the Paine phone line?  If so, it must have been before the assassination. If it was a tap, then the information has to be accurate.

And Ruth's current denying that Oswald's name was mentioned would have to be looked upon as revisionism.

 

 

[Paul Brancato]

I think it's a Dallas centered conspiracy, whether it originated there or not. 

[Jeff Carter]

An educated guess would place this as an FBI-directed tap on the Paine’s phone. The intended target may have been Marina Oswald. Extensive surveillance, including phone tap and room microphones, was admittedly directed at Marina in early 1964:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10098#relPageId=9&tab=page

Paul Barger reported that he “received information” (i.e. the Paine conversation) and that a “male voice was overheard”  (i.e. this conversation was listened to by either Barger or a phone company source, in real time or a recording). Internal FBI memo identifies source as “Confidential Informant Dallas T-4”, an identification known to refer to surveillance methods such as phone taps. Paul Barger would serve as an FBI intermediary with Ruth Paine as she discovered new evidence in Oswald belongings.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62437#relPageId=97&tab=page

Following the November 26 memo which describes the “male voice” speak of Oswald and “who is responsible” half an hour after the shots in Dealey Plaza and before JFK was announced dead, the handling of this information becomes rather muted. Michael Paine, for example, is not asked about the call for a whole month (http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10673#relPageId=72&tab=page). The FBI, and later the Warren Commission, treat this call as akin to a rumour and allow the mis-attributed date to inform Michael Paine’s denials. Paul Barger, for his part, would come up with several different unsatisfying stories about his “source” at the phone company.

However, it should also be noted that the FBI did conduct extensive investigation into the Paines and their background. And the Warren Commission lawyers would treat them with some suspicion. But the information from this phone call did not start any bells ringing - although the content could be interpreted as potentially explosive. This suggests the Paines were for some reason already cleared or above suspicion regarding the assassination per se, and the phone call itself was downplayed lest it reveal sources and methods or force the FBI to explain why friends and family of the “lone-nut” were being surveilled ahead of the assassination.

[James DiEugenio]

So was the FBI using Barger as a disguise for the FBI phone tap?  

If it was a tap, then the Paines mentioned Oswald.  

Was Oswald's name mentioned in the media at that time?

God what Liebeler and the WC did with this is a disgrace.

[Larry Hancock]

Well we do know that postal employees were used as covers for mail opening, described as informants instead.  You may be right, using the officer could have been simply a diversion, apparently it worked since no questions were asked...a disgrace indeed. 

[Sandy Larsen]

9 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Was Oswald's name mentioned in the media at that time?

 

According to this document:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10786#relPageId=106&tab=page

Ruth Paine said the call occurred at around 1:00 PM.

But it wasn't till 1:25 that Roy Truly gave Oswald's name, address, and description to Captain Fritz. And it wasn't till 1:55 PM that Oswald was apprehended at the theater. So there is no way the media (or Paines) would have known at 1:00 that Oswald was even a suspect.

So, if Ruth got the time even close to right, she and Michael must have been going only on reports of the shots coming from the TSBD. And for some reason assumed Oswald was the killer.

Why would the Paines assume it was Oswald who had killed Kennedy? I suppose because they knew it was the CIA who had gotten the job for him at the TSBD. They probably knew other things too. They put two and two together and figured out that that was the reason the CIA got that job for Oswald.

Or....

It could be that Ruth estimated the 1:00 time wrong, and that the time of the call was more like 2:00 or 2:30. (I assume that Oswald's name was in the news by then.) In which case the Paines needn't have assumed Oswald was the killer.

 

Edited July 24, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Paul Trejo]

On 7/22/2017 at 7:36 PM, Ron Bulman said:

Do I understand this right?  If the call was at 1:00 on 11/22 then the tap had to be in place prior to the assassination.   The Irving PD did not even at the behest of say the FBI start listening in on the suddenly suspicious Paine's phone conversations within 30 minutes of the shots.  Somebody was suspicious of the Paine's and or their association with Marina and Lee to justify monitoring the line.  Local small suburban police departments didn't do a lot of taps on their own at the time did they?  The Paine's weren't dope dealers or otherwise suspected of criminal activity at the time that I've ever read about.  Monitored because Oswald was a returned Communist defector, when he only came out on weekends?  HE wasn't monitored closely enough for anyone to know about the Beckley address where he stayed during the week. 

Bingo!

The wire tap of Ruth Paine's telephone had to be in place well before the JFK assassination.

Now, one might say that "somebody was suspicious of the Paines" to justify tapping their phone.

Or, one might say that somebody was setting up the Paines to frame them along with Lee Harvey Oswald.   That would be my opinion.

Who would do this?   Dallas FBI agent James Hosty and Dallas Secret Service agent Forrest Sorrels, perhaps; they had the means, the motive and the opportunity, IMHO.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited July 29, 2017 by Paul Trejo
clarity

[Paul Trejo]

On 7/24/2017 at 5:09 AM, Sandy Larsen said:

...So, if Ruth got the time even close to right, she and Michael must have been going only on reports of the shots coming from the TSBD. And for some reason assumed Oswald was the killer.

Why would the Paines assume it was Oswald who had killed Kennedy?

...It could be that Ruth estimated the 1:00 time wrong, and that the time of the call was more like 2:00 or 2:30. (I assume that Oswald's name was in the news by then.) In which case the Paines needn't have assumed Oswald was the killer.

Sandy,

In my recollection from conversations with Ruth Paine in December, 2015, I have the impression that Ruth was very worried about Lee's possible involvement in the JFK assassination when the news came over TV that the shots came from the TSBD building.

Upon that news, Ruth ran out to the backyard, where Marina was hanging baby diapers, and shouted out to her, "the shots came from the TSBD building!"  Then Ruth ran back inside to monitor the news.

It remains my impression that Ruth Paine did not like Lee Harvey Oswald very much.  There was one brief period of perhaps two weeks in late October, 1963, when Ruth's opinion began to change about Lee.  But when FBI James Hosty came to call in early November, Ruth's positive opinions went out the window again.

It was never Ruth's opinion that the FBI was interested in Marina Oswald.  Even though James Hosty told her that this was a routine call for foreign nationals -- meaning Marina -- Ruth was clear that Lee was the real target, because Hosty was asking direct questions about Lee.

Ruth believes in freedom of speech and press, so she was ready to defend Lee from accusations about his choice of reading material, for example.  That wasn't the issue.  The issue was that Lee held this negative, rebellious attitude about the FBI -- and there was no need for that, as Ruth saw it.

Nor was Lee really a Red.  Michael's father was a Red, and he had class.  Coming from the East Coast, the Paines knew their fair share of Reds.  A genuine Red, they knew, was a member of this or that Party, and worked continually under the directions of that Party, and had regular meetings with them.  Not Lee Harvey Oswald.

Lee was a maverick, a loner, a rebel without a cause.  He liked to put on a show, but on the weekends at Ruth Paine's house, Lee Harvey Oswald was glued to the TV, watching sports, like most other blokes.

Still, Lee liked to prod and poke people about the fact that some people earn a lot more money than other people -- and that some people can afford two or three cars (like the Paines) and some did not even know how to drive (like Lee). 

Plus there was that whole arrest in New Orleans regarding the Fair Play for Cuba Committee -- so much grandstanding.  Lee Harvey Oswald was unpredictable.

Why would the FBI come around asking about Lee?

So, when JFK was actually killed in Dallas, and the TV mentioned the TSBD, Ruth actually did break out in a sweat at that point.   That's what I recall from our conversations -- and from all her truckloads of testimony and interviews.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited August 4, 2017 by Paul Trejo
2015

[James DiEugenio]

In other words, the one o'clock time is an estimate.  There is no official time stamp on the call. And the WC never tried to find the time stamp.

How the WC never got to the bottom of this is simply amazing.  Now, we have to try and do this from an incomplete record.

If the call was at one PM, that is really interesting.  And it explains why Liebeler gave Mike Paine an out.

Actually that is too mild.  Good ole Wesley escorted Mike up to the door to the back alley and told him to run down there.

Edited July 24, 2017 by James DiEugenio

[Michael Clark]

17 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

In other words, the one o'clock time is an estimate.  There is no official time stamp on the call. 

If there is no exact time stamp, that would point away from a legit tap by an Irving Police assigned telco cop working legally with the phone company. 

I wonder if an Irving to Ft. Worth call was a toll call at the time.

[James DiEugenio]

Not necessarily.

What I means is what I said above.  The WC never pushed Hoover to find out what the time stamp was.

Which was par for the course for them most of the time.

[Paul Trejo]

On ‎7‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 2:48 PM, James DiEugenio said:

In other words, the one o'clock time is an estimate.  There is no official time stamp on the call. And the WC never tried to find the time stamp.

How the WC never got to the bottom of this is simply amazing.  Now, we have to try and do this from an incomplete record.

If the call was at one PM, that is really interesting.  And it explains why Liebeler gave Mike Paine an out.

Actually that is too mild.  Good ole Wesley escorted Mike up to the door to the back alley and told him to run down there.

James,

I think the Warren Commission deliberately underplayed this important wire-tapping incident, because: (1) they knew they had nothing substantial on the Paines; and (2) the wire-tapping was strictly illegal, and so if they pushed any harder, they would need to name the one who ordered the wire-tap, and that person would need to be arrested.

(And if they arrested Dallas FBI agent James Hosty and/or Dallas SS agent Forrest Sorrels, the public scandal would have overwhelmed all further WC proceedings.)

So, why did the WC even raise the issue in the first place?   IMHO, the reason is the same reason that they raised any issue -- because the public had already heard about it, and the WC needed some answer for the public.  (This is openly admitted in the 1964 single-volume Warren Report, e.g. the section on the Dallas Right-wing.)

In my humble opinion, the call was made soon after 2pm, when the radio named Lee Harvey Oswald, because that was the only reason that Michael Paine sped to Ruth Paine's house (they were separated at this time) so soon after the JFK assassination.   By the time Michael arrived, the Dallas and Irving police were already inside the house.

I would guess that Michael Paine called Ruth Paine from his office at Bell Helicopter, immediately before he rushed to her house in Irving, Texas.

If this is correct, then we might estimate the time of the Paine's wire-tapped phone call by using two factors: (1) the time it takes to drive from Bell Helicopter Corporation to the home of Ruth Paine in Irving, Texas; and (2) the time of the arrival of the Dallas Police to the home of Ruth Paine in Irving, Texas.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited July 28, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[David Andrews]

15 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

James,

I think the Warren Commission deliberately underplayed this important wire-tapping incident, because: (1) they knew they had nothing substantial on the Paines; and (2) the wire-tapping was strictly illegal, and so if they pushed any harder, they would need to name the one who ordered the wire-tap, and that person would need to be arrested.

(And if they arrested Dallas FBI agent James Hosty and/or Dallas SS agent Forrest Sorrels, the public scandal would have overwhelmed all further WC proceedings.)

 

 

Just a general thought, for all JFK assassination circumstances and researchers:

Is it worth comparing the legal and investigative effort put into the 1950 attempted assassination of Harry Truman, and the shooting of several police officers thereupon?

This is not strictly apropos of Paul's post.

Edited July 27, 2017 by David Andrews

[Paul Trejo]

On 7/23/2017 at 1:51 PM, Jeff Carter said:

An educated guess would place this as an FBI-directed tap on the Paine’s phone. The intended target may have been Marina Oswald. Extensive surveillance, including phone tap and room microphones, was admittedly directed at Marina in early 1964:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10098#relPageId=9&tab=page

Paul Barger reported that he “received information” (i.e. the Paine conversation) and that a “male voice was overheard”  (i.e. this conversation was listened to by either Barger or a phone company source, in real time or a recording). Internal FBI memo identifies source as “Confidential Informant Dallas T-4”, an identification known to refer to surveillance methods such as phone taps. Paul Barger would serve as an FBI intermediary with Ruth Paine as she discovered new evidence in Oswald belongings.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=62437#relPageId=97&tab=page

Following the November 26 memo which describes the “male voice” speak of Oswald and “who is responsible” half an hour after the shots in Dealey Plaza and before JFK was announced dead, the handling of this information becomes rather muted. Michael Paine, for example, is not asked about the call for a whole month

(http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10673#relPageId=72&tab=page).

The FBI, and later the Warren Commission, treat this call as akin to a rumour and allow the mis-attributed date to inform Michael Paine’s denials. Paul Barger, for his part, would come up with several different unsatisfying stories about his “source” at the phone company.

However, it should also be noted that the FBI did conduct extensive investigation into the Paines and their background. And the Warren Commission lawyers would treat them with some suspicion. But the information from this phone call did not start any bells ringing - although the content could be interpreted as potentially explosive. This suggests the Paines were for some reason already cleared or above suspicion regarding the assassination per se, and the phone call itself was downplayed lest it reveal sources and methods or force the FBI to explain why friends and family of the “lone-nut” were being surveilled ahead of the assassination.

Jeff,

That's a good summary of the research as it stands to this point.

What researchers have missed, IMHO, is Jeff Caufield's theory of a Radical Right CT in the JFK assassination.   With this CT, we identify many in Dallas with radical right-wing politics inside the Dallas FBI, the Dallas Secret Service, the Dallas Post Office, the Dallas Police and the Dallas Sheriff's office.

Then, all of them are linked underneath the Dallas branches of the John Birch Society, led by such rightist leaders as Ex-General Walker, H.L. Hunt and many others.  Of these, Ex-General Walker was the most flamboyant and likely to push the river in Dallas.

From this viewpoint, the Paines were wire-tapped shortly before the JFK assassination in an effort to blame the Communists for the JFK assassination.  Lee Harvey Oswald was already framed as a Red, and an effort was underway to frame the Paines as Reds.  

This is why, for example, Dallas Deputy Buddy Walthers claimed that he found "six or seven metal filing cabinets full of the names of Castro supporters in the Paine's garage."   Nobody else ever saw these, registered these or photographed these.

This, IMHO, was one more attempt by the Dallas Sheriff's department to frame the Paines as Red along with Lee Harvey Oswald.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

Edited July 30, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Ron Bulman]

On ‎7‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 3:10 PM, Michael Clark said:

If there is no exact time stamp, that would point away from a legit tap by an Irving Police assigned telco cop working legally with the phone company. 

I wonder if an Irving to Ft. Worth call was a toll call at the time.

FWIW most likely.  A call from Grapevine into the 70's to Irving was long distance.  The Dallas / Tarrant County line was the point of demarcation.  Southwestern Bell controlled one, General Telephone (GTE) the other.  So Michaels call to Ruth in 63 from Hurst to Irving would have been long distance, though I don't see the relevance.