Sandy Larsen Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 28 minutes ago, David Josephs said: Who do you think LEON was at Odio's door? LEE -- LEON -- LEONOV... Harvey impersonators all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Who next? LEE -- LEON -- LEONOV -- LEONOVICH -- LEONOVICHSKY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Hi David, well for one thing I've never been absolutely certain of the timing of the Odio visit so I still hold it possible that it was Lee Oswald at her place. For that matter I'm not sure they had not had prior contact as part of an assignment for Oswald to circulate among exiles looking for guns in Dallas. I find it a little hard to accept that a one time visit would be enough to make her pass out and end up in the hospital. While I suspect Oswald was in MC, at least for a time, I'm also not certain of the exact dates there nor of his travel. If I were pressed I'd say I think Oswald was in contact with Odio, one or more times and that the visit did happen with Lee somehow a part of it. I'm less sanguine that it occurred exactly as I wrote about it in SWHT than I was then although I still believe her visitors had come from New Orleans, most likely with the two individuals originating in Miami - and that it indicates Oswald was having a number of contact with people that we can only speculate on but that he certainly was known to a number of folks who lied about it afterwards. So, I mentally have Oswald in contact with Odio, with a variety of other exiles in both New Orleans and Dallas - most all of whom were shopping for weapons and talking paramilitary action while a couple were claiming to be Cuban agents. I also have a picture of him not at all understanding all their agendas or how much at risk he was throughout that fall. As to Mexico City, I can seen him there but not at all in sync with the official timeline and story. And for that matter questions asked during the first interviews with Marina indicate that the possible trips to both DC and the trip to MC...and to me corroborate Nagell's info..but that's another story. It seems like after this time I should be more certain about such things but while I think I can see the overall picture I get less and less certain of many of the details the more I learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 (edited) LEE -- LEON -- LEONOV -- LEONOVICH -- LEONOVICHSKY -- HARVEYOVICHSKY -- HARVEYOVICH -- HARVEYOV -- HARVEY -- HARV I'll go away now. Edited May 22, 2017 by Sandy Larsen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Larry - Thanks for your thoughts on this... I have a different view of the trip of course... One last point... Hoover's handwritten notation about CIA double dealing regarding Oswald's trip to Mexico... Given the FBI reports from Nov 1963 all stating no evidence for Oswald anywhere in Mexico, AND knowing Mystery man was not Oswald AND the fact that so much of the Mexico Evidence was acquired by locals on the 22nd only to be funneled thru one person, one of the FBI's top Mexican Government assets... AND the rifle that was supposedly at Magazine street somehow winds up in and out of the Paine garage - sight unseen. It almost appears that the FBI is hiding the fact he didn't go by offering up evidence which is so shoddy on its face. I think Oswald was traveling, in and around Dallas, and then in Dallas itself on the 4th of Oct. After a week with no contact, Marina supposedly hung up on him when he asked her to ask Ruth for a ride home. There'd be no reason for Oswald to go to Mexico City and NOT leave tell tale signs of this trip - if that was the point. the evidence does not bear this out... Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said: LEE -- LEON -- LEONOV -- LEONOVICH -- LEONOVICHSKY -- HARVEYOVICHSKY -- HARVEYOVICH -- HARVEYOV -- HARVEY -- HARV I'll go away now. Here you go Sandy... a name you WILL find interesting. Look for Esquire article... related to Tippit murder... maybe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Hume Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 (edited) “Igor Vladimirs Vaganov” anagrams to: “MR VV RAN SILVIA ODIO GAG” According to my highly subjective puzzle information, the Silvia Odio gag happened on September 24 and was designed by Richard Case Nagell (who intentionally took himself out several days before). Leon O, Leopoldo, and, Angelo, were Lee Oswald, Igor Vladimirs Vaganov, and, David Atlee Phillips. The Odio incident is a major topic of the 88 puzzles contained in Oswald’s Historic Diary - it is puzzle number 24. A few puzzles suggest that the S Odio incident was one of Richard Case Nagell’s trade marks. For example, “Micro Dots” anagrams to: “RC ‘TM’: S ODIO” “Micro Dots” is in Oswald’s address book on the “J” page, which is page #24. “J” translates to the number “9”, hence, just one indication of this date, “9/24”. Working strictly from the puzzles, the purpose for the Odio incident is not clear to me, but I think it was a sting of some sort against Phillips. I also think that “Igor Vladimirs Vaganov” is a made-up name, and from at least 1960 thru 1963, the person, IVV, was Oswald’s double, he was the H&L people’s “Lee”, and he was working with LHO and RCN, not against them. "Igor Vladimirs Vaganov" anagrams to: "A LO DRIVING ORGASM, A IVV" (Downtown Lincoln Mercury gag) Here’s another “Igor Vladimirs Vaganov” anagram: “R’S VIVID ANAGRAM LOGO: IV” All very subjective so far. There's a little more of my take on Vaganov at the end of the link below: Sorry, I might not fall into the "Critically-minded member" category. Tom Edited May 23, 2017 by Tom Hume Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 David, the Hoover memo has long fascinated me. It may be as simple as Hoover being bitter about how much time Phillips and the CIA wasted by touting the Gilberto Alverado story - which the FBI finally deconstructed after a ton of field work. The FBI also spent a lot of time chasing down leads of others that Oswald reputedly contacted in and around the Cuban consulate and that is documented. Hoover really got irate when he thought FBI resources were being wasted by other agencies. A related issue would be the handling of Tumbleweed where the CIA dumped the whole thing on the FBI and it appears the FBI may have blown it. The FBI has never had a good reputation for sharing with other agencies, not then and certainly not as recently as 2001. But I can imagine how mad Hoover would have been if he learned Oswald had not been there at all. I'll certainly say that if it were possible to totally prove Oswald had never gone to MC at all I would not be shocked, but I do think at the time of his reported visit the CIA was surely reacting as if he were there....and that something complex was going on. Which might simply mean something compartmentalized but which became a major problem after the assassination. It would not be the first time counter intelligence played that sort of game and screwed up the Agency in doing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 (edited) On 5/22/2017 at 4:08 PM, Larry Hancock said: David, the Hoover memo has long fascinated me. It may be as simple as Hoover being bitter about how much time Phillips and the CIA wasted by touting the Gilberto Alverado story - which the FBI finally deconstructed after a ton of field work. The FBI also spent a lot of time chasing down leads of others that Oswald reputedly contacted in and around the Cuban consulate and that is documented. Hoover really got irate when he thought FBI resources were being wasted by other agencies. A related issue would be the handling of Tumbleweed where the CIA dumped the whole thing on the FBI and it appears the FBI may have blown it. The FBI has never had a good reputation for sharing with other agencies, not then and certainly not as recently as 2001. But I can imagine how mad Hoover would have been if he learned Oswald had not been there at all. I'll certainly say that if it were possible to totally prove Oswald had never gone to MC at all I would not be shocked, but I do think at the time of his reported visit the CIA was surely reacting as if he were there....and that something complex was going on. Which might simply mean something compartmentalized but which became a major problem after the assassination. It would not be the first time counter intelligence played that sort of game and screwed up the Agency in doing so. I took these as a good indication that Hoover understood Oswald was not there during the time in question. The Alvarado story does make a little sense, yet in my mind, Alvarado is not enough of an incentive for Hoover to cover the CIA's butt by creating fake travel documents/history with his Mexican assets... and Alvarado didn't show up for a couple days... the Presidential "guard" - Arturo Bosch being the Frontera related one - was at the 4 bus line office in both north and south Mexico... FBI even claimed it was the ANAHUAC line that Oswald arrived on... These reports thought, didn't make the final report or were even in consideration it appears. Finally, if it was Oswald... both the hotel registry and Visa are terribly incorrect. The Visa application was for a 6 month visa for Harvey Oswald Lee. The hotel registry is signed "Lee, Harvey Oswald"... exactly the same as the mismatched VISA. It was from there that I began my journey... always good hearing from you Larry. DJ ps - if Odio is not enough... any thoughts on this proof? Wasn't Oswald spotted in Dallas at the shooting on the 28th of Sept? Edited January 3, 2018 by David Josephs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 3 hours ago, David Josephs said: Here you go Sandy... a name you WILL find interesting. Look for Esquire article... related to Tippit murder... maybe Interesting. Thanks David. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Very interesting document David, I had never seen that one. In terms of Oswald sightings there are several that seem to be a problem in regard to the official time line. And again, I'm not totally comfortable with the Odio's dates so that makes it more complex for me. But something inolving an individual named Oswald and using Oswald FPCC documents did happen in MC, That was not created after the fact...it certainly did involve some level of impersonation so you have to ask yourself why would that happen if it was the real Oswald following some directions or even acting on his own. Which leaves you with some strange CIA counter espionage effort with the real Oswald back in the states, maybe in Dallas, Houston, at McKewons etc. Now if Nov. 22 had not happened would that have been any real problem - maybe not. Could CIA CI steal an identity for some short time frame operation in MC, sure they could and maybe they did and then after the fact traces of a real person had to be planted. Who planted the contradictory and questionable stuff you mention? Did CIA operatives do it, quickly and poorly and the FBI just found what they left? Is that why it looks so stupid? As I said, it would be no shock to me if he were not there....at this point its just going to take something new to fully knock me off the fence to one side or the other...worse yet I might still be on the fence with him there but not doing what the official story says... I'll keep watching... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk Gallaway Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 (edited) . Just to flesh out some of these characters to those who may have never seen them.In the Frontline documentary "Who was Lee Harvey Oswald" which was spotty,had good witnesses and bad with motives to deceive, the case is made for Oswald visiting MC, and chronicling what he did. Starting around 1:40, it starts the speculation when you have Anthony Summers interviewing the Odio's about the visit, then a segment with Posner questioning the time of the visit. At 1:44 you have the accounts of the Australian women, Patricia Winston who claim to have seen Oswald on the bus.1:46 interview with Sylvia Duran,146:50 interview with the 3 KGB agents who claimed to have seen Oswald(.Nechorporenko,and Kostikov.) 1:50 you have Helms repudiating Win Scott's alleged pictures.Scott produces tapes to authorities scratchy and unclear. The 3 KGB agents and Duran repudiate fake photo of Oswald entering embassy, and reaffirm that who they saw was Oswald. The segment ends around 1:55. https://youtu.be/-cLvrkqZxdc Edited May 23, 2017 by Kirk Gallaway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 (edited) On 5/22/2017 at 6:51 PM, Larry Hancock said: Very interesting document David, I had never seen that one. In terms of Oswald sightings there are several that seem to be a problem in regard to the official time line. And again, I'm not totally comfortable with the Odio's dates so that makes it more complex for me. But something inolving an individual named Oswald and using Oswald FPCC documents did happen in MC, That was not created after the fact...it certainly did involve some level of impersonation so you have to ask yourself why would that happen if it was the real Oswald following some directions or even acting on his own. Which leaves you with some strange CIA counter espionage effort with the real Oswald back in the states, maybe in Dallas, Houston, at McKewons etc. Now if Nov. 22 had not happened would that have been any real problem - maybe not. Could CIA CI steal an identity for some short time frame operation in MC, sure they could and maybe they did and then after the fact traces of a real person had to be planted. Who planted the contradictory and questionable stuff you mention? Did CIA operatives do it, quickly and poorly and the FBI just found what they left? Is that why it looks so stupid? As I said, it would be no shock to me if he were not there....at this point its just going to take something new to fully knock me off the fence to one side or the other...worse yet I might still be on the fence with him there but not doing what the official story says... I'll keep watching... Larry, That's actually a composite of 4 or 5 documents showing the FBI search for Oswald after the fact... IMO Hoover knew Oswald was not there, but for some reason covered the CIA's butt. Not sure if you've taken the time to read thru the 6 chapters I did on the Mexico City Travel evidence at CTKA/Kings.... https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/mexico-city-part-2-the-trip-down-part-1 From what I can tell, no on e has looked at the travel as opposed to the time in MC. There are thousands of docs spread out all over the WCDocs with no rhyme or reason. So I organized them. The first thing I did for this writing project was to acquire the documents and put them in chronological order... Who knew what , when and how. What I found was that all the evidence the FBI finally used to place Oswald here or there was funneled thru one man in Mexico City... the #2 man at Gobernacion had his hands on virtually everything... with comments by those who were aware that he added notes and made changes to the FM-11 (master list of Tourist Visas from the border) Everything the FBI got were COPIES of items from this man... he is even the source for the ARTURO BOSCH altered FRONTERA bus manifest which he changed to match the needed departure date and time. Under Hoover's signature, this "accepted evidence for how Oswald left MC was later found to not work with the bus schedule and Oswald being in Dallas on Oct 3. This is just the tip of the iceberg Larry... the FBI was very detailed in their charade here... the physical evidence does come from the locations offered... just not related to a man named Oswald. (The McFarlands and the Australian girls are provable plants used to place Oswald on a bus and nothing more. I can only suggest you wade thru the work I did... The FBI's story falls apart with the same gusto is was cobbled together Cheers DJ WCD 78 p1 tells us that by Nov 23th the FBI had information that the Mexican Officials were able to find and relay information from the “official records” of the Mexican Government which they had been alerted to no later than the early morning of Nov 23rd. A few pages later the FBI tells us that according to their Mexican confidential sources, Oswald was on the Transportes Frontera bus #340 leaving at 1pm Oct 2nd. This information not only turns out to be wrong but specifically created by a Mexican Presidential Staff Official Arturo Bosch in front of the bus line personnel. (Part 3 will delve deeper into the evidence related to Mr. Bosch) Edited September 11, 2017 by David Josephs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddy Bainbridge Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, David Josephs said: Larry, That's actually a composite of 4 or 5 documents showing the FBI search for Oswald after the fact... IMO Hoover knew Oswald was not there, but for some reason covered the CIA's butt. Not sure if you've taken the time to read thru the 6 chapters I did on the Mexico City Travel evidence at CTKA/Kings.... https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/mexico-city-part-2-the-trip-down-part-1 Hi David , I thought your writing on the Mexico travel story was fantastic and persuaded me the official story was concocted. I am not persuaded yet that Oswald didn't go to MC. If the 'Poor man Oswald' is replaced with the 'CIA supported Oswald' I don't think rapid travel from MC to the Dallas area is inconceivable , even in the 60's? Edited May 23, 2017 by Eddy Bainbridge Don't know what I'm doing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Eddy Bainbridge said: Hi David , I thought your writing on the Mexico travel story was fantastic and persuaded me the official story was concocted. I am not persuaded yet that Oswald didn't go to MC. If the 'Poor man Oswald' is replaced with the 'CIA supported Oswald' I don't think rapid travel from MC to the Dallas area is inconceivable , even in the 60's? Thanks for the kind words Eddy... That was part 1... only 4 more parts for you to go... There is no doubt that "an Oswald" could have been flown into Mexico by "Ferrie" for example. Yet we understand that Goodpasture conjures up Oswald on Oct 8th for reasons OTHER than the photo of the man, or the voice of the man was Oswald. All the proof that tries to put Oswald with Duran actually conflicts rather than supports him being there. My POV was that the FBI is forced to cover for the CIA due to Oswald being on a FBI mission at the time. The CIA put Oswald down there with the Oct 10 memo to FBI/State/Navy. Hoover ultimately tells LBJ "there was a second man down there using his name" rather than "Our Oswald was not there". It is my POV that Hoover covers for the CIA here to cover his own skin. IF I am right and Oswald was at Odio's as I suspect... Hoover's FBI had to cover for them after Nov 22nd otherwise an FBI asset is connected to the JFK assassination. Hoover would not allow that... so with the help of an amazing asset, they create, then recreate the evidence getting Oswald from here to there.... Don't you suppose if anyone wanted a paper trail for Oswald going to MC all they'd need is a bus ticket. lol So one question is whether or not Oswald and Mexico City really had anything to do with each other.... I think the person OSWALD had little if anything to do with OSWALD the man GOODPASTURE created... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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