Sandy Larsen Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 6 hours ago, David Josephs said: On 6/26/2017 at 3:25 PM, Sandy Larsen said: Either the real Oswald went on this trip, or a fake Oswald went in his place. That is simply not what the evidence bears out... David, The context for that statement I made seven months ago was speculation on my part -- a theory -- that the CIA plotters wanted to create evidence of a road trip to Mexico City with Oswald supposedly being one of the passengers. I mean, why would the CIA create the fake consulate appearances, the twist party, the $6500 payoff, Kostikov, but not a fake way for Oswald to travel there and back? And I was saying that the easiest way of creating evidence for the road trip would be to have a real road trip. Your reply to this is "That is simply not what the evidence bears out...". How do you know that? If you see no evidence of the road trip. that doesn't mean it didn't happen. A road trip implies conspiracy, given that Oswald couldn't drive. And the FBI wasn't interested in investigating anything that implied conspiracy. So there should be no surprise that there is no road trip evidence in the records. 6 hours ago, David Josephs said: What I've been trying to say from the start is if ANYONE wanted to leave breadcrumbs for a simple Oswald trip to Mexico City... it was easily done with a 4 part ticket from New Orleans... that did not happen. My theory is that the CIA plotters wanted the FBI to conclude there was a conspiracy. Not that Oswald was on his own, taking a bus. So while it may have been easier to have a fake Oswald buy a 4- part bus ticket, that is not the picture the plotters were trying to paint. They were trying to paint a conspiracy. (According to my theory.) 6 hours ago, David Josephs said: At every checkpoint along the way the EVIDENCE painstakingly shoe horns Oswald into some strange process to get him from point A to B. It is becoming apparent to me that not only was an Oswald not on any of these buses... no car, train or plane either. Why not a car? Do you think the FBI was looking for a car? I don't. I think they were ignoring cars. 6 hours ago, David Josephs said: Basically every single day from 11/23 on the evidence for the trip morphs and accommodates the places we are sure Oswald popped up... Yeah, the FBI was fabricating evidence on the fly. They wanted evidence of Oswald alone on a bus. It wasn't there, so they invented it. 6 hours ago, David Josephs said: ---------- One of the most secret of assets (despite Luis ECHEVARRIA also being an asset within the Gobernacion) provides every item of Mexican evidence to the FBI after many of them are secured by "Presidential staff" within hours of the assassination. This "staff" goes immediately to the 4 bus lines and "borrows" the manifests and paperwork for Sept 26 - Oct 3.... In this FBI asset's hands is the Oswald tourist card, altered FM-11, Hotel Registry, Frontera manifest that BOSCH altered, manifest for delo Norte, ANAHUAC and Flecha Rojas.... I have yet to find his name in the NEW RELEASE... but I will de writing about him and what he perpetrated for the FBI... Column 16 is the notes section... the image I have of it does not yet have the comments... Worse yet is HARVEY CASH of the State Dept who sends off info on the 23rd of Nov seems to be aware of every aspect of the evidence as dictated by the FM-11 - which, as I just mentioned, was "altered" for clarity and assistance by our FBI asset... At this point Sandy - it's very hard to attach the evidence offered to a real person... there is NO United States EVIDENCE of this trip... yet they were able to find virtually every other person who traveled in and out of Mexico those days... except Oswald... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 15 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said: Your reply to this is "That is simply not what the evidence bears out...". How do you know that? If you see no evidence of the road trip. It's not that there is no evidence of the road trip Sandy... it's that the evidence of the road trip is not authentic... it doesn't work and conflicts itself. As you state, the PLAN initially is to implicate Castro to either successfully invade Cuba or curtail the investigation into Mexico and the connections. We have detailed information about virtually everyone who passed thru Mexico during that time, except Oswald... As poor as the "Mexican records" are supposed to be, they had no problem pointing out scores of witnesses to OSWALD... only to be found out for the frauds they were after the fact. As for the car trip with or without others.... if we do not agree that our Oswald was in Dallas at the Odio's... we should stop here. His traveling with these men and doing what Odio said they were doing is exactly in line with what an FBI infiltration asset would be doing... but after the 22nd it sure looks bad for the FBI that their asset was so involved with these anti-JFK factions. Finally, akin to there not being ANY records of Oswald ordering/receiving/using the rifle at the time it occurs - only after 11/22; there is nothing related to Oswald in the reports and summaries of the time period. One may expect to see mention of an American talking to KOSTIKOV in a summary report of activity for Sept 1963 ?? But there isn't any... and this repeats over and over in this case... after the fact evidence does not jive with the events and records of the time period.. Here are over 20 FBI agents and FBI assets at the Gobernacion (where the evidence finally comes from) stating no trace of Oswald DOUBLE AGENTS LITAMIL-7 & 9 are repeated asked about Oswald... neither says he was there. Nor would there be any reason for him to be there in the first place... He did not need to go to CUBA to get to USSR... He did not need to go to Mexico for any reason at all... it was planned most likely by Phillips... which appears to be why the LITAMIL evidence had not been seen... We are also to remember that despite DURAN's discussion about the 27th, the records don't get into calls until the 28th since they knew the 27th was not Oswald.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 11 hours ago, David Josephs said: On 2/1/2018 at 4:58 PM, Sandy Larsen said: Your reply to this is "That is simply not what the evidence bears out...". How do you know that? If you see no evidence of the road trip. It's not that there is no evidence of the road trip Sandy... it's that the evidence of the road trip is not authentic... it doesn't work and conflicts itself. David, I get the feeling that we are talking past each other. Let me just tell you what I believe, and then I'll ask you a couple of questions. First, when I postulate about a "road trip," I'm talking specifically about a trip by private car. One where the plotters intended for investigators (the FBI) to discover Oswald had been on board. Regardless of whether or not he really was on board. Second, I have no opinion on whether it was Oswald (the man killed by Ruby) who was at Odio's. So, I believe that MAYBE Oswald was in MC at the time, or maybe he wasn't. What I don't believe is that he visited the consulates and talked to Duran and Azcue. Now, here is my two questions: Are you aware of any evidence for that road trip BY CAR to MC? And if so, is that evidence inauthentic? (I ask these questions because, according to what you said and what I highlighted in red above, your answer to both these questions appears to be YES. And that surprises me.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 Yes of course I'm aware of it... I found most of it... Oswald was not in Mexico so no, that evidence is part of the CIA charade.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 On 5/22/2017 at 3:27 PM, Larry Hancock said: Hi David, well for one thing I've never been absolutely certain of the timing of the Odio visit so I still hold it possible that it was Lee Oswald at her place. For that matter I'm not sure they had not had prior contact as part of an assignment for Oswald to circulate among exiles looking for guns in Dallas. So, I mentally have Oswald in contact with Odio, with a variety of other exiles in both New Orleans and Dallas - most all of whom were shopping for weapons and talking paramilitary action while a couple were claiming to be Cuban agents. I also have a picture of him not at all understanding all their agendas or how much at risk he was throughout that fall. It seems like after this time I should be more certain about such things but while I think I can see the overall picture I get less and less certain of many of the details the more I learn. I'm going to go back to this post Larry Hancock made in 2017. Is it possible that the real Lee Harvey Oswald did go to Mexico City, and while he was there the CIA used him for something else? Is it possible that Hoover felt he had been set up and that he was pissed, and that is why he said that the voice on the tape didn't match the person they were interrogating? Hoover could easily have gone along and said, "Yep. That's him", but he didn't. Above all things, maintaining the FBI's reputation as the premier investigatory agency was Hoover's main priority. I think they had a sign over their door that read, "Above everything else, don't make the Agency look bad". I think the CIA tried to use Oswald while he was down there in MC and when the assassination happened, it blew up in their faces. They did their best to hide the fact that he had been there - with missing photos, and cameras that mysteriously failed to operate on those specific days, etc. Is anyone aware of a running guns to Cuba scheme going on in late September, 1963 coming out of Mexico that Oswald was trying to infiltrate? It seems to me that is how Oswald was being used in August and September, 1963. Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, David Josephs said: Yes of course I'm aware of it... I found most of it... Oswald was not in Mexico so no, that evidence is part of the CIA charade.... David, I'm pretty sure you are not paying close attention to what I'm writing. Here is our most recent exchange: Sandy: Are you aware of any evidence for that road trip BY CAR to MC? David: Yes of course I'm aware of it... I found most of it... So what you are saying here is that you found most the evidence of a road trip BY CAR to Mexico City. I don't think so. I think you found most the evidence of a trip BY BUS. But I hope I'm wrong. I hope you have indeed found evidence of a trip by an alleged Oswald BY CAR. Because that would prove my theory to be correct. Edited February 3, 2018 by Sandy Larsen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted February 3, 2018 Author Share Posted February 3, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said: David, I'm pretty sure you are not paying close attention to what I'm writing. Here is our most recent exchange: Sandy: Are you aware of any evidence for that road trip BY CAR to MC? David: Yes of course I'm aware of it... I found most of it... So what you are saying here is that you found most the evidence of a road trip BY CAR to Mexico City. I don't think so. I think you found most the evidence of a trip BY BUS. But I hope I'm wrong. I hope you have indeed found evidence of a trip by an alleged Oswald BY CAR. Because that would prove my theory to be correct. Sandy and David, Wait a second. Are you talking about Harvey, or Lee? Maybe they rented a car and Lee taught Harvey how to drive? -- Tom Edited February 4, 2018 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted February 3, 2018 Share Posted February 3, 2018 Steve, the only weapons dealing involving MC that I am aware of involved Cuban agents using Mexico as a covert transshipment point for sending Cuban weapons into Latin America. That was a very big deal for the CIA and a lot of intel collection resources were allocated towards exposing that and bringing it to Mexican govt attention...a lot of the wire tap work went into that. On the other hand there were two things involving MC that were priority concerns for both the FBI and the CIA at that point in time. One was the AMSANTA project which put FPCC associated people into Cuba as intel sources and they went via MC. For many reasons that stands out as a very possible use of Oswald and it gets discussed way too little. The second was the tasking to shut down American illegal traveling via Mexico to and from Cuba; the FBI thought there were active Communist subversives involved in that traffic and the CIA assisted efforts to contol it using their surveillance assets in MC. American travel of an sort which could end up going to or from Cuba was a major target. I'll point out that we see virtually nothing related to other of those two joint activities in the materials provided in respect to the assassination investigation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 9 hours ago, Larry Hancock said: Steve, the only weapons dealing involving MC that I am aware of involved Cuban agents using Mexico as a covert transshipment point for sending Cuban weapons into Latin America. That was a very big deal for the CIA and a lot of intel collection resources were allocated towards exposing that and bringing it to Mexican govt attention...a lot of the wire tap work went into that. On the other hand there were two things involving MC that were priority concerns for both the FBI and the CIA at that point in time. One was the AMSANTA project which put FPCC associated people into Cuba as intel sources and they went via MC. For many reasons that stands out as a very possible use of Oswald and it gets discussed way too little. The second was the tasking to shut down American illegal traveling via Mexico to and from Cuba; the FBI thought there were active Communist subversives involved in that traffic and the CIA assisted efforts to contol it using their surveillance assets in MC. American travel of an sort which could end up going to or from Cuba was a major target. I'll point out that we see virtually nothing related to other of those two joint activities in the materials provided in respect to the assassination investigation. Larry, I was reading through some FBI reports on Richard Rudolph Davis (the MDC training camp in Lacombe, La.) the other day. Those guys were ultimately headed to Guatemala. I have read other things that some of the other Cuban exiles were hinting? boasting? that there was going to be another Bay of Pigs invasion coming in November? December? and it was going to be based in Nicaragua was it? Can you expound on your thoughts about using Mexico as a transshipment point? Given Oswald's activities in the fall of 1963, (the MDC camp, Odio, Bringuer, the house on Harlandale, etc.) I agree with your last sentence. Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted February 4, 2018 Share Posted February 4, 2018 Most of the rumors and gossip about another Cuban exile effort into Cuba were developing off the Artime project which he had begun recruiting personnel for already. That did not really jell until the end of 1963 and small boat missions were beginning then but it was 1964 before most of the larger assets were in place - that occurred under AMWORLD. Thanks to Gary Murr I was able to write a lot of that story up in Shadow Warfare. The activities of people like Davis, the abortive New Orleans camps etc were all very minor, limited financing and all targeted by the FBI whenever possible...those folks were the "outsiders" I write about in SWHT as compared to Artime and his folks who were receiving money, boats, planes, weapons etc in far greater amounts than they could even use...actually the one thing they lacked was sufficient people, that is why RFK allowed them to begin recruiting at both Army training bases such as Benning and Air Force bases such as Sheppard AFB in Texas. The Cuban arms going through Mexico were of great concern to the CIA and the Mexican govt, Jeff Morley touch on the activities of the MC station in regard to that in his book. Most of it was done very covertly via cargo shipments into Mexico with weapons being transferred for shipment south by rail or truck. One of the main goals of all the wire taps conducted jointly by the CIA and the Mexican government was to monitor people involved in those activities. There was an active Communist party inside Mexico and of course they aided such Cuban activities whenever possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B. A. Copeland Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 Larry, just your personal opinion (or observation), but do you believe the Mexican Govt. has (or had) important documentation related to MC circa 1963? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Hancock Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 The Mexican DFS had copies of all the tapes and some amount of transcripts made from the phone office tap on the embassies but I don't know that would have told them all that much even after the fact. Generally the CIA shared what they felt the Mexican president would find valuable so that likely did not apply as to Osald's visit. I don't know that the DFS itself did much investigation of the visit, certainly they did cooperate in picking up Duran and doing her interrogation but we know what that produced. If the DFS or Mexican president's office did any investigating on their own it was probably very specific, at CIA request. All in all I'm inclined to think that if anyone had important information that we have not seen that it was the FBI legate in MC and we know virtually nothing about what the FBI did in regard to the trip - other than Hosty's remarks about talking to his bureau friends in Mexico. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) On 2/3/2018 at 11:40 AM, Sandy Larsen said: David, I'm pretty sure you are not paying close attention to what I'm writing. Here is our most recent exchange: Sandy: Are you aware of any evidence for that road trip BY CAR to MC? David: Yes of course I'm aware of it... I found most of it... So what you are saying here is that you found most the evidence of a road trip BY CAR to Mexico City. I don't think so. I think you found most the evidence of a trip BY BUS. But I hope I'm wrong. I hope you have indeed found evidence of a trip by an alleged Oswald BY CAR. Because that would prove my theory to be correct. The information about a car comes from a very specific source... the FM-11 which was used as the basis for 2 cards typed up by TIJERINA. CASH lies to his superiors in this Jan 13 1964 memo... the note should say "CHAPMAN" not "CASHMAN" has the 11/24 info from what was on those cards.... below that is one piece of the FM-11 showing "AUTO" - but we must remember something about that form and where all the evidence comes from: Our GOBERNACION FBI asset "makes material changes" to the FM-11 for clarity.... so what starts to happen on 11/23 is the gathering of all bus line data from those dates, the creation of bus line evidence which includes Oswald, and the addition of a few choice words on the FM-11.... (the man who did this also had the Tourists visas, applications and the hotel registry book) Also notice the different names on the two cards... one, LEE, Harvey Oswald or HARVEY OSWALD LEE is the man leaving the 3rd (due to the Greyhound evidence which shows H.O. LEE) OSWALD, Lee Harvey or LEE HARVEY OSWALD arrived the 26th with literally zero info recorded... admonishments were given due to the lack of info on these forms - we should see the mode of transport, the date, the destination, etc.... the cards were created after the fact based on info from CASH who we see lies to his bosses at I&NS about the evidence and what it says. Oswald did not drive.... any accusation that puts him in a car, puts him with co-conspirators.... that was the CIA PHASE 1... Castro conspiracy (just ask Alvarado) Phase 2 is Lone Nut... so the car ride MUST become a solo bus ride.... What theory are you talking about Sandy? The "car-trip" was part of the charade.... part of the CIA's charade... One group of "car" evidence claims he arrived with a woman and a man... Bill and Elaine ALLEN... except their name was BRILL and the investigation proved negative... (Oswald 201 Vol 3 folder 8 p147) One last little point The man was known in Mexico as H.O.LEE... Last name LEE... as we see below in a typed sequential ALPHABETIC version of the FM-11... Why is Mr. LEE alphabetized between Mr. Moore and Mr. Ouellet... as if whoever alphabetized this, knew his name was Oswald... Mr. LEE's return home "evidence" - they finally settled on a Del Norte bus for his return.... (maybe go see what the Aussie girl says about the bus she took.... and why it was not possible, using the journey offered, for our Oswald to have been on that bus, even if he had taken the trip described... Edited August 22, 2023 by David Josephs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) On 3/22/2018 at 4:50 PM, B. A. Copeland said: Larry, just your personal opinion (or observation), but do you believe the Mexican Govt. has (or had) important documentation related to MC circa 1963? Sorry to butt in.... The FBI seemed to have informants within the DFS as well as their own surveillance programs... I'd think there was quite a lot from Mexico from this time... One would think that the spies within the DFS would make sure to get any important info to Pres Mateos... and if the Mexicans were watching Kostikov, they could probably prove Oswald was not there.... LIEMBRACE A Mexico City-based surveillance project, under the umbrella LIPSTICK project. LIEMBRACE included a surveillance team, a radio repairman, and a photo truck team. LITENSOR Adolfo Lopez Mateos, President of Mexico in 1963.LIENVOY CIA telephone tapping program in Mexico City, targeting Cuban and Soviet embassies and run in conjunction with the Mexican DFS. Netted phone calls allegedy of Oswald. See also LIFEAT. Edited August 22, 2023 by David Josephs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B. A. Copeland Posted March 22, 2018 Share Posted March 22, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, David Josephs said: Sorry to butt in.... The FBI seemed to have informants within the DFS as well as their own surveillance programs... I'd think there was quite a lot from Mexico from this time... One would think that the spies within the DFS would make sure to get any important info to Pres Mateos... and if the Mexicans were watching Kostikov, they could probably prove Oswald was not there.... LIEMBRACE A Mexico City-based surveillance project, under the umbrella LIPSTICK project. LIEMBRACE included a surveillance team, a radio repairman, and a photo truck team. LITENSOR Adolfo Lopez Mateos, President of Mexico in 1963.LIENVOY CIA telephone tapping program in Mexico City, targeting Cuban and Soviet embassies and run in conjunction with the Mexican DFS. Netted phone calls allegedy of Oswald. See also LIFEAT. Very interesting David, thanks (and no worries)! I remember an audio Simpich did with Giglio/Our Hidden History (I believe it was there or either Chuck Ochelli) where he mentions how embarrassing he believed it would be for Mexico to reveal how much they were used by the US around that time, thus causing no motivation whatsoever for the Mexican Govt. to release anything sensitive....It is absolutely frustrating this case.... Oh and Dave I also wanted to ask, is your Mexico City study (The Evidence Is The Conspiracy) available as a .pdf? Edited March 22, 2018 by B. A. Copeland Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now