The Paine Files

[Joe Bauer]

On 7/10/2020 at 5:10 PM, James DiEugenio said:

 

I did not talk to Maddox very long.  It was just a few minutes in Dealey Plaza at one of those anniversaries.

But I have never read anything that would give me pause about the man.

I mean Ruby essentially says the same in that famous video which I think you can see on You Tube, that people in high places put him in the position he is in.

Its not that difficult to dig up stuff like this, you just talk to enough people and you can do it.

I don't know, it seems to me Ruby's written statements in the note " It was a conspiracy" and "my motive was to silence Oswald" were much more powerful in their specificity and flat out directly saying what they were saying.  That there was a conspiracy and Ruby's motive in killing Oswald was to silence him.

Versus Ruby's simple "yes" answer when asked the much more general question whether vaguely identified people Ruby claimed put him in the position he was in were from high places. 

Consider also, this later revealed palmed letter incident and the shocking Ruby confession content in it, is coming from the lips of a career police officer who wasn't considered mentally imbalanced as Ruby was.

Did Maddox ignore the note and not mention it in a public way for over 33 years because he felt it was just the written ramblings of a nutcase - Ruby?

Maddox didn't say that in his recollection of the note and it's incredible claims however.

Instead he mentioned the note and it's content in a clearly serious tone versus a lighter dismissive one. 

If only the interviewer could have asked Maddox his thoughts about the note and whether he dismissed it for the reason above or took it much more seriously and maybe even believed it and kept it's existence quiet for other reasons? So frustrating to not see questions like this presented to Maddox.

Still, I never understood why Ruby's "The world will never know the true facts " claims stated in that news conference with his two attorneys at his side ( as vague as they were ) were ignored and not followed up on by not just our investigative government committees and agencies let alone our main stream press. 

Were they ignored because they were just considered the crazy ramblings of a mentally ill Ruby?

Was Ruby, in the end just considered out of his gourd by everyone?

Imagine if Lee Harvey Oswald said much more than "I am just a patsy."?

What if in his brief incarceration and the few times he was allowed to speak to the national press Oswald had said..."the world will never know the true facts" and how people in high places put him in the position he was in.?

And then this block buster..."It was a conspiracy" and " My motive was to ????? JFK." !!!

But coming from the lips of Jack Ruby... these same incredibly mind blowing statements are scoffingly ignored?

As Walter Matthau's Huey Long character in the film JFK says..."That dog don't hunt."

Edited July 12, 2020 by Joe Bauer

[Ron Bulman]

22 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

He changed his story on the file cabinets.

Man how did I miss the barrel issue and the FPCC flyers?  Nice one Ron.

Thanks for the acknowledgement.  It kind of stunned me on first thought. 

FPCC flyers stored in Banister's offices, distributed by Oswald.   

Flyers stored in a barrel in Ruth and Michael Paine's garage, documented by the Dallas County Sheriff's Office, turned over to the DPD.

Then disappeared. 

[James DiEugenio]

Does it really seem possible that Oswald would have left small file cabinets. AND FPCC flyers? That  would mean he brought them home to his apartment in New Orleans. 

He then left them laying around for over a month, because after the court proceeding in New Orleans, I don't see any record of his leafleting again.

But yet, why would he do that when he had an office at Banister's?  I mean what was James Arthus getting rid of at 544 Camp Street then?

[Ron Bulman]

I recently read something about Oswald taking a bus from New Orleans to Dallas at the end of the summer in 1963 after Ruth Paine picked up Marina.  Not sure where, don't remember seeing this before.  Earlier in this thread I questioned how he got the 7 little file cabinets from NO to Dallas much less the Carcano Ruth nor Michael remember unloading.  I wondered how he toted them if he as I though Ruth said he hitch hiked from NO.  Either way, if as Michael Paine implies, they were Oswald's files, how did he transfer them to Michael's garage?  Further, Michael pointed out they regarded Oswald's Cuban, Communist, Castro connections, how did he know this if he wasn't already aware of them being stored in his garage?

Now we add a barrel of monkeys, or FPCC pamphlet's to the question.  How did they get there?  Along with the (non existent) rifle? 

[Paul Brancato]

If the files were real, they were not necessarily moved from NO, and they were not necessarily large. Also not necessarily Oswald’s. Might have been Ruth’s.

[Ron Bulman]

3 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

If the files were real, they were not necessarily moved from NO, and they were not necessarily large. Also not necessarily Oswald’s. Might have been Ruth’s.

Bingo.  They were real per Deputy Sheriff Walthers.  They belong to Ruth and Michael Paine, collectors of information on Cubans, sheepherders of the Oswald's, unbeknownst to them, regarding the bigger picture and final outcome.  "We both know wo is responsible". 11/22/63.

[Joe Bauer]

"We both know who's responsible."

Talk about the $64,000 question!

Mr. Paine, Mrs. Paine, who were you referring to regards this statement to each other?

Was it "proven" they said this in a taped telephone conversation on 11,22,1963 or even the next day or two?

Wonder what Ruth Paine thought when she watched Jack Ruby whack Oswald right in the Dallas PD basement with 70 armed security personnel all around?

Don't think she felt much sympathy for LHO. She really hated the guy.

But, did this shocking and almost impossible to believe Oswald security breakdown scenario give her one tiny bit of pause and suspicious thoughts that maybe there was more to JFK's assassination than simple, angry Oswald doing it all by himself?

10's of millions of other Americans who watched handcuffed Oswald being blasted into oblivion in the DPD basement live on TV or later that day sure felt suspicion, as they should have.

Edited July 12, 2020 by Joe Bauer

[Kirk Gallaway]

Joe said: "But, did this shocking and almost impossible to believe Oswald security breakdown scenario give her one tiny bit of pause and suspicious thoughts that maybe there was more to JFK's assassination than simple, angry Oswald doing it all by himself? "

Joe, I'm really miffed at your comment. you don't see that the primary narrative pushed here by certainly Jim Di, but many others is that  either 1) Ruth is an agent, on a need to know basis, who found herself in the middle of a plot to assassinate JFK, and subsequently fueled the case against Oswald Or 2)  was aware and is an intricate part of the plot to kill JFK and frame Oswald?

The narrative here is not that Ruth is naive, she's a "dragon lady."

.

 

 

Edited July 12, 2020 by Kirk Gallaway

[Steve Thomas]

I don't believe that the six or seven small file cabinets that Walthers put in the trunk of his car containing the names of "Cuban sympathizers" held the names of pro-Castro supporters.

I think they were files on anti-Castro individuals. I believe that evidence that Oswald was trying to infiltrate anti-Castro organizations goes back to June of 1962, shortly after his return from Russia.

Marina Oswald testified that Lee's behavior change could be traced back to those visits from the FBI in June and August of August, 1962.

People have said that they think Will Fritz deep-sixed those file cabinets. I don't think so. In his Report, Walthers said that he turned them over to Will Fritz and the Secret Service.

I think it was the Secret Service who made them disappear.

Steve Thomas

 

[Steve Thomas]

3 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

I don't believe that the six or seven small file cabinets that Walthers put in the trunk of his car containing the names of "Cuban sympathizers" held the names of pro-Castro supporters.

I think they were files on anti-Castro individuals. I believe that evidence that Oswald was trying to infiltrate anti-Castro organizations goes back to June of 1962, shortly after his return from Russia.

Marina Oswald testified that Lee's behavior change could be traced back to those visits from the FBI in June and August of August, 1962.

Steve Thomas

 

Back when Oswald was in Russia, he wrote a letter to either the Department of State, or to John Connally as Secretary of the Navy (I can't remember which) trying to negotiate his return. In his letter, Oswald said something like he'd be willing to return, provided he wouldn't suffer any legal repercussions.

I've always wondered if he was working for the CIA or ONI over in Russia, why would be go to work for the FBI once he got back.
Frontline interview with Robert Oswald, November 19, 2013.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/interview-robert-oswald/

Following his return from Russia in the latter part of June, 1962, Lee Oswald gets a call from SA John Fain asking for a meeting. Oswald agrees. Afterwards, Robert asks him how it went. Lee answers, "Well, everything went all right. They even asked me if I had ever been an agent of the Federal government or the CIA."

"I said, What did you tell them?"

"He says, Well, don't you know? and just laughed."

Fain interviewed Oswald on June 26, 1962. See Belmont’s WC interview here:

https://books.google.com/books?id=Mr1FAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA8&lpg=PA8&dq=Oswald+Fain+June,+1963&source=bl&ots=Ec2hOMYYIF&sig=ACfU3U38QhVERsiEDLujno8fo1DNh5L3Aw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjNvIT6x8fqAhXqmeAKHV2aDO4Q6AEwAnoECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q=Oswald%20Fain%20June%2C%201963&f=false

Fain re-interviewed Oswald in August, 1962.

Warren Commission Hearings Volume XVII page 738

CE 824 - Copy of an FBI report by Special Agent Fain, dated August 30, 1962.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1134&relPageId=764

This made the investigators suspicious”

I don't think he was a spy wanna-be over here. I think the FBI threatened him, and told him if he didn't go to work for them, they'd make his life a living hell.

Marina Oswald testified that Lee's behavior change could be traced back to those visits from the FBI in June and August of August, 1962.

Steve Thomas

[Joe Bauer]

16 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Joe said: "But, did this shocking and almost impossible to believe Oswald security breakdown scenario give her one tiny bit of pause and suspicious thoughts that maybe there was more to JFK's assassination than simple, angry Oswald doing it all by himself? "

Joe, I'm really miffed at your comment. you don't see that the primary narrative pushed here by certainly Jim Di, but many others is that  either 1) Ruth is an agent, on a need to know basis, who found herself in the middle of a plot to assassinate JFK, and subsequently fueled the case against Oswald Or 2)  was aware and is an intricate part of the plot to kill JFK and frame Oswald?

The narrative here is not that Ruth is naive, she's a "dragon lady."

.

 

 

I know.

Although at least one other poster here disagrees with Jim Di's "Dragon Lady" take and narrative on RP.

I mention the "who's responsible" RP to MP telephone call recording story because if the tape exists or existed and this highly suspicious comment was actually on it, obviously it would be a highly incriminating piece of evidence that would logically add serious weight to the proposition of RP and/or MP being much more involved characters in the whole matter versus not.

A piece of evidence that could significantly crack the simple good Samaritan Quaker motivated cover story egg shell if true.

A hugely important one that I am sure all of us here really want to know more about.

I mention Ruth Paine's possible reactions to Oswald's shocking murder within just two days after the shocking JFK one because I believe they might add some determining weight to any doubts regarding her full honesty in relating her story.

I was always struck by Ruth Paine's extraordinary disdain for Oswald personally.

It seemed more intense than normal and fueled by deeper issues in her personal background life imo.

I am curious about these other issues regards RP. 

Speaking of "Dragon Lady" type characters, the Carol Channing affected speaking manner Priscilla Johnson McMillan seems a great candidate for this nefarious title if anyone is.

She takes control of Marina Oswald and becomes her mentor? 

Anyone reading PJM's overly numerous Oswald connected travel and position coincidence filled background has to be highly suspicious of her entire presence in this whole affair. 

Enhanced by her just plain creepy overly exaggerated Carol Channing big eyed , weird speaking impersonating manner she presents in her public interviews, at least the one we saw when she and Marina were interviewed together.

 

Edited July 12, 2020 by Joe Bauer

[John Butler]

On ‎7‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 4:06 PM, James DiEugenio said:

Ruth was pretty busy that summer, eh?

And she accomplished her early objective at the end by separating Lee from Marina.

Jim,

How much credit is there In the ideas that Oswald was running a safe house or safe houses while he was away from Marina five days of the week? 

I have read that notion several times that one of Ruth's objectives was to separate Lee and Marina.  Was that to keep an eye on Marina for the CIA or FBI since Hosty wasn't doing a great job of it.  Or, for some other purpose?

One other question.  In the two file cabinets in the garage had one letter in a drawer.  Were there file folders in each drawer of the file cabinets or was there just one file folder containing one letter?

The reason I ask is this photo:

It appears that at one time Michael Paine did woodworking.  There is a band saw, what appears to be a drill press, and what appears to be a radial arm saw.  File cabinets are usually used for paper products, but can be used for other purposes.  It's a strange collection available.  Wonder what is in those 4 or 5 barrels and what they were used for?  There are boxes there that could be used to store files etc.  The barrels could be used to burn things, but they don't appear to have carbon smudge anywhere.     

[Gene Kelly]

Great interview with Vincent Salandria in 2016: The Role of The Paines In History - Transcript of statement by Vincent Salandria read on April 8, 2016 during his interview as background for the Documentary, The Assassination & Mrs. Paine.  In this, he lays out how they were used ... and that they knew it, and should admit such:

Let us briefly summarize some, but certainly not all, of the vital work carried out by the Paines without which no successful Dallas conspiracy to kill Kennedy could possibly have occurred. The work of the Paines regarding Oswald was essential for the successful closing of the circle of events that were required to kill Kennedy and to frame Oswald as the patsy.

•  It was Ruth Paine who had arranged to drive Lee Harvey Oswald’s family from New Orleans to the Dallas area.

• It was Ruth Paine who had timely managed Oswald to get a job in the Texas Book Depository Building which turned out to be situated on the Presidential motorcade route of November 22, 1963.

• It was Ruth Paine who failed to advise Oswald that a better paying job was available to him than the one to which she had arranged to get for him at the Texas Book Depository Building.

• It was in Ruth Paine’s garage where the rifle was supposedly stored that allegedly belonged to Oswald and was asserted to have been used by Oswald to kill Kennedy.

• It was in Ruth Paine’s garage in which other incriminating evidence against Oswald was reported to have been stored.

• It was the role of Ruth Paine and Michael Paine, both of whom purported to be committed to civil liberties, to join the authorities in designating Oswald as the assassin without his having had been offered even a suggestion of due process before he was conveniently killed while in police custody.

Probability theory, a branch of mathematics, dictates that the invaluable work of the Paines, which served to incriminate Oswald as the assassin, and to frame him, could not have been left by the conspirators to happenstance. One cannot rationally attribute to happenstance the cause of the series of actions of the Paines, which served to impute guilt to Oswald. Such a conclusion defies the axioms and logic of probability theory. So, the Paines were a necessary part of the conspiracy to kill Kennedy and to frame Oswald. Probability theory precludes that the Paines had not been selected to play their roles but had randomly and by happenstance performed them. It also necessarily follows that since the Paines had been assigned their roles by the assassins, the Paines could serve as beacons showing the way to identify the conspirators who had selected them. It was to confirm the identity of the forces behind Kennedy’s assassination that I was eager to get to know the Paines.

As we have set forth, there is no rational way that the Paines can hope to explicate their roles in the Kennedy assassination as the innocent results of an accidental occurrence of a series of inexplicable and weird coincidences. The mathematics of probability theory forecloses that a series of coincidences serve as fig leaves to conceal effectively their guilt by enabling the conspirators to assassinate President Kennedy. The truth is plain. With great care, they were chosen by Allen Dulles to do their work that made possible Kennedy’s assassination in Dallas.

Intelligence agencies require that their operatives, in carrying out their covert functions, know only what they need to know. Therefore, it is quite clear that the Paines had no reason or need to know, and therefore had received no forewarning, of the planned assassination of Kennedy. They had no reason to believe that they were being selected by Allen Dulles to serve critical roles in falsely implicating Oswald in an assassination in which he was to be the patsy. The information to which they were made privy about the nature of their assignments, which information was greatly constricted, was based on need-to-know limitations. The information which they had prior to the assassination was unquestionably sketchy and uninformative. They were in a very real sense victimized by being unknowingly and critically positioned so that they have been recorded in history as having played key roles in effectuating the conspiracy which killed President Kennedy. They were victimized by their employers, the national security state, in its falsification of the historical questions in order to obscure how and why it assassinated Kennedy.

I respectfully direct my concluding remarks to Ruth and Michael Paine. I address them as a fellow human being who understands and empathizes with them for the evil roles they were unknowingly designated to serve on behalf of the criminality of our national security state. They were victimized by being placed in positions which resulted in enormous harm to our republic and to global peace. As a consequence of the Kennedy assassination, the national security state which killed Kennedy, is now in substantial control of both our military budget and our foreign policy. On May 1, 1962 Kennedy posed a question to some Quakers who visited him at the White House. He asked: “You believe in redemption, don’t you?” I hope that the Paines believe in redemption and will, through telling the truth about their assassination roles, turn away from the militarists and towards a more peaceful world which Kennedy was seeking when he was martyred.

[Paul Brancato]

Gene - if Vince was right, it stands to reason that the Paines never came forward because the personal consequences were too great. In that case they may have left something behind when they passed away - I think they both passed away - that will see the light of day at some point.

[Ron Bulman]

27 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Gene - if Vince was right, it stands to reason that the Paines never came forward because the personal consequences were too great. In that case they may have left something behind when they passed away - I think they both passed away - that will see the light of day at some point.

Paul, Michael passed 3/1/2018 in Sebastopol California.  Ruth's bio still shows no death date.  I'm pretty sure I've read she also lives in Northern California.  Maybe the same one Michael lived in.  Seems like they may have lived in the same retirement facility or community but not together.