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Keyvan Shahrdar

Robert Hughes film shows a muzzle flash from the third floor of the records building?

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Posted (edited)

The following links is a first source Robert Hughes film from the Sixth Floor Museum.  There you can see what seems to be a muzzle flash from the second or third floor of the records building.

http://emuseum.jfk.org/view/objects/asitem/search@/5/title-asc?t:state:flow=c6555756-4319-4fb5-a1e1-943865bd0058

This muzzle flash seems to coincide with Zapruder film frame 227 - Seems to show JFK getting hit in the back of the head, no exit wound from this bullet.  Wonder if this is the magic bullet that came out of his head after JFK's head got blown off?

z227.jpg

Any one have any comments on this?

 

The following are YouTube links of individuals firing a Mauser and seeing a muzzle flash

 

 

Edited by Keyvan Shahrdar

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I'll bite, Keyvan, because I'm like that.  Where is that flash, exactly?  Camouflaged in the burned frame(s)?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, David Andrews said:

I'll bite, Keyvan, because I'm like that.  Where is that flash, exactly?  Camouflaged in the burned frame(s)?

David, you really think that is a burned out area of the frame next to a window where we see something that looks like movement in the window of the records building?  Reason I ask is because to me, it does not look like a burned frame.  I am looking at other muzzle flashes and I think this one seems to look like one.  BTW, do you know what type of rifles the Dallas PD used in 1963?

http://emuseum.jfk.org/view/objects/asitem/search@/0/title-asc?t:state:flow=48b5834e-30b5-4481-9804-48a89c0a222a  - This is a link of the Bronson film,  look at about 14 seconds into it, you can definitely see some movement in the second or third floor of the records building.  Looks like rifle starting to take aim.

Edited by Keyvan Shahrdar

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10 hours ago, Keyvan Shahrdar said:

http://emuseum.jfk.org/view/objects/asitem/search@/0/title-asc?t:state:flow=48b5834e-30b5-4481-9804-48a89c0a222a  - This is a link of the Bronson film,  look at about 14 seconds into it, you can definitely see some movement in the second or third floor of the records building.  Looks like rifle starting to take aim.

I assume we're talking about the second floor. At least it's the first row of windows up from street level.

I don't see any movement, but the second window of the second floor has some irregular shape at its top or just above it, unlike any of the other windows. And it's the same window where the flash occurs. 

I'm surprised there are not more comments about this. I'm curious as to why David doesn't see the flash.

 

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I don't know why I don't see the flash in Hughes, either.  Is it in the window with the man sitting below it on the fire escape?  Part of my viewing problem is that 0:34 coincides with a jump cut to a closer perspective on the later cars in the motorcade.  If someone could isolate the relevant before-during-after video frames as stills, it would be a help.

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9 minutes ago, David Andrews said:

 Is it in the window with the man sitting below it on the fire escape?  Part of my viewing problem is that 0:34 coincides with a jump cut to a closer perspective on the later cars in the motorcade.  If someone could isolate the relevant before-during-after video frames as stills, it would be a help.

The fire escape is on the DalTex Building.

The Records Building is the white and gray building with the tall thin windows. The jump cut to the later cars at 0:34 is when you see the building (and the flash in the second window on the second floor).

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Ron Ecker said:

The fire escape is on the DalTex Building.

The Records Building is the white and gray building with the tall thin windows. The jump cut to the later cars at 0:34 is when you see the building (and the flash in the second window on the second floor).

 

Sorry - posting at work again.  I really do know the differance, I'm just not used to shot theories from the CRB windows.

Here's a take:

1) The issue of figures and movement in that CRB window has been discussed in a past thread.

2) That movement doesn't look particularly stealthy in Bronson.  It looks like someone leaning out and waving, maybe waving an object.

3) Whoever or whatever that is in the window, it's up awfully high in that window, if that window fits a conventional floor plan.  Perhaps these modernist windows only have an opening section at the top, for ventilation.  Possibly someone's on a ladder indoors.

4) A modernist-design window in a façade such as that usually fronts an interior public space such as a corridor, not a secluded office.  (Though it could be otherwise in the CRB floor plan.)  So maybe not a lot of privacy for a rifleman.

5) I don't think there's a muzzle flash visible in Hughes.  I think that white light is a loss of emulsion in that spot.  You can see lines of white light/emulsion loss in Hughes just a few moments later.  However, that "flash" in Hughes may occur over several film frames, which is suspicious.  Could the emulsion be scraped away to conceal something?

6) Could the emulsion loss be due to continued viewing of the film?  The large burn during the limo turn is ostensibly the result of continued rewinding and pausing of the original.  Could that have caused the emulsion loss "flash" also?

7) There is no way to tell from a video transfer posted online if that's a muzzle flash or emulsion loss.  One would have to examine the original Hughes film frames.  But I'm betting that's emulsion loss in that frame or frames, from one cause or another.  

Edited by David Andrews

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, David Andrews said:

1) The issue of figures and movement in that CRB window has been discussed in a past thread.

2) That movement doesn't look particularly stealthy in Bronson.  It looks like someone leaning out and waving, maybe waving an object.

3) Whoever or whatever that is in the window, it's up awfully high in that window, if that window fits a conventional floor plan.  Perhaps these modernist windows only have an opening section at the top.  Possibly someone's on a ladder indoors. Keyvan>> See attached, from the angle of the Bronson and Hughes film, it does look that way.  In reality, the person is at the bottom of that window or on top of the facade between floors. 

4) A modernist-design window in a façade such as that usually fronts an interior public space such as a corridor, not a secluded office.  (Though it could be otherwise in the CRB design.)  So maybe not a lot of privacy for a rifleman. Keyvan>> If there was a rifleman in that windows, he/she shot from inside, on a downward angle; that is why a suspected muzzle flash is seen in the area.

5) I don't think there's a muzzle flash visible in Hughes.  I think that white light is a loss of emulsion.  You can see lines of white light/emulsion loss in Hughes just a few moments later.  However, that "flash" in Hughes may occur over several film frames, which is suspicious.  Could the emulsion be scraped away to conceal something? Keyvan>>Usually on a burnt frame, the emulsion is discolored on the edges with a darker color.  

6) Could the emulsion loss be due to continued viewing of the film?  The large burn during the limo turn is ostensibly the result of continued rewinding and pausing of the original.  Could that have caused the emulsion loss "flash" also? Keyvan>> Why would there be an emulsion in one spot of that frame right next to a window where there seems to be movement?  The whole frame would be damaged.  Emulsion or not, highly suspicious 

7) There is no way to tell from a video transfer posted online if that's a muzzle flash or emulsion loss.  One would have to examine the original Hughes film.  But I'm betting that's emulsion loss in that frame or frames, from one cause or another.  Keyvan>> To truly qualify this we do need to investigate the original Hughes film and try to replicate a rifle shot from that window with similar atmospheric conditions.

 

Records_Capture.PNG

Edited by Keyvan Shahrdar

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Posted (edited)

OK, from photo above, that's one bank of four tallish two-section window per floor.  And it looks even more like that's public space back there, not narrow offices with one window each.

In Keyvan's muzzle flash videos - those cameramen are within 20 feet of the shooter, not across the street and below.  So I'm thinking that large "flash" is lost emulsion.  Someone who knows film stock or the Hughes film better ought to weigh in.

Edited by David Andrews

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It could be emulsion loss, but what a coincidence that it occurs right at that window, the only one with something sticking out of it, at just the right time.

 

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Chris, the people at the windows in the Bell clip are above the window where the flash occurs. And there is nothing sticking out of the window in question. That something appears at some point after the limo has passed.

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