The Dual Life of Albert Osborne

[George Sawtelle]

David

If the CIA did with Oswald in MC what the WC said Oswald did in MC and wanted to do, i.e., go to Cuba then onto Russia, and Oswald's MC escapade was part of a CIA plan to link him to the Russian assassin, then they do a better job than what was done. This is the basis for my post above.

If the MC incident is truly a CIA project to link the Russian assassin to Oswald and the assassination of Kennedy and thus put Russia in the crosshairs of nuclear button pushers, then the impersonation of Oswald was a failure.

The CIA did not need to have anyone impersonate Oswald. He was under the control of Phillips who was in MC and who could have easily ordered Oswald to MC to do what was necessary to link Russia to the assassination. Phillips had done his homework. According to Antonio Veciana, Phillips had asked him (Veciana) if a visa could be obtained fairly quickly in MC for a trip to Cuba. Veciana told Phillips it would take some time. Maybe this is why Oswald's trip to MC was called off.

And that is the main reason I say the MC caper was not a CIA project.

 

[Paul Brancato]

George - does it seem reasonable to you that the very experienced Phillips would need to ask Veciana that question? It brings to mind a central point, which is that the deepest rabbit hole is Oswald. If one believes, as I do, that Oswald did not shoot a rifle from the 6th floor that day, we should be looking elsewhere for who did shoot. If Phillips met with Oswald, it doesn't necessarily follow that Phillips was part of a plot to kill JFK. To say that Phillips 'ran'' Oswald is a bit too certain. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. Veciana's latter day confession isn't proof, and statements like the one you referenced don't inspire in me confidence in his believability. I thought that Veciana said, in his latest appearance, that Phillips would have known that Oswald would be unsuccessful in his visa query. Am I misremembering that? In any case it makes no sense that Phillips would send Oswald to MC with the expectation that he would get a visa. If he did run him, and did send him to MC, it had to be for another purpose.

Edited November 3, 2017 by Paul Brancato

[James DiEugenio]

David:

Sorry to get back to you late, working on a couple of things for publication.

As to your question above as to why Eddie and Danny went along with the WC evidence about the bus ride down:

I have to say, I never asked either one of them as to why that preface about the bus ride down was in the report. 

I would have to conjecture that they never really examined the ride down in detail. Or the story about the bus departure, which is even more full of holes than how he got down.

I would venture to say that this is what they were asked to do by Blakey.  Its funny though, because even without that forensic examination of arrival and departure, both think Oswald was impersonated anyway.

Can you imagine if they had minutely examined the bus evidence?  Blakey would have turned blue.

 

 

Edited November 3, 2017 by James DiEugenio

[David Josephs]

You mean upon reviewing this strong evidence?

 

Rolando BARRIOS – an employee who was dismissed from the travel agency by  manager Teresa Schaeffer Bequerisse – is the source for both the Del Norte ticket order #14618 and the Greyhound exchange order #43599.  CE2121 p64-72

 

WCD 1084 p106-108 In Summary:

·         Alejandro SAUCEDO, manager Flecha Rojas bus terminal Mexico City, tells us that “soon after the assassination” the Flecha Rojas evidence was taken by “unidentified investigators” of the Mexican Government.  He felt the name LEE HARVEY OSWALD did not appear thereon.

·         SAUCEDO claims these men were only interested in the info related to bus #516 on Sept 26^th. 

·         These men tell SAUCEDO that THEY WERE JUST AT FRONTERA where they located the PASSENGER list for Oswald’s departure from Mexico City.*

·         Mr. SAUCEDO, as told by the same informant: T-12, added on April 2nd that the two men who took the evidence were Policia Federal Judicial (PJF) and that they already had Flecha Rojas duplicate from Nuevo Laredo. 

On March 24^th, a week or so earlier, the DFS Assistant Director BARRIOS (different man) informs us that the DFS did NOT conduct an investigation with regards to Oswald’s travel.  *We come to find only a few pages prior in this same report that the FRONTERA evidence was “corrected” by Arturo Bosch of the Mexican Presidential Staff.  WCD 1084 p103

[David Josephs]

15 hours ago, George Sawtelle said:

David

If the CIA did with Oswald in MC what the WC said Oswald did in MC and wanted to do, i.e., go to Cuba then onto Russia, and Oswald's MC escapade was part of a CIA plan to link him to the Russian assassin, then they do a better job than what was done. This is the basis for my post above.

If the MC incident is truly a CIA project to link the Russian assassin to Oswald and the assassination of Kennedy and thus put Russia in the crosshairs of nuclear button pushers, then the impersonation of Oswald was a failure.

The CIA did not need to have anyone impersonate Oswald. He was under the control of Phillips who was in MC and who could have easily ordered Oswald to MC to do what was necessary to link Russia to the assassination. Phillips had done his homework. According to Antonio Veciana, Phillips had asked him (Veciana) if a visa could be obtained fairly quickly in MC for a trip to Cuba. Veciana told Phillips it would take some time. Maybe this is why Oswald's trip to MC was called off.

And that is the main reason I say the MC caper was not a CIA project.

 

this look eerily familiar...  lol

"If the CIA did with Oswald in MC what the WC said Oswald did in MC and wanted to do"

What the Warren Commission Report said about ANYTHING cannot be accepted on its face.  

If innocent little Oswald did not go to Mexico related to the assassination - but just went for travel arrangements, why is it so hard to find evidence of the trip and what he did while there...?

 

The CIA did not need to have anyone impersonate Oswald. He was under the control of Phillips who was in MC and who could have easily ordered Oswald to MC to do what was necessary to link Russia to the assassination. Phillips had done his homework. According to Antonio Veciana, Phillips had asked him (Veciana) if a visa could be obtained fairly quickly in MC for a trip to Cuba. Veciana told Phillips it would take some time. Maybe this is why Oswald's trip to MC was called off.

I'm not sure we're connecting on this George...   the CIA did not order and would not order Oswald to go anywhere... beyond the information he could provide about the inside of Russia, the CIA would have little interest in him other than what he seemed to be doing for the FBI.  

Do we agree that our Oswald traveled to Dallas, met with Odio and her sister with 2 Hispanic men and winds up at the YMCA in Dallas on the night of the 3rd.  The evidence related to the last two legs of the trip are even worse than the beginning of the trip...

=======================

On to Mexico City....

The Cuban Consulate in Mexico City was staffed by Cuban, Mexican and CIA intelligence assets... all with different agendas and capabilities.
The CIA used the Mexican DFS to run these tap locations...  The DFS had their own reasons for intel on Cuba and the US as well as the Russians.

ALL, and I do mean ALL the evidence/info prior to 11/22 related to his being down there comes from the CIA. 

Yet as we know, the CIA played some games with what was told to who, when.  The association and reinforcement of "KOSTIKOV" comes first from the man in the Soviet Consulate and is reinforced by Win Scott and then Ambassador Mann...  it is then DROPPED from the cables to STATE, FBI & NAVY...

The 10/10 reply from HQ to MX begins with HENRY's 201 file and all the data related to Oswald...  Question becomes was this the information available for Oswald or was this a 2nd version of Oswald matching the description of another deserter... Webster.  5'10" 165lbs, Blue eyes

Even in Win Scott's letter to Mann the CIA does not overtly equate KOSTIKOV with Dept 13.  I suggest reading STATE SECRET.  Despite the theory and conclusions which may or may not agree with you, the information Bill provides on the SPY-CRAFT going on at this time is amazing.  At the heart of it, we truly do not know who was behind the impersonated voices and of Oswald the person.   

Also from Bill's work the thought that CASTRO used his Mexico City assets to spy on both the Mexicans and Americans...  no one trusted anyone.

Read again about Alvarado....  his story exemplifies what the CIA does to those they control...  Oswald may have been maneuvered, but imo was an FBI asset first and foremost 

[George Sawtelle]

David

You're right there's a disconnect with our posts. The point of my post is that the CIA did not run a project in MC that involved the impersonation of Oswald.

IMO, Oswald started out early from New Orleans on 26 Sept 1963, travelled all morning and then near mid-day took a bus from Houston to Laredo. In Laredo Oswald met with two individuals and all three drove to Dallas where they talked to Odio at about 8 pm at her apartment.

I agree that Oswald did not travel to MC.

[David Josephs]

Then we'll have to agree to disagree...

Not knowing the exact reason for finally using the name LEE OSWALD on the Oct 1 call beyond my speculating that it served to silence the FBI as Oswald was doing their work at the time...  HQ still responded with the HENRY 201 file and the accepted wrong description...

Simpich writes that the CIA effectively created 2 files on Oswald - the real one and the one making him look like Webster....
It is this Webster description that goes to Mexico City... with some truths about the real Oswald.

I realize your conclusion carries with it the assumption that Phillips ran Oswald...  yet if I'm right, the FBI ran Oswald into cross paths with Phillips' Cuban counterintelligence activities - purposefully? I'm not sure.

The evidence getting him there and back is so incredibly poor and revealing you can almost see the FBI's CYA inaction...

I'd go as far as to say we're probably better off assuming everything the CIA offered us regarding Mexico City is a scam
What Angelton and Egerter; Phillips and Goodpasture; and Bill Harvey's group was doing in and around the Cuban Consulate at the time was monumental...

Duran was in play, Azcue as well...  the reading of STATE SECRET is very important simply from a context POV...  again, the theories and conclusions are very interesting and I'd leave it up to you to decide...

we forget sometimes that these other little countries are watching us like hawks and are just as willing to reduce our influence to gain theirs...

Just how I see it...  cheers

DJ

[James DiEugenio]

From reading the newly declassified July files--there was nearly nothing declassified in full last October 26th--its pretty clear that the CIA was having a real problem finding any evidence that Oswald was in Mexico City.  In fact, by around the 26, 27 they are checking incoming planes, sources inside the Cuban embassy etc.  

They cannot find any evidence.  But OTOH they are stuck with these tapes that Goodpasture has sent up that are supposed to be of Oswald. In a November 26th memo to Papich, Helms even writes, in very qualified terms, that the voice on the tape is likely Oswald.

The irony of that of course, is by that time the FBI knows its not Oswald.  As a friend of mine noted, Helms was probably relying on an ersatz comparison done by the lying, conniving -itch, Goodpasture (Eddie Lopez' description of her).

As John Newman writes, this is about when the whole myth that the tapes had been destroyed now enters the picture.  And the CIA now turns over the MC field investigation on Oswald to Echeverria and Ibanez.  Who perform a lot of dirty work to create the legend Oswald was there. When, in fact, what they really do is alter evidence, intimidate witnesses and incinerate evidence.

In Slawson's newly declassified trip report, declassified in July, not October, three key facts are revealed:

1.)  Slawson, Willens and Coleman met only once with Echeverria.  And he more or less blew them off.  In my opinion this was because he had gotten his marching orders from CIA already, since he was good friends with Scott.

2.) Scott lied his head off to the Three Stooges--Willens, Coleman and Slawson.  He admitted CIA had no pics of Oswald at either embassy.  He said, they had no nighttime lights, not enough money, or manpower.  And the three idiots accepted that BS!  When in fact, "Oswald" was not there at night and the CIA had full coverage  every day except Sunday, when the embassy was closed.  This shows the difference between the WC and Danny and Eddie.  The latter did not swallow this crap.  There is no way to escape that, for how many excuses the CIA has made, whether it be Scott, Phillips, Goodpasture, the Russians or whoever wants to try: There should be ten pics of Oswald overall into both embassies.  There are none.  And that has been the conclusion by the CIA from the beginning. And I mean the very beginning, back in November 1963 right after the assassination.  The person who had to have known this first was Goodpasture.  What this means is simple:  If there are no pictures there is no voice on a tape. She then deliberately lied about  this in both pic form and audio form.  And she hid her role in all this from Danny and Eddie.  Until they more or less exposed her and wrote up a bill of indictment for her.

3.) The FBI did not really enter the MC inquiry in force until much later.  In fact, when Willens read the record he was very surprised at this. He even asked Clarke Anderson words to the effect, Why did you guys not start investigating until February in any real way?  Anderson's reply was so nondescript I don't even recall it.  But I suspect its part of FBI's deference to CIA in foreign countries.  Recall, Hoover's memorable handwritten note about not trusting CIA anymore after they handed us that snow job about Oswald being in Mexico City.  That was written about six weeks out.

BTW, the fact that Scott went along with the BS about the pictures seems to me to indicate that the tapes he played for the Three Stooges were also phony.  And that this is why Angleton, once alerted by Goodpasture, hightailed it to Mexico City to clean out Scott's safe.

Two additional comments about the recently declassified Slawson trip report.  First, he cleaned this up compared to his final draft of the report which was declassified in 1996. The 1996 version is only half as long, with much less information in it.  In this longer one, its pretty clear that every place they go The Three Stooges are being blocked. Its Echeverria who does not want Duran interviewed in the American embassy, only informally over coffee. And its Echeverria who does not have more time for another meeting.  And its clear that he and his assistant Ibanez are playing  a bad cop good cop routine, one planned in advance.  None of this comes through in the shorter report declassified over 20 years earlier.  Second, what Shenon did with this information in his book is clever.  To say he underplays it does not do it justice.  To Shenon all the BS that these three guys accepted in MC, it all amounts to sort of like them getting the wrong tacos and sauce from a waitress at a food stand.

When, in fact, to me, and I think others, this and New Orleans are the most crucial events in what happened to JFK before the assassination.  

To which, Shenon says: What me worry?

 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2017 by James DiEugenio

[Mathias Baumann]

On ‎02‎.‎11‎.‎2017 at 5:33 PM, David Josephs said:

One good possibility is that THIS PERSON with BOWEN was morphed into Oswald for the story.  We will see this again on the return trip with VOORHEES and other witnesses who either worked for the bus lines or for the government of Mexico...  they too falsely put Oswald on these buses.

 

David,

according to this recent newpaper article Albert Osborne may have been behind a phone call made to a British newspaper 25 minutes before the assassination:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5026495/Shocking-JFK-confession-Soviet-agent-Grimsby.html

So if Osborne did indeed possess advance knowledge of the assassination, he may have played a considerably more important role in the Mexico City story.

[Paul Brancato]

5 hours ago, Mathias Baumann said:

David,

according to this recent newpaper article Albert Osborne may have been behind a phone call made to a British newspaper 25 minutes before the assassination:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5026495/Shocking-JFK-confession-Soviet-agent-Grimsby.html

So if Osborne did indeed possess advance knowledge of the assassination, he may have played a considerably more important role in the Mexico City story.

Thanks for posting. I reread it and noticed the headline puts 'Soviet Spy' in quotes and later refers to Osborne as a suspected Soviet spy without explanation. I'm trying to post a screen shot from Mae Brussell's essay on the Nazi connection to the JFK assassination. There may be some errors or speculation here. But considering it was written in 1983 that is excusable. She makes the point elsewhere in the article that we should look closely at the Russian community that play so prominently in the Dallas life of the Oswalds, and in the Warren Commission witnesses. I agree.

[Michael Clark]

15 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Thanks for posting. I reread it and noticed the headline puts 'Soviet Spy' in quotes and later refers to Osborne as a suspected Soviet spy without explanation. I'm trying to post a screen shot from Mae Brussell's essay on the Nazi connection to the JFK assassination. There may be some errors or speculation here. But considering it was written in 1983 that is excusable. She makes the point elsewhere in the article that we should look closely at the Russian community that play so prominently in the Dallas life of the Oswalds, and in the Warren Commission witnesses. I agree.

" There were two possible assassination teams in Dallas.

The military from Munich, Germany, that was to take over the YAF, with Robert Morris' help, have yet to be identified."

Bingo, the the Northeast Establishment handshake with Walker.

If I could ask Mr Caddy a question,  I would love to know how deep G. Gordon Liddy's relationship to the YAF and William F. Buckley actually ran. And if he, Caddy, knew Liddy from the 1958 time frame.

Young Turks.....

 

Paul, would you share the link to that article please?

Edited November 5, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Paul Brancato]

Michael - google the Nazi connection to the JFK assassination by Mae Brussell.

[Michael Clark]

32 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Michael - google the Nazi connection to the JFK assassination by Mae Brussell.

I found this, and it is searchable.... https://ratical.org/ratville/JFK/Rebel_11-22-83.pdf

 

"Buckley served the CIA in Japan from 1950 to 1954.
He also did a stint with CIA in Mexico with E. Howard Hunt. Co-founder of YAF was Douglas Caddy, whose offices were

used by the CIA, Howard Hughes organization, at the time of Watergate illegal entries and other dirty tricks. "

..............

 

In 1961, a year after Buckley founded YAF, another conserva­tive organization was formed in Munich, Germany, calling itself CUSA, Conservatism USA. These were not students, but mem­bers of the U.S. army, soon to be mustered out, then to appear in Dallas, Texas, by November 1963. The host would be Robert Morris. 

...............

"Friday night I attended a gathering of the top conservatives in Dallas."

"The meeting was at the home of Dr. Robert Morris, President of the Defenders of American Liberty."

"Present were Mr. George Ward, Detective for Dallas City Police, Mr. Ken Thompson, editorial writer for the Dallas Morn­ ing News, Mr. Clyde Moore, former PR man for H.L. Hunt, for­ mer UPI writer. (Eight others)"

"I told them exactly what I wanted"

"Others suggested using an already existing movement, name the Young Americans for Freedom, with already 50,000 members."

"CUSA, as set up in Munich, is now an established fact in Dallas, only we are calling it YAF. I think you catch on".

"We are starting Munich chapters of YAF. "To spread to Stutt­ gart, Frankfurt, Heidelberg, Berlin, Kaiserslautern,"

"We are getting every top name in business, education, politics and religion to endorse YAF".
"The advisory board includes 37 Congressmen ... including

Sen. Strom Thurmond, Sen. John Tower, and Sen. Barry Goldwa­ ter. There is Ronald Reagan, Gen. Mark Clark, Gen. Charles Willoughby, John Wayne, etc."

Change all your records to read YAF".

"All those months in Munich were not wasted. I accomplished my task in Dallas. I need you here soon. I sold these people on each of you and they are expecting you to come to Dallas and play an important role".

"The days of leisure are over".
"We want to see you, Norman, Jim and Bill Burley back here in Dallas".
"Sheila and my brother will be here in August; Ken Glazebrook in Sept."

June 13, 1963, Larry Schmidt to B. Weissman in Munich, Germany. "

Edited November 5, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Paul Brancato]

5 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

I found this, and it is searchable.... https://ratical.org/ratville/JFK/Rebel_11-22-83.pdf

 

"Buckley served the CIA in Japan from 1950 to 1954.
He also did a stint with CIA in Mexico with E. Howard Hunt. Co-founder of YAF was Douglas Caddy, whose offices were

used by the CIA, Howard Hughes organization, at the time of Watergate illegal entries and other dirty tricks. "

..............

 

In 1961, a year after Buckley founded YAF, another conserva­tive organization was formed in Munich, Germany, calling itself CUSA, Conservatism USA. These were not students, but mem­bers of the U.S. army, soon to be mustered out, then to appear in Dallas, Texas, by November 1963. The host would be Robert Morris. 

...............

"Friday night I attended a gathering of the top conservatives in Dallas."

"The meeting was at the home of Dr. Robert Morris, President of the Defenders of American Liberty."

"Present were Mr. George Ward, Detective for Dallas City Police, Mr. Ken Thompson, editorial writer for the Dallas Morn­ ing News, Mr. Clyde Moore, former PR man for H.L. Hunt, for­ mer UPI writer. (Eight others)"

"I told them exactly what I wanted"

"Others suggested using an already existing movement, name the Young Americans for Freedom, with already 50,000 members."

"CUSA, as set up in Munich, is now an established fact in Dallas, only we are calling it YAF. I think you catch on".

"We are starting Munich chapters of YAF. "To spread to Stutt­ gart, Frankfurt, Heidelberg, Berlin, Kaiserslautern,"

"We are getting every top name in business, education, politics and religion to endorse YAF".
"The advisory board includes 37 Congressmen ... including

Sen. Strom Thurmond, Sen. John Tower, and Sen. Barry Goldwa­ ter. There is Ronald Reagan, Gen. Mark Clark, Gen. Charles Willoughby, John Wayne, etc."

Change all your records to read YAF".

"All those months in Munich were not wasted. I accomplished my task in Dallas. I need you here soon. I sold these people on each of you and they are expecting you to come to Dallas and play an important role".

"The days of leisure are over".
"We want to see you, Norman, Jim and Bill Burley back here in Dallas".
"Sheila and my brother will be here in August; Ken Glazebrook in Sept."

June 13, 1963, Larry Schmidt to B. Weissman in Munich, Germany. "

Thanks Michael. Funny how the German or Nazi connection leads to Walker, but not just Walker. I'm re-reading Brussell's article on the Nazi connection - again for the umpteenth time. I always find new things to ponder, and still think that her nose picked up the scent of the deepest conspiracy, one that intersects the JFK assassination in many ways. I used to listen to her radio broadcast, and after she died Dave Emory, who took over for her. John Judge was also a follower. Jim D told me here once that her files were still around. She wasn't the kind of researcher that investigators appreciate - no footnotes etc. I think what she did was scour the worldwide press and published material, putting things together, probably from a prodigious memory. But much of it checks out, and much more probably would if we had access to the nation's secrets. 

[Michael Clark]

Thanks for the commentary Paul.  I have not read enough of her stuff. That magazine I posted should be an interesting source in general going forward. I’ll admit that I have camped on my CT, so I now see more of what I am looking for rather than looking with an open mind. Mae and this magazine have caught my interest though. Thanks for the copy-paste.