Question for Don Roberdeau

[Tim Carroll]

Now I can show you visually how I accidentlly created "profileman". 

Well, in actual fact there is nothing to show really.

Alan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Huh?

Edited December 12, 2004 by Tim Carroll

[Shanet Clark]

Robardeau

Thanks, that is the issue I was asking about, that Tim and I were waiting for a third opinion on.

When you say Kennedy is facing 90 degrees away from Badgeman, Hudson the fence, etc., do you mean that you doubt that a shot came from the south knoll?

What if Kennedy was facing 150 degrees to the left? The right tear occipital damage points to a front left source.

So what do you think of the Classic Gunman? or as Jack White says Cartop Gunman? TIm Carroll strongly suggests the Nix telephoto lens strongly foreshortened the car to look like the gunman is leaning on it. House testimony reflected that if a man was leaning on a car back in there, he would be nine foot tall, so Tim logically, separated the Landau roof from the classic marksman figure,

ITEK corps apparently debunked the marksman as a play of light.

Do you believe it is a human figure, are you sure the car is that far back, could it just be a lookalike figure for whatever reason?

What do you thinkof the classic gunman at the break in the wall?

My big problem with him is that he stays too long in position, like a spotter.

SHANET

[Tim Carroll]

What if Kennedy was facing 150 degrees to the left? The right tear occipital damage points to a front left source.

My big problem with him is that he stays too long in position, like a spotter.

SHANET

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you mean "right" rear occipital?

How long is your calculation of the classic gunman staying "in position?"

Tim

[Alan Healy]

How long is your calculation of the classic gunman staying "in position?"

Tim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The classic gunman shape is only there in NIX for a couple seconds.

When NIX films the area again all we see are the light spots that make up your "profileman".

If one looks at this same area in BELL you will discover why they are just spots of light on the wall.

They are very clearly so flat, they can be nothing else.

Please look at the BELL film for us.

Tim I noticed the picture you had taken of yourself on the knoll from NIXs' position & I was wondering if you got one from Moormans' position too?

Alan

[Tim Carroll]

How long is your calculation of the classic gunman staying "in position?"

Tim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The classic gunman shape is only there in NIX for a couple seconds.

When NIX films the area again all we see are the light spots that make up your "profileman".

If one looks at this same area in BELL you will discover why they are just spots of light on the wall.

They are very clearly so flat, they can be nothing else.

Please look at the BELL film for us.

Tim I noticed the picture you had taken of yourself on the knoll from NIXs' position & I was wondering if you got one from Moormans' position too?

Alan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

First, "it's not my "profileman," as I never heard that term before you used it the other day.

Second, here is a frame from the Bell film which looks nothing like what you describe:

Bob Groden had one of his guys shoot a photo of me from the Moorman position, but bear in mind that I was overcompensating by 4' of height, to be able to have the "X" on the street in my line of sight.

Tim

Edited December 12, 2004 by Tim Carroll

[Alan Healy]

Second, here is a frame from the Bell film which looks nothing like what you describe:

Tim,

in order to analyse a white area in a photo that is being hit by direct sunlight one has to turn down the contrast to illiminate the glare.

Your capture not only has too much contrast but it is impossible to turn it down.

Thus it is a bad example & your statement above is meaningless.

Here is the same frame you used with a close up of the area in question

& I'll say again;

When you compare these areas of light hitting the pergola wall in both NIX & BELL it is very clear that it is obviously two dimensional(flat on the wall) & is impossible to be a person of any description.

I think it's reasonably clear in the one frame above but the moving footage of BELL leaves no doubt.

Bob Groden has one of his guys shoot a photo of me from the Moorman position, but bear in mind that I was overcompensating by 4' of height, to be able to have the "X" on the street in my line of sight.

Tim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

One of Bob's guys???

How many has he got there with him each day?

Did you happen to get Roberts' opinion on this topic?

Anyway Tim, thank you for these photos, they are rather spendid.

However, am I right in thinking that if you were stood four feet too high in both the NIX & MOORMAN examples, that we cannot use them to tell were the classic gunman shape should be in the real Moorman5?

Alan

[Tim Carroll]

Tim, thank you for these photos, they are rather spendid.  However, am I right in thinking that if you were stood four feet too high in both the NIX & MOORMAN examples, that we cannot use them to tell were the classic gunman shape should be in the real Moorman5?

Alan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Alan,

That is correct. I didn't want there to be a discrepency between my view of the "X" spot on the street (4' lower than JFK's head was) and my positioning for the Nix and Moorman recreations. In hindsight, that was a mistake. The overcompensation was intended to debunk the ITEK conclusion that a person at that location would have to have been standing 9' off the ground. I do believe the recreations accomplished that. I should have been crouched as low as possible to still have a line of sight to the heads of drivers passing by. Thus, the Moorman recreation particular emphasizes the degree of my overcompensation. Did you notice the difference between the clarity undermining of the light and shadow argument in the Bell frame I posted above?

Tim

Edited December 12, 2004 by Tim Carroll

[Alan Healy]

The overcompensation was intended to debunk the ITEK conclusion that a person at that location would have to have been standing 9' off the ground.  I do believe the recreations accomplished that.

Tim I thought the NIX photo was very good & that it lined up with the classic gunmen shape rather well but now I look at it properly I can see that you were out quite a bit, I'm sorry about that, it is still a useful photo which I'm glad to have.

Just out of interested, how did you know where to position your camerman?

Did you notice the difference between the clarity undermining of the light and shadow argument in the Bell frame I posted above?

Tim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tim, if your saying that the Bell frame you posted is better than mine for analysing the light hitting(whatever) on/near the pergoda wall, then I strongly dissagree.

One cannot determine what we are seeing through glare, you have to tone it down

Get rid of some of the contrast & watch the moving footage(BELL), whatever it is, it is flat on the wall.

Alan.

Btw, this is just "profileman" we are talking about here ok? I'm not talking about the classic gunman shape seen earlier only in NIX, that's a seperate issue.

[Tim Carroll]

Tim I thought the NIX photo was very good & that it lined up with the classic gunmen shape rather well but now I look at it properly I can see that you were out quite a bit, I'm sorry about that, it is still a useful photo which I'm glad to have.

Just out of interested, how did you know where to position your camerman?

Tim, if your saying that the Bell frame you posted is better than mine for analysing the light hitting(whatever) on/near the pergoda wall, then I strongly dissagree. One cannot determine what we are seeing through glare, you have to tone it down.  Get rid of some of the contrast & watch the moving footage(BELL), whatever it is, it is flat on the wall.

Alan.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Alan:

Shanet correctly noticed that I was a bit off in relation to the notch in the retaining wall with respect to the Nix recreation. The precise spot I had my wife take the photo from was the spot identified in Don Roberdeau's diagram. In hindsight, I wish that we had had walkie-talkies and multiple copies of the photos we were replicating. For the precise angle to have my right (viewer's left) arm protruding beyond the edge of the pergola, and to have been lined up with the notch, my wife needed to be standing slightly further east than the spot we used. Also, I was all the way back against the pergola; I would have appeared lower by moving closer to the retaining wall, which is a distinct possibility of the situation on 11/22/63, just as with BDM being up toward the retaining wall. I was trying to demonstrate that I could have been all the way back in that area between the wall and fence, up against the pergola, and in no way need to be 9' high. The closer I'd moved toward the retaining wall, as well as not keeping the "X" mark in the street in my view, I would have been in a very different position in the Moorman recreation.

We can agree to disagree about the need to "tone it down" with Bell. The photo I posted, and will repost here, is not toned down or enhanced in any way; and it appears to me to reveal a three dimensional figure:

Tim

[Don Roberdeau]

....Good Day Shanet.... In relation to the limousine's forward direction (0-degrees) at Zf-313, President KENNEDY was facing only 27-degrees left of limousine-forward at Zf-313; towards the extreme left vertical chromed front windshield frame. (You'll have to explain, clearer, what you are talking about in relation to saying something about the president facing 150-degrees)

....Precisely because President KENNEDY was facing nearly 90-degrees away from the photo-theorized "badge man," was facing nearly 90-degrees away from the photo-theorized "#5 man," and was facing nearly 90-degrees away from the HSCA-scientifically-determined+photo-theorized GK assassin locations at Zf-313, and, the medical evidence, as it exists, does not support that a high velocity projectile exited the left half of President KENNEDY's head, IMHO, my present conclusion about what is seen in Zf-312 to 313 is that none of the above 3 assassins (whether one or all 3 existed in reality) struck the president in the head between 312 and 313 with a high velocity projectile. (interestingly, the HSCA did conclud that the HSCA-scientifically-determined assassin's shot did miss at Zf-299)

An assassin located even more forward of President KENNEDY is, IMHO, more likely--again, given the medical evidence as it exists (see below). For 29+ years I have never completely discounted that an assassin firing from the overpass north side vertical sewer impacted the head with a mechanically-suppress-fired bullet (a.k.a. a "silenced" bullet)--President KENNEDY's head then torso violent snaps back-up-and-left motion seems, IMHO, to directionally point to a more-forward-of-JFK direction than the fence corner/retaining wall area his head was nearly perpendicular to at 313....additionally, recent shooting recreations utilizing lasers have demonstrated clearly to me that a shot fired from that overpass north side sewer (as well as the overpass' south side, clearing the upper windshield chrome frame by 2" to 4" but only between the pushed-upwards sun visors) would have been clear and not tree trunks unobstructed from 315 to 315, and then, the sewer itself would have aforded a very rapid way to hide, then escape completely undetected.... the one consideration that creates slight doubts in my mind is the 2 men ((labeled on my DP map as "B-1" and "B-2")) who were seen in the BELL film just seconds after the attack standing right where the overpass angles more eastward, only about 25' from where such a overpass north side vertical sewer assassin could have fired unobstructed from.... it seems that if B-1 and B-2 were not co-conspirators (HOLLAND may have spoke of them as the railroad car inspectors he did not know the names of) that they would have heard a shot fired from only 25' away and reacted to capture the assassin or, at the very least, B-1 and/or B-2 would have told the authorities what they heard/saw.... or maybe, B-1 and B-2 saw that assassin or heard a shot from closeby but just decided not to get involved.... then again, B-1 and B-2 have never been identified, so, who is to say?; maybe B-1 and B-2 were, indeed, co-conspirator spotters stationed deliberately at that overpass corner to prevent the overpass and D.P.D. witnesses from coming around that corner during the attack?)

That is not to say --if one or all of those 3 theorized assassins existed in reality-- that he/they fired a shot that completely missed hitting anyone and the limo.

That being said, possibly one of those 3 assassins -if he actually existed- possibly could have fired a micro-second-trailing shot just after the 312/313 explosion, but fired it before 315 (because the president, after a 314 pause in movement, first starts moving rearward at 315) that penetrated the already-existing 312/313-created wound, with the 313-to-315 second impacting bullet causing the violent back/left head/torso snap.... From speaking with Dr. ROBERTSON and other medical professionals (which I am certainly not) there does seem to be some probative supporting evidence for nearly simultaneous double head impacts. Some warrenatti-apologists say of the double head impact theory that 2 different-located assassins could not have possibly deliberately timed 2 separate shots so close together.... to which I say, "Who is claiming that 2 different head impacting assassins deliberately timed their shots that way.... in the real and the meta-physical world, the reality is that 2 separate events can, very well, occur nearly, or, exactly, simultaneously."

....Some seeming support for 2 nearly simultaneous head impacts....

....Exploring the forensic head blood splatter and head spray evidence, at 313 and after 313 there are, undeniably by anyone, several large head pieces moving forward in 313.... ALTGENS stated to TRASK that headmatter trajected almost 40' forward to land near ALTGENS feet.... WILLIAM HARPER diagramed he found the "Harper skull fragment" some 117' forward of the president.... the windshield frame dent and glass crack found forward.... 3 bullet frags found forward, and basically centered under NELLIE"s limo seat (one was found ((or was it placed?)) within the floor seat-track-channel controlling the forward/rear movement of her seat).... 2 large bullet frags found forward circa the limo's front bench seat.... blood and matter found on the inside and outside front left windshield glass and found only on the inside front right windshield glass.... and there were a percentage of witnesses who detected an above-their-head gunfire source from the Elm/Houston intersection....

....yet....

we also have CHARLES BREHM the World War II/Korean war, battles-experienced veteran vividly detailing for us that he was attracted to observe a distinct piece of something (i.e. a piece big enough to distinctly separate and see) traject rearward and leftward towards BREHM (BREHM's earliest, very first 12:45 pm statement about a shots source was "the shots came from in front of or beside the president").... the WIEGMAN film seeming to show smoke lingering under the picket fence corner oak tree foliage windbreak--exactly where the HSCA-determined assassin was located and possibly barely seen in the MOORMAN #5 polaroid photo.... many (7 or 8) overpass witnesses seeing that picket fence corner gunsmoke.... ED HOFFMAN, JEAN HILL, and LEE BOWERS statements claiming to have seen a suspicious grassy knoll person (HOFFMAN claims to have seen gunsmoke then the rifle; HILL the gunsmoke-but she claimed it only years later; BOWERS alluded to something that attracted his eye but he waited 3 years to publicly claim that).... the MOORMAN #5 polaroid photo, WILLIS photo, NIX film, MUCHMORE film, and the DPD dictabelt all seeming to show the presence of someone(s) on the GK.... ALTGENS telling LANE in 1965 that just before the president came through several persons suddenly appeared in the GK/fence/wall area--one of which he seemed to remember as being D.P.D.-uniformed.... ROSEMARY WILLIS's ultrafast headsnap westward towards the grassy knoll (which I discovered; please read from the link below, which is after my signature, and also contains what I think is the distinct possibility of from where a Z-313 shot really came from).... overpass earwitnesses and a percentage of ear witnesses who detected a gunfire source from the area west of the TSBD.... several witnesses described that the last shot (as with the first "firecracker"/"backfire"-sounding shot) that they remembered hearing sounded noticeably different than the other shots.... many "LN-inconvenient" witnesses who have stated they heard a muzzle blast or mechanically-suppressed bullet bow shockwave distinctly AFTER they had already seen the head explode (especially closest-to-President KENNEDY witnesses; one of which I am completing my interviews with and will be soon detailing her important observations--two observations of hers being VERY important, and who has only spoken with 2 other researchers in the last 41+ years).... D.P.D. SMITH encountering an "agent" and smelling gunsmoke.... MALCOLM SUMMERS (and people who SUMMERS said were near him when they also ran behind the GK) and GORDON ARNOLD claiming to encounter someone who was armed.... street level and motorcade street level witnesses, 60'-84' below the supposed "snipers lair," smelling gunsmoke when the wind was blowing northeastward TOWARDS the TSBD.... D.P.D. HARKNESS encountering several armed men in suits behind the TSBD within minutes.... WORRELL seeing a man dash out the TSBD rear running northeast within 2-3 minutes.... the NIX film seems to show headmatter moving rearward across the limo trunk.... HARGIS was hit with something hard enough for him to first think he had been shot and he and MARTIN were both splattered with blood and matter.... KINNEY in he SS-followup car has his left arm and left windshield splattered.... JEAN HILL warrenatti-testifies that an "agent" told her that a DP-watching "agent" saw something kick up debris (or the "agent" saw headmatter debris) close to her feet.... CLINT HILL's suit has a small amount of headmatter splattered onto it.... Mrs. KENNEDY's face --even though her face was on the left side of --and about even with, height-wise-- the president at 313-- is splattered (her testimony is very interesting, once you understand it timestamped with what we see in the ZAPRUDER film--among other considerations, she testified that she saw (i.e. she was ATTRACTED by movement to view) a flesh colored piece of skull be detached--yet, as is clearly seen in the Z-film, her face is tilted downward and her headtop (and eyes) are roughly even with President KENNEDY's headtop (and eyes) until the early Zf-320's--meaning only one of two possibilities--either she saw the result of a second projectile penetrating an already-existing gaping wound and forced the piece of skull to detach that she observed, or, when the president's head snapped violently backwards the violent headsnapping backwards flung out the piece of skull that she observed.

....As I mentioned, I am not a medical professional (and because of that I have always strived to speak with medical professionals as much as possible and understand the assassination medical evidence interpretations as much as I can). The "LN-conveniently"-sized 6.5 mm, "LN-conveniently"-nearly-round piece of bullet fragment that was never testified to/spoken/written about by any of the Bethesda "medical professionals" nor witnesses has bothered me for over 29 years. It peaks my curiousity when this "LN-convenient" bullet fragment ---I call it the "magic 6.5 mm bullet fragment"--- "magically," suddenly, is seen on the x-rays when the x-rays started to be first examined in the late-60's. It peaks my curiousity when we are told to accept that a high-velocity projectile, "LN-conveniently"-supposedly fired from the rear, suddenly appears and is noticed on the x-rays at a precise location some 4" above the warrenatti-theorized entrance point, embedded (meaning the "magic 6.5 mm bullet fragment" not only stopped suddenly after trajecting at a warrenatti 1800-2000 feet-per-second velocity, but also meaning that --in the world of warrenatti apologists-- the military-specification fully-metal-jacketed "magic 6.5 mm bullet fragment" fragmented while it first entered the skull at 1800 to 2000 feet-per-second) and also simultaneously embedded onto the OUTSIDE of the skull.

....I have additional considerations that all are interelated to what happened that day (and the years that have followed), and will return to this thread when I have more time.

....and Shanet.... my last name is, correctly, listed everywhere, and, correctly, spelled Roberdeau....
My family, friends, and aquaintances all find it much easier to write and call me Don

:{)-]

Best Regards in Research,

+ ++Don

Donald Roberdeau

United States Navy
U.S.S. John F. Kennedy, CV-67, plank walker
Sooner, or later, The Truth emerges clearly

For your key considerations + independent determinations....

Homepages Website: "Men of Courage": President Kennedy-elimination Evidence, Witnesses,

Photographers, Outstanding Researchers Discoveries, Suspects, + Key Considerations....

http://droberdeau.blogspot.com/2009/08/1-men-of-courage-jfk-assassination_09.html

The Dealey Plaza Detailed Map: Documented 11-22-63 Victims Precise Locations +

Reactions, Evidence, Witnesses Locations, Photographers, Suspected Bullet Trajectories,

Outstanding Researchers Discoveries, + Important Information + Key Considerations, in One

Convenient Resource....

http://i.imgur.com/rGmmWxD.gif

( updated map, + new information )

Discovery: Very Close JFK Assassination Witness ROSEMARY WILLIS's
Zapruder Film Documented 2nd Head Snap: West, Ultrafast, and Directly

Towards the Grassy Knoll ....

http://droberdeau.blogspot.com/2011/01/discovery-close-jfk-assassination.html

Visual Report: The First Bullet Impact Into President Kennedy: While JFK was Still Hidden

Under the "Magic-limbed-ricochet-tree"....

http://i.imgur.com/rfRH5jX.gif

Visual Report: Reality Versus C.A.D. : the Real World, versus, Garbage-in-garbage-out....

http://i.imgur.com/r8Ga26x.gif

T ogether
E veryone
A chieves
M ore


For the United States:

http://www.dhs.gov

"From a moral standpoint, Johnson had no use for religion except for the political benefits that it bestowed upon him. He had no use for the sanctity of marriage except for the voting benefits it offered to him as a 'married man.' And, his desire for alcohol, just like with sex, was excessive. In short, moral rules relating to his personal conduct had no effect on stopping him from getting what he wanted."

----CRAIG ZIRBEL, summarizing LBJ's amoral characteristics that may have contributed, along with 4 on-going criminal investigations implicating LBJ, to LBJ's motivations for wanting President KENNEDY assassinated, "The Texas Connection" (pg.108)

"How did it happen they ("they"?!!) hit Connally?"

- LBJ, despite the multitude of "lone nut" statements the previous 7 days, during a phone conversation with his longtime friend, nearly-nextdoor-neighbor, longtime political cronie, & soon-to-be-appointed-"for-life" F.B.I. Director, J. EDGAR HOOVER, 29NOV63

Edited March 25, 2016 by Don Roberdeau

[Shanet Clark]

Don Roberdeau

A very important post.

Walks me thru a guided text of the bitmap you constructed, so, thanks.

My reference to a possible 150 degree range for JFK at impact.

You say he was turned 27 degrees away from forward, add that to the ninety degrees to his right, equals 117 degrees, he was 117 degrees away from facing Zapruder and the Pergola ( at 150 degrees I was guessing at a range, which was only 33 degrees larger than your fact, the 117 degrees counterclockwise from Zapruder.

The complicated ballistics done point to twin and near simultaneous headshots.

The convenient 6.5 fragment Xray is bogus. In the scalp, a round end of a 6.5?

Your work certainly points to an abundance of shots from the rear, and the witnesses mainly indicate a grassy knoll source, and the sewer drain is part of the Triple overpass, which is a putative triangle, for a triangulated volly, with radio spotters and men close in. There was no return fire.

Edited December 14, 2004 by Shanet Clark