Did the Dallas Radical Right kill JFK?

[Mathias Baumann]

7 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

You have some good points, here, Kirk.

Look at the evidence - I've posted lots of it in this thread alone, much of it newly released in 2017.

1. The evidence indicates Hoover was afraid of Walker and the radical right to a degree of obsession only surpassed by his fascination with communists.   The FBI traffic from the Little Rock High School episode until the Ole Miss episode puts the radical right and Walker on a threat scale or level of interest equal to Cuba or drug traffickers.  There's lots of it, weekly.  

2. From the Ole Miss riots, which was a General Edwin Walker production and which ended with Walker in a psychiatric prison under RFK's orders, the FBI internal communications traffic is nothing less than dominated by informants, reports, infiltrations and strategy discussions related to the radical right.  By the summer of 63 Hoover is sending and receiving 5 or 10 teletypes/airtels a week about Walker, the Minutemen, the KKK, and the Birchers - meanwhile the CPUSA has receded in importance to perhaps one mention per week.   

3. From my reading of Hoover's communications there's one thing he's trying to accomplish at all times - the protection of the FBI.  Insofar as Hoover embodies the FBI, you can also say he's trying to accomplish two things - the protection of the FBI and the protection of Hoover.  All else is of less importance, although its clear in his mind that protecting the FBI is equivalent to protecting America.

4. But there are places in history where Hoover's ideological merger of the FBI's best interests with the American people's best interests went wrong - and covering up the JFK assassination was one of them.  The mafia was another one.   There are others.   By 1pm on 22 November, Hoover knows there is a conspiracy and he knows the FBI and CIA had nothing to do with it.  He's already had the Radical Right infiltrated and knows they've been actively stalking Kennedy and calling for his death.  In the immediate hours after the murder, the FBI teletypes are on fire with dozens of field offices reporting to Hoover on what topic?

...the whereabouts of the Radical Right.  The order from Hoover on 22 November to dozens of field offices was to pinpoint everyone on the Right and find out who was in Dallas, and who was back in Alabama burning crosses, who was drunk in a bar, etc.   Hoover knows by the evening of the 22nd 99% of the assassination truth.  He must decide between revealing the truth (which might destroy the FBI and himself) ... or ... creating every conspirator's favorite coverup - the Lone Nut.

5. Now, let me throw this out there, politically incorrect as it will be.  Hoover is gay.  General Edwin Walker is gay.  Garrison sloppily called this a homosexual thrill killing - which was wrong, but in 1963 it could have easily been portrayed that way.  Hoover-Walker-Ferrie-Shaw-and a motley selection of their boyfriends (who were minor witnesses/characters/confidants in the conspiracy or FBI in general) means this can come off, if handled the wrong way, as: all gay people must be evil....Hoover wanted to avoid this revelation much more than anything else he risked revealing.  

A dead president on Hoover's watch is bad.  Dangerous. An existential risk for the FBI.  A dead president PLUS unravelling the whole unseemly world of pimps, hustlers, Bourbon Street rent boys, drug abuse, and what was then considered sexual "deviance" was a bigger scare factor to Hoover than the American people revolting which you mention above.

Going after Walker means the FBI is revealed as coddling a presidential murderer.  Going after the Radical Right means Hoover becomes an outed gay man in 1963 America.  Revealing the truth of the assassination means the end of himself and the FBI in Hoover's mind.  Hoover and LBJ have their best choice in fabricating the coverup, the Lone Nut theory.  This they knew was risky and dangerous, and would eventually over the years fail.

So, IMO, it isn't as you say (in summarizing Paul Trejo's CT) that the risk of the people's backlash for exposing (or protecting) the radical right per se is motivating Hoover: Hoover is motivated by protecting the FBI aka Hoover.   This is Hoover's critical moment - either way he takes this is dangerous. The post-assassination is 100% a Hoover production.  Look at the fallout - we all know the coverup is a bunch of bullsh*t and Hoover knew that the FBI men would see this on day one - and he knew the truth would leak out slowly but surely over the years.  But he knew this was his best chance to survive.

6. Anyway, please take it back to the evidence.  Hoover was all over the radical right and by 63 probably considers them the #1 domestic threat, greater than the communists; as indicated by internal FBI communications now released.  On 22 November Hoover and the FBI throw all resources at the Radical Right and know the answer by bedtime....

...then comes the coverup.

 

regards

Jason

 

Jason,

it wasn't Hoover who sabotaged the HSCA but George Joannides from the CIA.

[Paul Brancato]

I have the feeling that we won't be seeing the Joannides documents in this release. 

As for Hoover, he never went after the Ultra right, people with guns and violent rhetoric, or the criminal enterprise that we call Mafia, but he persecuted the relatively harmless and unarmed CPUSA for decades. For those that seek to paint Hoover as something other than a rightist himself, it's been proven that he hounded MLK to his death, even sending him a letter suggesting that he just get it over with and commit suicide. I find it hard to believe that his only motivation for covering up the crime of the century was self preservation, or fear of exposure as a gay man. 

[Paul Trejo]

The tendency to blame the "Eastern Establishment" was a 1950's ploy by the Radical Right, and exploited by the John Birch Society.

After McCarthy and J. Edgar Hoover fully decimated Marxism in the USA, the US Left-wing has had no choice but to borrow their ideology from some other small-businessman's idiotic movement -- and the John Birch Society was closest to hand.

The tendency to refrain from pinpointing the Radical Right in the JFK assassination -- even from Left-wingers -- still comes from the Radical Right.

One of the first people to blame the CIA for the JFK assassination was Revilo P. Oliver of the John Birch Society, which he did in 1964 in his Warren Commission testimony.

The Radical Right still lives on today -- both in Charlottesville and in the CIA-did-it CTers.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited October 18, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

5 hours ago, Mathias Baumann said:

Jason,

it wasn't Hoover who sabotaged the HSCA but George Joannides from the CIA.

Mathias,

The HSCA was not 'sabotaged' at all.   The HSCA knew from the start that they could not see the thousands of JFK documents hidden away by US Supreme Court Chief Justice Earl Warren -- and LBJ -- without a Presidential approval.  

It was not in the interest of Jimmy Carter -- during the Cold War -- to release those documents.

Therefore, the HSCA had to struggle under the same burden as the rest of America -- "you can think what you want, but you can't see the crucial JFK documents."

It wasn't sabotage.  It's was US Domestic Policy about the JFK Records.

Only a President could change that Policy.   In 1992, President GHW Bush changed that US Policy with the JFK Record Act.   He said that in 25 years all the JFK Records would be released.   Well, that deadline comes due in only eight days from this writing.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited October 18, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Roger DeLaria]

11 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Roger,

It's an amazing letter.

This letter from Dr Miller is the best of dozens like it, but there's more.  The newly released documents show at least dozens of people write Hoover and the Warren Commission with bits and pieces like,

• "I saw JoeBob load 4 rifles into the trunk of his car on November 19th and he told me he was joining the Minutemen in Dallas for the weekend"
• "I overheard a phone call saying "Walker will get Kennedy in Dallas or die trying."
• "A drunk guy fell down in the men's room and when I helped him up he told me Walker's going to get Kennedy and blame it on some guy who lived in Russia."
• "General Walker showed up looking for expert marksmen...."
• + on and on little bits and pieces like this, often from bartenders, taxi drivers, gas station attendants and others who we often talk in front of as if they aren't here.

I finished Dallas 1963 a few days ago.   I like the year-long chronology.   An outstanding insight into the mood and power brokers of the era....agree?

 

regards,

Jason

I just got back to Dallas 1963 a few days ago, and am getting close to the end. It's a good snapshot of the ugly environment in Dallas at the time. 

Edited October 18, 2017 by Roger DeLaria

[George Sawtelle]

Jason

What you provide with the FBI documentation is not evidence. It's documentation that has not been proven in a court of law to be evidence. Most of it is hearsay and speculation.

Plus the CIA helped cover-up the crime also. It wasn't only the FBI.

You seem stuck on the radical right but with out any proof. If you have these guys cold then where are the names. Who were the shooters? 

[David Andrews]

5 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

The tendency to blame the "Eastern Establishment" was a 1950's ploy by the Radical Right, and exploited by the John Birch Society.

After McCarthy and J. Edgar Hoover fully decimated Marxism in the USA, the US Left-wing has had no choice but to borrow their ideology from some other small-businessman's idiotic movement -- and the John Birch Society was closest to hand.

The tendency to refrain from pinpointing the Radical Right in the JFK assassination -- even from Left-wingers -- still comes from the Radical Right.

One of the first people to blame the CIA for the JFK assassination was Revilo P. Oliver of the John Birch Society, which he did in 1964 in his Warren Commission testimony.

The Radical Right still lives on today -- both in Charlottesville and in the CIA-did-it CTers.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Harriman and Lodge got Diem killed.  The Rockefellers were their patrons.  Allen Dulles had worked for the gang through Sullivan & Cromwell. Hunt, Helms and Phillips were Dulles' protégés.  Does the Better Business Bureau boast such a lineage?

[George Sawtelle]

Jason

No one from the CIA, agent or contract agent, would work with the radical right to kill Kennedy simply because the radical right had no assurrance that their crime would be covered-up. No one would have their back.

However in working with Dulles to kill Kennedy the rogue agents knew the CIA would have their back and do all they could to cover-up the crime and blame a patsy.

 

[Jason Ward]

13 hours ago, Mathias Baumann said:

Jason,

it wasn't Hoover who sabotaged the HSCA but George Joannides from the CIA.

Mathias,

The HSCA was not sabotaged.

Read the 2017 released documents.  Everything's there.

Joannides cared about one thing only - Cuba - which is almost totally irrelevant to the assassination.  He hid the names of still-living Cubans whose lives were at risk if exposed, and hid the operational details which in turn could imply the names of those involved.  There was a little bit more he hid in Europe and Asia, but always related to Cuban diplomats or Cuban exiles or CIA operatives there who had previously been in on the massive Cuban fiasco.

The Cuban crap is a complete sideshow to the assassination.  What Joannides hid is largely available at the Mary Ferrell site, and unless you are interested in information like the names of Cuban diplomats in Russia on the CIA payroll in 1963 you will find nothing useful.

LOTS and lots more in previously redacted HSCA materials newly released in 2017 are in fact very useful to the assassination researcher - not that I expect many here to actually do research and read it.  It is easier to have the CT industry tell you what you want to hear is in the newly released files.  {not you personally, Mathias, just "you" as in the general 3rd person}

regards,

Jason

Edited October 18, 2017 by Jason Ward

[Jason Ward]

3 hours ago, David Andrews said:

Harriman and Lodge got Diem killed.  The Rockefellers were their patrons.  Allen Dulles had worked for the gang through Sullivan & Cromwell. Hunt, Helms and Phillips were Dulles' protégés.  Does the Better Business Bureau boast such a lineage?

The president of the United States, John F Kennedy, authorized the CIA in Saigon to explore regime change up to and including the assassination of Diem.   

Diem's ouster is well documented - like all CIA operations.

There is zero evidence in the entire history of mankind of a CIA unilateral operation, nor some massive conspiracy of the "East Coast Establishment," acting contrary to the legal authorizations of an elected president.  

Nor can the Diem removal sustain any parallel to the JFK assassination because the CIA-did-it crowd claims the CIA produces no evidence whatsoever in covert operations - despite the fact that Diem's death, Guatemala, Mosaddegh, and every other CIA production great and small is documented ad infinitum to an historical certainty.  

 

Jason

[George Sawtelle]

Jason

You said ... "Joannides cared about one thing only - Cuba - which is almost totally irrelevant to the assassination. He hid the names of etc.etc.etc. ........ the massive Cuban fiasco."

How do you know what Joannides cared about? And how much room is there between almost totally irrelevant and totally irrelevant? Is this speculation or do you have documentation?

Reading your posts and reading Paul's you are getting a lot like Paul. When you first started posting you seemed so level headed but now you're Paul's alter ego.

[Jason Ward]

8 hours ago, Roger DeLaria said:

I just got back to Dallas 1963 a few days ago, and am getting close to the end. It's a good snapshot of the ugly environment in Dallas at the time. 

I've been thinking a good analogy might be that the exact same characters and mindset we see in Selma, Alabama or Bogalusa, Louisiana, or Jackson, Mississippi are in place in Dallas in 1963.  The big difference is that the other guys are largely poor backwards rednecks with little power and influence, while the boys in Dallas found themselves on a pile of money and power beyond their experience.   In short, a bunch of southern good ole boy rednecks got lucky by moving to Dallas in the 20s or 30s and found themselves of almost equal power to the elite of Chicago or LA.   In any case, they were as rich or richer than the elite of more traditional power centers, it seems.  Thoughts?

 

Roger,  here's some more Dallas evidence to chew on.   If one reads the FBI internal communications consecutively for any period (a week a month a year), it's clear where their top efforts are  focused during the fall of 63.

...men like John Masen.  

 

1. He's almost completely off the radar because even creative fantasy cannot connect him to the CIA.  But on a very important date who does Hoover look for ?

John Masen.

A Dallas gun dealer.

 

 

 

2. This is an interesting person and date and crime, don't you think?  John Masen - interesting guy.

 

 

3. ...and how fascinating it is that the man John Masen, arrested in Dallas with automatic weapons crimes in November of 63, wanted by Hoover on 22 November, in turn is shown as a suspected pal with none other than General Edwin Walker:

 

 

Edited October 19, 2017 by Jason Ward

[Michael Clark]

26 minutes ago, Jason Ward said:

The president of the United States, John F Kennedy, authorized the CIA in Saigon to explore regime change up to and including the assassination of Diem.   

Diem's ouster is well documented - like all CIA operations.

There is zero evidence in the entire history of mankind of a CIA unilateral operation, nor some massive conspiracy of the "East Coast Establishment," acting contrary to the legal authorizations of an elected president.  

Nor can the Diem removal sustain any parallel to the JFK assassination because the CIA-did-it crowd claims the CIA produces no evidence whatsoever in covert operations - despite the fact that Diem's death, Guatemala, Mosaddegh, and every other CIA production great and small is documented ad infinitum to an historical certainty.  

 

Jason

Jason, you have moved-on to, just like Paul Trejo, making bogus claims of fact, cherry-picking, as much as is necessary, and beyond, to bail out your bogus theory. Trejo claims that CIA operatives and agents, including E. Howard Hunt did-it. He just claims that they weren't on the clock at 12:30 PM on 11-22-63; it's absurd. Hunt was William Buckley Jr.s boss when they were both CIA and worked in Mexico City. Buckley was The Godfather to Hunts Children. Buckley was a founding member of the Young Republicans For Freedom, the Radical Right group who were the young Turks of the Eastern Establishment. They orchestrated the assassination.

[Michael Clark]

26 minutes ago, Jason Ward said:

I've been thinking a good analogy might be that the exact same characters and mindset we see in Selma, Alabama or Bogalusa, Louisiana, or Jackson, Mississippi are in place in Dallas in 1963.  The big difference is that the other guys are largely poor backwards rednecks with little power and influence, while the boys in Dallas found themselves on a pile of money and power beyond their experience.   In short, a bunch of southern good ole boy rednecks got lucky by moving to Dallas in the 20s or 30s and found themselves of almost equal power to the elite of Chicago or LA.   In any case, they were as rich or richer than the elite of more traditional power centers, it seems.  Thoughts?

 

Roger,  here's some more Dallas evidence to chew on.   If one reads the FBI internal communications consecutively for any period (a week a month a year), it's clear where their top efforts are  focused during the fall of 63.

...men like John Masen.  

 

1. He's almost completely off the radar because even creative fantasy cannot connect him to the CIA.  But on a very important date who does Hoover look for ?

John Masen.

A Dallas gun dealer.

 

 

 

2. This is an interesting person and date and crime, don't you think?  John Masen - interesting guy.

 

 

3. ...and how fascinating it is that the man John Masen, arrested in Dallas with automatic weapons crimes in November of 63, wanted by Hoover on 22 November, in turn is shown as a suspected pal with none other than General Edwin Walker:

 

 

Jason, All the Racist and knob headed rightist factions in Texas and the south did is create noise to obscure the plot before, and leave a dusty trail behind , after the assassination. Your documents prove that over and over again.Oh yeah, they murdered a bunch of journalists an others who were unfortunate enough to know something of the truth, and were courageous enough to speak the truth.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Paul Brancato]

Jason - you are seriously uneducated about US history.

and btw, Mason is very interesting, especially in regards to the missing armory weapons. But your posts while interesting, are only a part of the story. Like Trejo, you turn a blind eye to the rest, and ignore, painfully, all the incredible work that has gone before you.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Paul Brancato