The Discoveries of Jim Garrison

[James DiEugenio]

Cliff:

You have been pounding this drum for years, decades, what, maybe generations?

Fine.

I beg to disagree.  

[Cliff Varnell]

2 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Cliff:

You have been pounding this drum for years, decades, what, maybe generations?

And no one has challenged my points.  Some like Jon Tidd agree with me, while others just get pissy and accuse me of having an agenda.

2 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Fine.

I beg to disagree.  

On one hand you say that Dallas wasn't the primary assassination venue, but the movements of the Dallas patsy were central to the plot to kill Kennedy?

A contradiction of logic.

 

[James DiEugenio]

Cliff, you cannot argue a sentence without distorting something.

Dallas was the primary setting for the successful plot. Which, of course, Chicago was not.  (Although I should note that some people, like Drago and Armstrong, do not consider that a real attempt.  They consider it something like a dress rehearsal.  I do not.)

In the successful Dallas plot, MC was important.  I actually think it was crucial.  And the fact that the MC false trail was being laid down weeks in advance on Oswald gives credence to the concept that both JFK and Oswald were being ensnared in the same plot.

[Cliff Varnell]

Just now, James DiEugenio said:

Cliff, you cannot argue a sentence without distorting something.

Dallas was the primary setting for the successful plot. Which, of course, Chicago was not.  (Although I should note that some people, like Drago and Armstrong, do not consider that a real attempt.  They consider it something like a dress rehearsal.  I do not.)

In the successful Dallas plot, MC was important.

Important to the framing of Oswald.  But if Oswald had died in a car crash on the way to work that morning the plot wouldn't have been called off.

Or do you argue otherwise?

Just now, James DiEugenio said:

 I actually think it was crucial.  

It wouldn't have proven crucial in Chicago, why was it crucial in Dallas?  They had plenty of back-up patsies...

Just now, James DiEugenio said:

 

And the fact that the MC false trail was being laid down weeks in advance on Oswald gives credence to the concept that both JFK and Oswald were being ensnared in the same plot.

The plots to kill JFK and Oswald were no doubt orchestrated from the top, but that doesn't mean they involved the same personnel.

What did JFK's assassins need to know about Oswald?

Other than time and place of the hit, what did Oswald's handlers need to know about JFK's killers?

 

[James DiEugenio]

Cliff,

You will not read Bleau's article.  Fine.  But then I will not argue about there being different plots, but similar designs.

And I suppose it was just a coincidence that Hunt and Phillips were in Dallas on 11/22/63, and that Phillips ran the anti FPCC campaign and Hunt set up the CRC chapters.

 

 

[Cliff Varnell]

I have productive disagreements with Paul Bleau

Analyzing what has already been written and identifying chokeholds

The amount of evidence that there is a conspiracy is devastating. The problem the research community faces is the amount of overkill that sometimes is debatable: examples include photo interpretation, some witness testimony, inside info from mistresses, supposed shooter confessions to name but a few. These abstract details tend to cloud the issue by deviating from what Malcolm Blunt calls chokeholds.

Here are the ones I found most convincing:

1. The debunking of the Magic Bullet theory
2. What Dealey Plaza and Parkland Hospital witnesses saw (and Bethesda personnel as well) and what the Zapruder film showed
3. The impersonation and attempted framing of Oswald in Mexico City a few weeks before the assassination
4. The Silvia Odio incident
5. Oswald’s relationship with David Ferrie, Clay Shaw, Guy Bannister, Cuban exiles and Intelligence
6. Jack Ruby’s connections, comportment and later statements
7. CIA’s handling of Oswald’s files
8. David Atlee Phillips’ connections to Oswald, post assassination propaganda and sheep-dipping
9. The timely lack of security in a hostile environment during a threatening period
10. The equally terrible investigation effort and investigation sabotage that followed
11. The strong consensus of post-Warren Commission investigations and investigators/insiders that the Warren Commission version of events is full of holes

 

[Cliff Varnell]

17 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Cliff,

You will not read Bleau's article.  Fine.  But then I will not argue about there being different plots, but similar designs.

And I suppose it was just a coincidence that Hunt and Phillips were in Dallas on 11/22/63, and that Phillips ran the anti FPCC campaign and Hunt set up the CRC chapters.

James Angleton screwed the pooch.  He had two top psy-war operations specialists Edward Lansdale and David A. Phillips -- frame Lee Oswald as an agent of Fidel and murder him within 45 minutes after Kennedy.

But the patsy was captured alive, and the whole Red Agent Oswald plan fell through.

Hunt was the one designated for sacrifice if the plot went awry.  He wore the patsy jacket subsequently in Watergate.

 

Edited September 15, 2017 by Cliff Varnell

[Paul Brancato]

6 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Let me add another Garrison first.  Again, one which no one talks about, or even knows about.

Edwin Black's long lost essay on the Chicago Plot to kill JFK was one of the most important pieces written on the subject in the entire decade of the seventies. For whatever reason, it was  ignored by the group of authors who took the forefront about that time i.e. Paul Hoch, Peter Scott, Summers and Evica.  

It was rediscovered in the nineties and it later had a prominent role in Jim Douglass' book, JFK and the Unspeakable.

But what very few people know is that Jim Garrison sent one of his investigators to interview Abe Bolden while he was in prison.  That predates Edwin Black's essay by about 8 years.

And the work by both Black and Douglass, which showed all the similarities between the two plots indicates that the city of Dallas was not primary in the conspiracy.  For the people planning the assassination, it was a convenient backdrop.  And let us never forget the codename of the guy who dropped a dime to inform the FBI about the Chicago Plot.

It was 'Lee'.

Addendum: Please read this fine article which outlines and compares the three previous scenarios to kill JFK, in Chicago, LA and Tampa.  Pay special attention to the final chart in which Paul outlines the similar techniques used.

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/the-three-failed-plots-to-kill-jfk-the-historians-guide-on-how-to-research-his-assassination

Great article Jim. Thanks. A few points or questions:

are the files that were found at the Paine house during the first search that subsequently disappeared perhaps Michael Paine's? 

Vincent Lee seems to have been a CIA or FBI plant. Seeing as the FPCC was never powerful, and by 1963 dying, there must be another reason for Amsanta, as Newman might say one operation piggybacking on another. I thought all this was meant to discredit the FPCC, but this article makes me think it was far more insidious, namely to be used as a tool to kill two birds - JFK and Castro. So FPCC became a subset of an Executive Action Op.

i no longer doubt that ZRRIFLE Executive Action William Harvey is the key. However, I still hold on to the idea that the political aim of getting rid of Castro did not need a dead president. If JFK had survived an attempt to kill him by a Castro Cuban that would have been enough. So for me the fact that he was murdered suggests another aim, in this case getting rid of a Traitor. That's why I suspect it was more than a few rogue CIA guys hiring some mob shooters. Lemnitzer in charge of NATO forces put him in control of the fascist Gladio network. For all intents and purposes there is no philosophical difference between the hostile ultra right, which includes many generals and colonels and white supremacists and antisemites and their protectors within government, and the Nazis and post ww2 fascists alive and well and protected and used by our national security state. 

Hiw does this tie in with the scenario that there were several plots to kill JFK, several similar patsies (this research makes it abundantly clear that Oswald was a patsy and not a conspirator) but Dallas was the ultimate location chosen? So far the research we have on the alternative plots in Chicago, Tampa, Miami, maybe San Antonio, doesn't lead me to believe that any would have done, and that it was just details that eventually led to Dallas. But it certainly indicates that the plotters were very thorough, very well connected, powerful, and certainly not just a group of Dallas oil men or some mafia operation. It was far above that. But Dallas was chosen, and it was a good place to choose, with a very friendly (to the plotters) infrastructure. So I don't believe the stories that explain why the other plots didn't happen. I lean towards Dallas being the spot chosen, and the others serving some other purpose, such as dry runs, future rabbit holes. The amazing thing is that the Secret Service was not prepared in Dallas, despite the early warnings that the other plots should have provided. 

[James DiEugenio]

Thanks for reading Paul's article.  I think its very informative in a gestalt way.

Like I said, some people think Chicago was a dress rehearsal.  I kind of lean the other way and think it was real.  In some ways Vallee was just as good a patsy as Oswald, because of his blackouts.  IMO, the mental instability part of Vallee, that was meant to be added to Oswald by getting him into Jackson State.  But that part went awry when they did not anticipate the big voter rally there.  And consequently,  Shaw and Ferrie were exposed to scores of people. And someone even snapped a photo of them.

But I can understand the viewpoint that Chicago could have been a dress rehearsal.  The important thing is that all the records were handed in according to Bolden.  That may have been the reason the Secret Service knew nothing about it.  It may also be why they destroyed the 1963 records before the ARRB could get them.  And make no mistake, the ARRB was furious about this.  And they were thinking of going public and making a big stink about it.  But they did not.

If the records had been forwarded about Chicago, IMO, Dallas would not have happened.  The plans were just too alike for anyone to miss that significance.  Therefore, the route would have been changed, or Oswald would have been picked up.

 

[David Andrews]

17 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

James Angleton screwed the pooch.  He had two top psy-war operations specialists Edward Lansdale and David A. Phillips -- frame Lee Oswald as an agent of Fidel and murder him within 45 minutes after Kennedy.

But the patsy was captured alive, and the whole Red Agent Oswald plan fell through.

Hunt was the one designated for sacrifice if the plot went awry.  He wore the patsy jacket subsequently in Watergate.

 

How do you imagine Hunt's "sacrifice" would play out?  Notoriety for Hunt would to lead directly to CIA, and the concept of a "rogue" would be an unthinkable liability for the Agency in 1963.  Watergate burglary and conspiracy were an infinitely easier sell years later, after Hunt "retired."

Doug Caddy, other than the "alien presence" attribution, did Hunt say anything else about the assassination or about JFK?  What was his attitude, if he showed any?

Edited September 16, 2017 by David Andrews

[Cliff Varnell]

6 hours ago, David Andrews said:

How do you imagine Hunt's "sacrifice" would play out?  Notoriety for Hunt would to lead directly to CIA, and the concept of a "rogue" would be an unthinkable liability for the Agency in 1963.  Watergate burglary and conspiracy were an infinitely easier sell years later, after Hunt "retired."

Hunt wore the patsy jacket well before Watergate...

http://newcombat.net/Conversation/angleton-helms-memo-re-hunt/

[Michael Walton]

I'm having a hard time tying together the Shaw/Ferrie story with the Morales/CIA hijacking of the hit story that Bill Simpich writes so well about in State Secret.

https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/State_Secret.html

Are we to believe that while the patsifying of Oswald (per SS) was going on that over in NO Ferrie, Shaw et. al. were also involved in the Simpich story?  Were they two separate conspiracies - or one big one all somehow being worked on together?

I'm not doubting the NO aspect of the story but SS really shows a lot of "almost a smoking gun" documentation of what was taking place. If the NO part of it was involved, I'm not sure how they could have been involved when someone impersonated Oswald and Duran (per SS).

[Dan Doyle]

It's a false equivalency to give the 3 other venues the same quality as the Dallas venue.  If one stops to consider the political context in which Chicago, Tampa and Miami venues offered the plotters, none comes close to Dallas. I don't know about Tampa or Miami, but I can't imagine the mayor of Chicago,  the honorable Richard Daley, a fellow Irish Catholic, allowing the Chicago police department to railroad the designated patsy Valley to the exclusion of any other suspects/conspirators.  RFK would have been all over him. Recall that in the 1960 presidential election, Kennedy won the metro Chicago vote by 100k votes over Nixon which gave Kennedy a victory in Illinios.  The rural Illinios voters favored Nixon. And more than one pundit has suggested that the Democractic Daley machine rigged the vote for Kennedy.  

Now consider Dallas. Who's the mayor?  None other than Earl Cabell, the brother of Charles Cabell of the CIA who was fired by Kennedy along with Allan Dulles after the Bay of Pigs fiasco   What about the Dallas PD?  We all know from studying this history how they responded    The Mauser rifle magically becomes the Carcano.  Oswald is interrogated while in custody but the DPD fails to record his responses   And for the clincher, Ruby manages to get a clean shot that kills Oswald while Oswald is being protected by something like 70 Dallas policemen.  Like I said I can't imagine that happening in Mayor Richard J. Daley's Chicago.  

 

.

Edited September 17, 2017 by Dan Doyle

[Cliff Varnell]

On 9/15/2017 at 3:28 PM, Paul Brancato said:

i no longer doubt that ZRRIFLE Executive Action William Harvey is the key.

If the goal was to generate mass anti-Communist hysteria and popular demand for an invasion of Cuba, who'd most likely have drawn that assignment in 1963?  Gen. Edward Lansdale and David Phillips, top psy-war specialists.

If the goal was to design the ambush of a slow-moving, well-armed auto convoy, who'd most likely have drawn that assignment in 1963?  Carl Jenkins and Henry Hecksher, the guys who trained cadres of the Thai Border Police and the Kuomintang to ambush slow-moving, well-armed opium caravans.

Occam's Razor.

Just say'n...

Edited September 17, 2017 by Cliff Varnell

[Michael Walton]

I'm bumping this because I think it deserves legitimate debate and no one is mentioning it. Somewhere along the line, these stories have to have a cohesive conclusion. I just find it hard to believe that if Simpich is correct on the right path to what happened, that Morales and his ilk down there with possibly Roselli and his people being involved, how does Ferrie fit into all of this?

I think it's a legitimate question that should be discussed, not ignored.  Otherwise, the whole research community will continue to have its own cliques (the right wingers did it; ferrie did it; state secret did it).

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PREVIOUS POST:

I'm having a hard time tying together the Shaw/Ferrie story with the Morales/CIA hijacking of the hit story that Bill Simpich writes so well about in State Secret.

https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/State_Secret.html

Are we to believe that while the patsifying of Oswald (per SS) was going on that over in NO Ferrie, Shaw et. al. were also involved in the Simpich story?  Were they two separate conspiracies - or one big one all somehow being worked on together?

I'm not doubting the NO aspect of the story but SS really shows a lot of "almost a smoking gun" documentation of what was taking place. If the NO part of it was involved, I'm not sure how they could have been involved when someone impersonated Oswald and Duran (per SS).