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Michael Crane

Number of shots in Dealy Plaza?

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I`m not asking for facts or actual evidence.If it`s provided ....even better.

I`ve had debates on other forums the was not JFK assassination related.

I`m asking you to tell me how many bullets/shots you think were fired that day.

Not just at JFK,but Governor Connally also.

Feel free to just post the number.

I`m thinking about 9 or more.

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1) JFK`s back

2) JFK`s Throat

3) Back of JFK`s head

4) Shot in right temple

5) Connally`s shoulder/back

6) Connally`s wrist)

7) Stemmon`s sign

8) Concrete curb

9) Limo floor pan

10) Chrome strip near mirror

11) Found in grass

12) Connally`s leg

 

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I do believe that no more than 4 shots "that could be heard" were fired. Maybe even three.

Any others may have been through silencers.

Many witnesses were recorded saying that the shots "sounded different", at least the last JFK head shot.

The first shot was more often than not described as sounding like a "firecracker" or "back fire" ...from a car or motorcycle?

The second shot, same thing.

But, the third shot ( the JFK head shot ) was described by a fair amount of bystanders as sounding different ( louder and/or more powerful) than the first two.

I always considered this testimony as much more worthy of consideration regards more than one gun used in JFK's shooting.

If all three shots came from the same location and from the same gun, a different sounding 3rd shot is highly unlikely and therefor suspicious.

I would like to add that a louder and more powerful 3rd shot could be from two guns firing at almost exactly the same time.

 

Edited by Joe Bauer

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2 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

The first shot was more often than not described as sounding like a "firecracker" or "back fire ...from a car or motorcycle?

The second shot, same thing.

But, the third shot ( the JFK head shot ) was described by a fair amount of bystanders as sounding different ( louder and/or more powerful) than the first two.

I always considered this testimony as much more worthy of consideration regards more than one gun used in JFK's shooting.

 

Joe,

 

I've always thought the first shot was from a .22, and that's why it was described as a "crack" as opposed to a "boom".

I live in the country, and around this time of year (fall), a lot of guys around me are sighting in their rifles for the beginning of hunting season. You can definitely tell the difference.

 

Steve Thomas

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3 hours ago, Michael Crane said:

I`m asking you to tell me how many bullets/shots you think were fired that day.

I`m thinking about 9 or more.

Michael,

 

I can't speak to the number of shots, but for me, the best evidence for conspiracy has always been the number of shots that missed. Not the ones that hit, but the number that missed.

 

Steve Thomas

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The acoustic evidence, which has yet to be effectively impeached by anyone to my knowledge, is the starting point for me. From that we get a sliding scale, definitely 3 shots, almost certainly 4 four shots, up to 6 discernable shotlike sounds. Claims for more and you have to claim silenced shots, juxtaposed shots etc. I would suggest the acoustic evidence is sufficient to eliminate a single rifle shooter (shots too close together) and to determine at least two locations (In front and behind limousine). Other than the acoustic evidence, determining the number of shots is pretty speculative since any witness testimony is subject to potential misinformation/alteration.

Edited by Eddy Bainbridge
spelling

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11 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

I do believe that no more than 4 shots "that could be heard" were fired. Maybe even three.

Any others may have been through silencers.

Many witnesses were recorded saying that the shots "sounded different", at least the last JFK head shot.

The first shot was more often than not described as sounding like a "firecracker" or "back fire ...from a car or motorcycle?

The second shot, same thing.

But, the third shot ( the JFK head shot ) was described by a fair amount of bystanders as sounding different ( louder and/or more powerful) than the first two.

I always considered this testimony as much more worthy of consideration regards more than one gun used in JFK's shooting.

If all three shots came from the same location and from the same gun, a different sounding 3rd shot is highly unlikely and therefor suspicious.

I would like to add that a louder and more powerful 3rd shot could be from two guns firing at almost exactly the same time.

 

Isn't that what a lot of witnesses said? That the last two shots were "bunched together" closely?

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Didn't WC, Posner, Bugliosi, Hanks prove conclusively all witnesses were wrong?

Edited by Andrew Prutsok
Typo

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Mathius B. 

The last two shots were reported to be closer together than the first and second shots, with some witnesses verbally simulating them ( "Bam......Bam - Bam " )  which would have been closer together than the time the Manlicher could have fired them.

The louder 3rd shot witnesses generally described the shots this way:  "Bam ...... Bam - BOOM!"

Also the clearly seen bullet sized indentation in the top inside part of the windshield frame has always been poorly explained in it's origin and date of occurrence. It's appearance and possible significance regards another shot seems consistently and illogically downplayed even by researchers to me.

I am sure our SS-100-X expert Pamela Brown has her own take on the dent and it would be interesting to hear this again.

Was the JFK head shot bullet still intact enough after exploding JFK's skull apart that it could have continued on to create this inner windshield frame dent?

My suspicious mind however wonders why the SS and the staff who maintained this vehicle could miss this visually ugly and distracting dent if it was created before 11,22,1963.

Imagine the cosmetic lengths that are taken to have any vehicle carrying and showcasing the President of The United States and his wife and maybe other dignitaries in a huge public parade before 10's of thousands of spectators looking perfect? 

Washed, polished and shiny as Marine dress boots for sure.

If I was in charge of this limo duty and saw that deep ugly front window frame dent, I would for sure make note of it and feel it was important enough to fix. Just common sense.

Otherwise...heck...why not just rent The Beverly Hillbillies 1921 Oldsmobile model 43 touring car for such high pomp events?

 

 

 

 

Edited by Joe Bauer

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Three independent analysts recorded six blur episodes on the Zapruder Film. Each episode is the result of a rifle shot. Based on blur analysis, six shots were`fired in Dealey Plaza. 

Based on the acoustics analysis by BBN, six shots were fired in Dealey Plaza on 22 Nov 1963. The first shot was a misfire that had only four peaks on the oscilloscope. The other five had 11 or more peaks. 

No one has debunked the acoustics analysis according to Donald Byron Thomas, who wrote the book "Hear No Evil". He also followed up on the acoustics analysis in the book to debunk every subsequent attempt to derail BBN's analysis. His book is the premier book on the forensic evidence in the Kennedy murder case. His follow-up reports can be accessed on the internet.

For a complete account of the blur and acoustics analysis refer to Thomas's book.

Both Thomas and BBN had constraints placed on them so that their conclusions would follow as closely as possible the Warren Report and mainstream media reporting on the assassination. Thus their conclusions were tempered to stay in line as much as possible with the Warren Report. To veer off into an "extreme" conclusion would mean censor or the the case of Thomas no one to publish his book. So Thomas could not go over four shots. BBN was forced to admit that one shot, the first one, was not a rifle shot, and eliminate a fifth shot. BBN eventually settled on four shots. 

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I like what Fletcher Prouty said in regard to the number of shots in Dealey Plaza:

"As many as it took."

Edited by Roger DeLaria

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I have always assumed there were 4-6 shots, but the initial descriptions that the shots sounded like firecrackers always confused me.  I do not know what firecrackers sound like to you.  When I have heard them, they always sound like rapid little bang-bang-bangs to me.

So if that is the case, how many initial bang bang bangs were there really?   What made these people describe the initial shots as firecrackers?

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11 hours ago, George Sawtelle said:

Three independent analysts recorded six blur episodes on the Zapruder Film. Each episode is the result of a rifle shot. Based on blur analysis, six shots were`fired in Dealey Plaza. 

Based on the acoustics analysis by BBN, six shots were fired in Dealey Plaza on 22 Nov 1963. The first shot was a misfire that had only four peaks on the oscilloscope. The other five had 11 or more peaks. 

No one has debunked the acoustics analysis according to Donald Byron Thomas, who wrote the book "Hear No Evil". He also followed up on the acoustics analysis in the book to debunk every subsequent attempt to derail BBN's analysis. His book is the premier book on the forensic evidence in the Kennedy murder case. His follow-up reports can be accessed on the internet.

For a complete account of the blur and acoustics analysis refer to Thomas's book.

Both Thomas and BBN had constraints placed on them so that their conclusions would follow as closely as possible the Warren Report and mainstream media reporting on the assassination. Thus their conclusions were tempered to stay in line as much as possible with the Warren Report. To veer off into an "extreme" conclusion would mean censor or the the case of Thomas no one to publish his book. So Thomas could not go over four shots. BBN was forced to admit that one shot, the first one, was not a rifle shot, and eliminate a fifth shot. BBN eventually settled on four shots. 

George,

has anyone ever tried to see if the blur in the film is in sync with the shots on the tape?

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8 hours ago, Stephanie Goldberg said:

I have always assumed there were 4-6 shots, but the initial descriptions that the shots sounded like firecrackers always confused me.  I do not know what firecrackers sound like to you.  When I have heard them, they always sound like rapid little bang-bang-bangs to me.

So if that is the case, how many initial bang bang bangs were there really?   What made these people describe the initial shots as firecrackers?

Stephanie, I also contemplated these same questions.

The sound of "firecrackers" is a very subjective thing. I also remember hearing them go off and sound as you describe ..."little bang-bang-bangs."

Back in the 50's and 60's, those strings of firecrackers you could buy in San Francisco's China Town definitely sounded like that.

But, there are different types of firecrackers that may be louder and more powerful sounding. And then there are "cherry bomb" type ordinances which are very powerful sounding. 

Backfiring can also range from somewhat loud to very loud and powerful sounding. Often as loud and powerful as a higher than 22 caliber rifle shot.

The first shot ( and maybe the second ) was so often described with these two subjective terms which makes it all somewhat confusing. 

However, it is the testimony of some in Dealey Plaza of the 3rd shot being louder and stronger ( BOOM versus Bang ) that has always intrigued me.

Edited by Joe Bauer

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