Delay in release of records.

[Pat Speer]

FWIW, I think it's pretty silly to blame the delay on the CIA, etc. Everyone who's been following this stuff over any time would have to know the FBI and CIA were gonna petition the President to withhold a number of the documents. This could be for a variety of reasons. In looking through a lot of the documents that were released last night, it's clear most of these were withheld because they mentioned sources--informers and foreign companies providing information. It's not only acceptable but proper that the names of these sources be protected while the sources are still alive.

No, the cause of the delay, to my eyes, is that we have an absolute bungler as President. In his juvenile mind, he thought he could just let everything come out. "That'll show the FBI and CIA for picking on me with this Russia stuff, whine whine whine." Only someone--or more likely a bunch of someones (Kelly, Pompeo, Mattis, etc)--finally got a sit down with the Golfer-in-Chief and explained to him that uggh, if we release these names, some of these people are gonna get killed, and the blood will be on your hands, Bozo, and in any event, we'll have a heckuva time getting any sources in the future. So then it's "Oh wait, I've gotta delay the release until I can do what I was supposed to have been doing for months--go through these one by one and decide which documents should be withheld."

There's the Deep State, and then there's the Dufus State. And this is the latter.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Pat Speer

[Douglas Caddy]

David Talbot wrote on Facebook today:

The Day After. One day after the CIA blocked the full release of JFK documents, in defiance of the law, it's more clear than ever who's running the Trump administration. Your lawful right as an American citizen to your own history has been "denied in full," to use the bureaucratic language of the spy agency that tells the president of the United States what he can and cannot do. Trump's tweeted explanation for why he caved to CIA pressure said it all: "I have no choice — today — but to accept those redactions rather than allow potentially irreversible harm to our nation’s security.” Wow...."I HAVE NO CHOICE." Ponder that one for a moment. The president of the United States has no choice when the CIA makes its will known to him.

Trump still insists that after six months -- or maybe another 25 years -- the American people will be granted full "transparency." But Roger Stone (pictured immediately below), the Trump advisor who's been courageously pushing for full release of the Kennedy records, has been around the block in Washington too long to have much faith in this:

“If the data dump that the National Archives did in July of a small amount of JFK-related material is any indication, the fallback of the intelligence agencies appears to be redact and withhold as much of this information as possible,” Stone stated yesterday. “They’ll use the broad rubric of national security. If the censorship is so great to make the president’s order meaningless, it’ll get litigated in the courts.”

When it came to this defining moment in American history -- over whether we are a closed or open society -- it was the CIA's authoritarian director Mike Pompeo (pictured below), not Stone, who prevailed in the Oval Office.

What exactly is the CIA still hiding by blocking the full release of these papers? Here's a partial list:

1. The travel records of key CIA suspects in the the Kennedy assassination, including William Harvey, Howard Hunt and David Morales. Were they in Dallas shortly before or on Nov. 22, 1963, as evidence suggests?

2. Did Allen Dulles -- the embittered former CIA director fired by JFK -- go to the top-secret CIA facility in northern Virginia known as "The Farm on Nov. 22, 1963, as his own calendar indicates? Why was he there -- despite having been pushed out of the CIA two years earlier? With whom did he meet and speak with on the phone?

3. A tape of the William Harvey interview conducted by the Church Committee behind closed doors on 4/10/75 -- long withheld by the CIA. By the mid-'70s, Harvey -- a Kennedy-hater who ran the CIA's assassination program -- suspected that he was being thrown to the wolves by the agency to which he'd devoted his life. He might very well have had some interesting things to say about his former colleagues.

4. A 338-page file on J. Walton Moore, the head of the CIA office in Dallas at the time of the assassination. Moore assigned George de Mohrenschildt -- a Russian speaking, globe-trotting oilman and CIA asset -- to babysit Lee Harvey Oswald in Dallas. This file is certain to add to the overwhelming evidence that "the fingerprints of U.S. intelligence were all over Oswald," as Sen. Richard Schweiker of the Church Committee famously said.

5. An 18-page dossier on Gordon McClendon, a Dallas businessman who conferred with Jack Ruby just before he shot Oswald. McClendon was a CIA-connected media entrepreneur who ran a right-wing radio network in the Southwest. As Ruby was arrested, he shouted out for McClendon.

6. Withheld -- or destroyed: Oswald's "201" file compiled by the CIA's Office of Security, presided over by the ghostly James Jesus Angleton. According to Judge John Tunheim, former head of the Assassination Records Review Board, "I have no doubt Angleton destroyed (JFK) files," when he took control of the CIA's internal investigation of the assassination.

Despite any agency purging and tampering that has occurred over the years, don't believe the "experts" who are telling us there's nothing in these JFK files of any significance. There's a reason that the CIA is still hiding this material...because it points directly at the agency itself in the killing of President John F. Kennedy and the coverup.

 

[Jim Hargrove]

What an extraordinary list of CIA secrets assembled by Mr. Talbot.  He sure seems to understand the Devil... and his chessboard.  Thanks for posting this.  We should distribute the list as widely as possible, because you can bet the New York Times and NBC News won’t help.

Point #5 above should probably include the fact that Gordon Mclendon was a lifelong friend of David Atlee Phillips and that the two men, in the 1970s, formed the Association of Retired Intelligence Officers.

Edited October 27, 2017 by Jim Hargrove

[Joe Bauer]

One reason for ordering Trump to delay...assets to protect because they are still alive?

They sure didn't mind stripping that protection from Valerie Plame when Robert Novak was allowed to out her in 2003.

David Talbot's posted Facebook comments regards Trump and who's telling who what they can or cannot do regards this lawfully mandated release is simply totally disturbing.

Could you imagine JFK's response to someone superceding his constitutional authority like that?

Kind of obvious who really runs this country.

[James DiEugenio]

Pat,

There is some truth to that.

But on the other side, these guys knew since at least July that Martha Murphy was going to release this stuff.  I mean that is why I think she did the early release.  It was a warning shot.

You can go back even further to the 1992 act if you want.

So why did they wait until the last day, and from my understanding, the afternoon of the last day.  To me it looks like an ambush.  "Look sir, if you let the  stuff go 3 agents will be exposed and possibly killed in Mexico."  And there really is not enough time to think over and say, "We have agents still there in the field from 1963?  Fifty four years ago?  How old is he 75?  And he's not retired?  Get him on the phone and I want to see his file because I don't buy it.  And if you are lying, you are fired. "

How can you do that with a few hours left?

Edited October 27, 2017 by James DiEugenio

[Don Jeffries]

This is par for the course with Trump. He likes to excite his base, make them continue to think he's an outsider, then ultimately act exactly the same as his predecessors. 

[Ron Ecker]

Talbot's list doesn't include, nor have I seen anyone else mention, the Joannides files. Is it taken for granted that the CIA is not going to release those files no matter what any president or court of law says?

 

 

 

[James DiEugenio]

That is a very interesting point Ron.

In talking to Jim Lesar, he says that since the ARRB closed down, the target is widened.  And he thinks those documents should be included.  He also says that no one knows how many documents there really are because of something called NBR.  The ARRB allowed the CIA and FBI liaisons to deem some docs Not Believed Relevant.  Jim vehemently argued against this classification. And he this that Martha is including these in the document dump.

If the CIA is holding back 18,000 documents as they say they are, then I think that must include the NBR ones.  Because no one had that big of a number for those docs.

The more we see this unfold, I think the ARRB does not look as good as many of us thought.  It was a good idea in theory.  But like many good ideas it faltered in its implementation. This was I think because it was underfunded, was not given enough time to work, and did not have  enough strong enforcement teeth.

 

[Cory Santos]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

Pat,

There is some truth to that.

But on the other side, these guys knew since at least July that Martha Murphy was going to release this stuff.  I mean that is why I think she did the early release.  It was a warning shot.

You can go back even further to the 1992 act if you want.

So why did they wait until the last day, and from my understanding, the afternoon of the last day.  To me it looks like an ambush.  "Look sir, if you let the  stuff go 3 agents will be exposed and possibly killed in Mexico."  And there really is not enough time to think over and say, "We have agents still there in the field from 1963?  Fifty four years ago?  How old is he 75?  And he's not retired?  Get him on the phone and I want to see his file because I don't buy it.  And if you are lying, you are fired. "

How can you do that with a few hours left?

Truth is, they waited until the last minute for several reasons I understand.  One is attorneys need to write these petitions, that takes time. 

Then they need to be reviewed several times. 

I can assure you as a former government attorney, documents take a long time to create because of the oversight on what you write.  (it can be frustrating sometimes but your superiors usually provide great insight on the document which you apply - if the agency head is good).

To blame it on Trump (other posts not Jim's-Jim's post I agree with) is not intellectually satisfying and shows lack of understanding of the procedure. 

Trump did the right thing going on Twitter announcing he would release these documents, giving them a warning to get any petitions to him asap.

Of course, when agency heads go the the White House in person, as I understand they did, he has to listen to them- they are his advisors.

He listened to them, and apparently he was unhappy so he punted and gave them an extension to present their case rather than approving their petitions.

So, blaming those who should have had these documents to him earlier seems logical.

Of course, it might have been excellent strategy by very smart people in our intelligence agencies too.

 

[Ron Bulman]

Four different items on the MSN home page relating to the JFK assassination/files at the moment.  One of which is a poll, "Should Trump release all the files?"  64% yes.  10 minutes ago it was "How important do you think the files are?" 20 something % very, 40 something somewhat.  A few minutes before that it was "Did LHO act alone?"  Not this much attention to the subject in the msm in 25 years.  I wonder if Tump or the CIA expected such.  I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort of backlash to dilute or downplay the issue.

[Larry Hancock]

Cory,  help me understand - the agencies involved have had the lists of exactly what documents were affected by the JFK Records act, which were being held with redaction and which were fully postponed. They were very aware of the date of release and of the Presidential review clause.

Are you really saying that they started on the paperwork for protecting all the files involved at a late date and that all that paperwork just arrived at the White House yesterday, or this week, so that there was no time for review?  Did each file have to have an independent set of paperwork making the case the case on it. Given that thousands of files are still under protest, do you think that paperwork was completed and if so when - or did they intentionally violate the law by not preparing and filing release protest in advance.

Just trying to follow your thoughts on the process..

[Cory Santos]

1 minute ago, Larry Hancock said:

Cory,  help me understand - the agencies involved have had the lists of exactly what documents were affected by the JFK Records act, which were being held with redaction and which were fully postponed. They were very aware of the date of release and of the Presidential review clause.

Are you really saying that they started on the paperwork for protecting all the files involved at a late date and that all that paperwork just arrived at the White House yesterday, or this week, so that there was no time for review?  Did each file have to have an independent set of paperwork making the case the case on it. Given that thousands of files are still under protest, do you think that paperwork was completed and if so when - or did they intentionally violate the law by not preparing and filing release protest in advance.

Just trying to follow your thoughts on the process..

Thank you for your question.

I will not address whether anyone violated the Act.

However, I think you answered your own questions very well.

A document for example might have several agencies involved.  You would be amazed at how many actual administrative agencies there are, even just in the intelligence/defense world.

In law school, many many years ago, my professor who is now a 9th circuit appellate court judge, said administrative agencies were the actual fourth branch of U.S. government.

So each agency has to write their petition, many overlapping.  Can you imagine that paperwork on your desk?  Just to get that paperwork there would have taken many hours.

So, I am not trying to excuse anything, nor attack anyone or entity.  It is what it is.  But saying this is the President's fault, I find that intellectually dishonest and incorrect.  He certainly could have just said he was extending ALL documents! 

Arguably, now there will be another MSM blitz regarding this subject next April. . . which is good!

[Larry Hancock]

Got it, thanks Cory.  As you say, it dropped the ball strictly on the President, he could either choose not to act, essentially letting the Congressional action override and release everything - or regroup.  I will say that this seems to reflect poorly on the CIA Director, or the various legal staffs including WH staff. Everybody knew this was coming and it seems to me they should have seen the problem you outlined and either gotten in front of it (I mean they have had years for this and the lists of documents in question were readily available, we discussed them in Dallas last November).  Could someone not at least given the President some warning that this could ball up at the last minute, that there was a whole bunch of paperwork outstanding, that he should not make any public statements as he did..etc. I follow you on process but there is also a question of "managing" the process.

[George Sawtelle]

Cory

Lets speak as ordinary citizens, not as lawyers or engineers or professionals.

Almost all of the research community knows CIA excuses for withholding the documents are total BS. It's the same old, tired excuse. If we know it, don't you think Trump knows it also. Don't you think about 90% of the world knows it.

The fourth branch of the government, the CIA/military twosome, continues to act as though they know what's best for the american people . They need to stay on top of things for the good of the country since we as citizens don't know what's good for us. That is their real justification for doing what they're doing with our documents.

The CIA and military have become more and more powerfull since Kennedy was murdered. Along with the help of flag waving congressmen and senators, the CIA and military have enough money to do exactly as they please in our country and the world. If our civilian governments fails to bring these guys under control we could be in a world of hurt.

 

[Cory Santos]

16 minutes ago, George Sawtelle said:

Cory

Lets speak as ordinary citizens, not as lawyers or engineers or professionals.

Almost all of the research community knows CIA excuses for withholding the documents are total BS. It's the same old, tired excuse. If we know it, don't you think Trump knows it also. Don't you think about 90% of the world knows it.

The fourth branch of the government, the CIA/military twosome, continues to act as though they know what's best for the american people . They need to stay on top of things for the good of the country since we as citizens don't know what's good for us. That is their real justification for doing what they're doing with our documents.

The CIA and military have become more and more powerfull since Kennedy was murdered. Along with the help of flag waving congressmen and senators, the CIA and military have enough money to do exactly as they please in our country and the world. If our civilian governments fails to bring these guys under control we could be in a world of hurt.

 

Well, fourth branch accounts for  administrative agencies, not merely CIA/Military, if I understood your post.

I understand your frustration and comments.

But, in the real world, Washington has procedures.  Whatever the reason was for the delay, as I said above, we have another day next year where this will be in the news .  If you feel the way I think you do, then, you should view that as a good thing.

I fail to understand though about bring "these guys under control".  If you want to explain I will listen. 

One last thought, these guys do keep us safe from a lot of bad guys out there. 

But go ahead and explain your thought a little more.

Thanks. 

CAS