CE399 and its connections to...

[Pamela Brown]

6 hours ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

Pamela- a researcher told me earlier this year that there was bullet damage to the ashtray behind the limo driver's seat. are you aware of any such damage? 

No.  That's a new one to me.

However, when SA Frazier and his team finally performed the forensic exam on the limo at 1am 11.23.63 in the White House Garage they did not use any additional light for their exam or the photos they took.  I find this appalling.  How do we know they didn't overlook something?

[James DiEugenio]

Larry:

What is the prosecution's witness list?

 

You must have it by now.

[Pat Speer]

22 hours ago, Lawrence Schnapf said:

John Orr (former DOJ prosecutor) will be discussing his research and discovery of organic material resembling muscle cells on the nose fragment discovered in the limo at the mock trial in two weeks. His findings were covered in the 2013 Fox Special on the 50th anniversary. he will also discuss the computer animation that pointed to  gunman on the roof of the Records Building.....

Ouch. The skin on the bullet nose proves the bullet struck Kennedy's head at the supposed exit, and was a tangential wound. But Orr can't see that, and keeps trying to push that the skin on the bullet nose must have come from Kennedy's neck, as I recall.

In any event, I hope the defense isn't gonna go down the road of pushing the "alternate theories" of its witnesses...

Or is that the strategy? Blast the jury with a variety of theories, and thereby shrink the government's lone-assassin theory down to just one among many theories about the assassination, and a fairly weak one at that

[Glenn Nall]

I'll tell ya, I don't know what to make of this upcoming mock "trial." Seems there are a lot of people interested in it, though...

What often occurs to me is just how little "evidence" the Lone Nut Theorists have to work with, refutable or not. I mean, they're really stuck in this very small box which at best insinuates: Oswald's presence on the 6th floor between 12.15 and 12.30 or so, his pretty-damn-fleet-footed "hiding" of the rifle and flight from the floor, his escape on a bus, and his presence at 10th and Patton... That's a darn small box of evidence as compared to the virtual depot of evidence we have in the old arsenal, considering the thousands and thousands of particulars made available by virtue of all the moving parts and variables that would have been necessary to perform that damned act as it was.

It kinda seems to me the defendant would do just as well defending himself in this case, even if he is dead.

[Glenn Nall]

14 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Larry:

What is the prosecution's witness list?

 

You must have it by now.

I'm thinkin' it must be pretty short.

And that the name "Brennan" is on there. A LOT.

[Michael Walton]

Does anyone have any thoughts on whether it's possible that CE399 could have been the bullet that caused JFK's rear back wound and really did fall out vs. being planted on the stretcher?

[Pat Speer]

32 minutes ago, Michael Walton said:

Does anyone have any thoughts on whether it's possible that CE399 could have been the bullet that caused JFK's rear back wound and really did fall out vs. being planted on the stretcher?

I think both could be true. That is, that it fell out of Kennedy's back, and not Connally's leg, and was then found in the limo by Sam Kinney. And that Kinney then placed it on a stretcher he thought was JFK's.

So why didn't Kinney just come forward and say "Hey, look what I found?" Because he found it while cleaning up the limo--something the Secret Service immediately realized was a mistake--to such an extent, even, that they failed to mention it in their reports....

 

[Joe Bauer]

22 minutes ago, Michael Walton said:

Does anyone have any thoughts on whether it's possible that CE399 could have been the bullet that caused JFK's rear back wound and really did fall out vs. being planted on the stretcher?

MW, since there was reportedly evidence that a bullet tore some of JFK'S necktie fabric or some other part of his clothing caused by it's passing through this ( therefore not being left in JFK's body or even his frontal clothing ) are you inferring a falling out of this same bullet ( CE399 ) from Connally's body or clothing? 

My question regards this thread is whether the first person who noticed and picked up CE399 mentioned seeing any red blood or other tissue on it. And if not, and CE399 was so clean looking with no flesh and blood residue..whether this clean condition is more normal than not regards body piercing bullets just 1 hour after their damage?

[Pat Speer]

FWIW, Joe, I've read an awful lot on forensics, and from what I have gathered it wasn't SOP in 1963 to test a bullet for blood residue, etc. The tests were performed to see if a bullet associated with a shooting could be matched to a gun, not to see if the bullet was the actual bullet used in the shooting. The presumption was that it was, or else it wouldn't be getting tested.

And yes, I know this demonstrates a bias. Virtually all crime labs then, and now, are off-shoots of law enforcement, and see their purpose as helping the good guys catch the bad guys. Not helping suspected bad guys go free. Or making their fellow cops look bad.

A few years back, I contacted the top expert in the world on fingerprint fabrication, to see if he would be willing to take a look at the prints supposedly found on the boxes, bag, and rifle, to see if they were as suspicious as I thought they were. He said that he'd met Lt. Day (the head of the Dallas Crime Scene Search Section), and a member of the FBI's crime lab, and that they'd told him everything was okie-dokie, and that he had no interest in second-guessing them, or exposing them. Now, this is a guy who'd traveled around the world testifying that foreign fingerprint experts had been fooled, or were just plain wrong. But he was unwilling to second-guess two American examiners, even after I pointed out some of the problems with the prints, and that the story he recalled their telling him wasn't accurate.

As far as your original question, my recollection is that O.P Wright handled the bullet before handing it over to the Secret Service, and that this may have helped "clean" the bullet. But even if I'm wrong about this...the bullet was near pristine. It was smooth. One wouldn't expect to find blood on such a bullet.

As far as this being normal? No. This was a FMJ bullet, designed to go through humans without the jacket being damaged. Most bullets then, and now, are made to deform on impact, and as such would be far more likely to retain blood and tissue.

 

[Joe Bauer]

Ah, I see.

Quite informative.

Thank you PS.

[Michael Walton]

1 hour ago, Joe Bauer said:

MW, since there was reportedly evidence that a bullet tore some of JFK'S necktie fabric or some other part of his clothing caused by it's passing through this ( therefore not being left in JFK's body or even his frontal clothing ) are you inferring a falling out of this same bullet ( CE399 ) from Connally's body or clothing? 

Joe and Pat, thanks.  And this is mainly for Joe.  Joe, watch the Z film. He reacts to the throat wound THEN his body lurches forward from the back wound.  It looks almost as if an invisible hand is pushing him forward.  His head even bobs from this force. I made a video about it here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7Hr9Lrku-Cxa3NqTEpScWNQZnc/view?usp=sharing

This is my interpretation of it. The point being, the back wound terminates and this is what Humes said in the report. But about the residue, and like PS said, how could we possibly ascertain any residue when Kinney handled the bullet with his own bare hands?

[Glenn Nall]

1 hour ago, Michael Walton said:

Joe and Pat, thanks.  And this is mainly for Joe.  Joe, watch the Z film. He reacts to the throat wound THEN his body lurches forward from the back wound.  It looks almost as if an invisible hand is pushing him forward.  His head even bobs from this force. I made a video about it here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B7Hr9Lrku-Cxa3NqTEpScWNQZnc/view?usp=sharing

This is my interpretation of it. The point being, the back wound terminates and this is what Humes said in the report. But about the residue, and like PS said, how could we possibly ascertain any residue when Kinney handled the bullet with his own bare hands?

Michael, I really appreciate your efforts on this video inasmuch as you've made it easy to see the time difference in his hands to his throat and the vague head movement; i can see that it is distinctly possible that's from a second bullet strike, and from the rear.

from that point i would find little interest in what bullet caused it if one did, for if one is proved to have done so, the LN theory is already fully destroyed. Ballistics won't matter at this point other than to perhaps get some names...

but I'll reiterate - if it's proved to have been a second shot after the throat wound, and before the head wounds, then the LNers are toast. the kind with creamed chipped beef all over it, like mom used to make. you ever had that? Creamed chipped beef on toast? DAMN good breakfasts!!! Now just imagine you were eating little Lone Nut theorists.

Same thing.

Edited November 4, 2017 by Glenn Nall

[Michael Walton]

Glenn, one other thing to point out.  At the end of the video, you can see the recreation that was done.  From all appearances this is the same recreation done when they put a piece of tape on the back of the JFK stand in where the back wound was on his body. You can see it in the video (the tape).  At this point, there appears to be no fudging of the record - no Specter standing there saying the back wound happened in the neck region and so forth. So this photograph - which is actually from a film that used to be online but no longer is - pretty much shows what the 6th floor shooter would have seen.

Then you simply have to ask yourself - if there was no back exit wound, and if that hole doesn't even line up with the throat wound - then that should pretty much settle the SBT nonsense.

PS - that recreation film used to be online in pristine condition.  I recall seeing it on YouTube and grabbed the frame you see in my video.  For the life of me I can't find it any more except for a very bad copy of it.  Not even Dave Von Pein - with all of his videos he has - can find it.

[Pamela Brown]

On 11/4/2017 at 2:00 PM, Michael Walton said:

Does anyone have any thoughts on whether it's possible that CE399 could have been the bullet that caused JFK's rear back wound and really did fall out vs. being planted on the stretcher?

That, imo, is a long shot.  But, who knows?

[Michael Clark]

25 minutes ago, Pamela Brown said:

That, imo, is a long shot.  But, who knows?

I don't think CE399 was ever fired into anything but air of water.