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Keyvan Shahrdar

GEORGE DEMOHRENSCHILDT Contacted by DOD in April 1963!

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I have to go from memory here - on another recent thread I read that Dulles, around 1955, enlisted DeM to help babysit a new CIA recruit. Does anyone remember this? 

Jason - I think you were talking tongue in cheek when you made the comment about DeM being tasked with watching Oswald, and you claim that rather than an asset, DeM was an intelligence target. Are you suggesting that the meeting Mellen references was DUBRINY 1, Thomas Devine, and 2, unidentified so far, monitoring DeM? I have a question: why would DeM be meeting with two CIA agents, part of some op called DUBRINY, and Charles? I'm thinking the meeting wasn't about Saisal plantations in Haiti. And who do you think DUBRINY 2 was? Why still unidentified?

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G DeM. Mail intercepted

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/104-10164-10115.pdf

PERSONALITY FILE ACTION REQUEST, GEORGE DE MORENSCHILDT.

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/104-10166-10142.pdf

WUBRINY - George deMOHRENSHILDT

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/104-10166-10143.pdf

TRACE REPLY: RID FILES REVEALED SEVERAL REFERNCES ON SUBJECT, AKA GEORGE S. DE MOHRENSCHILDT, GEORGE SERGIUS DE MOHRENSCHILDT, JERZY VON MOHRENSCHILDT AND JERRY VON MOHRENSCHILDT.

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/104-10166-10144.pdf

*****

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/104-10166-10145.pdf

R AND R COVERING MFR ON GEORGE AND JEANNIE DE MOHRENSCHILDT'S TRAVEL TO THE US.

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/104-10166-10161.pdf

DE MOHRENSCHILDT'S TRAVEL TO THE US, MFR.

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/104-10166-10162.pdf

MR AND MRS GEORGE DE MORENSCHILDT LEFT HAITI FOR THE U.S.

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/104-10166-10165.pdf

More docs on THIS page and the next

Edited by Bart Kamp

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29 minutes ago, Bart Kamp said:

FBI batch files eeleased today, some of them are dupes but they may have different annotations.

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32158969.pdf

<snip> 

Bart,

Thanks for the update on FBI releases.   I want to offer my opinion on the first document in your list:

FBI document 124-10129.10321 --Dated March 23, 1964, states that Henry J. Docher, attorney, told the FBI that George DeMohrenschildt in Abilene, Texas, 1950, claimed that he had been in British Intelligence during World War II.

FBI investigation concluded that George had "established a propensity for falsehood and exaggeration."   I think this is important to remember in the case of Lee Harvey Oswald's alleged shooting at General Walker, and the possible motives.

In my CT, Lee Harvey Oswald wanted to be in the CIA so bad he could taste it.  From September 1962, until April 1963, Lee's best friend in Texas was George DeMohrenschildt (DM).

Now -- here's my CT.  If (and only if) George DM presented himself to Lee Harvey Oswald as a CIA agent (by means of "falsehood and exaggeration"), then, when George DM expressed his personal hatred of General Walker (calling him General Fokker) and his approval of Volkmar Schmidt (calling him Messer Schmidt), and when Volkmar Schmidt compared General Walker to Adolf Hitler, then we can easily imagine the 23-year old Oswald's conclusions.

Married, with a trainee job in a photo lab (Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall) and a baby in arms and another on the way, Lee Harvey Oswald would have been super-anxious to get that job in the CIA.  If George DM really was a CIA agent, then it made good sense to please George DM and Volkmar Schmidt, and make their wish come true -- and kill General Walker.

This is hypothetical -- but it happens to match this new FBI release.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo

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Posted (edited)
On 11/10/2017 at 8:50 AM, Paul Trejo said:

Keyvan,

It's well known to researchers of George De Mohrenschildt that the CIA was interested in him on many fronts.  They were mostly interested in his older brother, but George was also interesting.   Here is my understanding of their interest.

1.  Both men were born in Minsk, Russia where their family had a huge acreage of productive land.  They were mega-rich -- and they could speak several languages.

.......

Correction:

I don't know about his brother, but George de Mohrenschildt was born in Mozyr / Mazyr, Czarist Russia, in 1911.  Mozyr is about 300 miles east of the Polish border, and 50 miles north of the Ukrainian border, in what is now the country of Belarus, the same country that your Minsk, the capital city and 200 miles to the NNW, is in.  FWIW, Belarus didn't become a (very) short-lived independent state until 1918.  In 1919 it became part of the USSR.  In July 1990 Belarus once again became an independent state during the dissolution of the USSR.

--  Tommy  :sun

PS  it's interesting to note that, according to Dick Russell, Angleton's underling in CI/SIG, Edward Clare Petty, thought not only that JJA himself was a KGB mole, but that, based on some decrypted WWII VENONA intercepts, "Polish" wheeler-dealer GdM, having immigrated to the U.S. in 1938 and having lived in Mexico during part of WWII, was probably a long-term KGB "illegal".  

 

(Well, at least Petty was right on the latter dude!)

 

 

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Posted (edited)
22 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Correction:

I don't know about his brother, but George de Mohrenschildt was born in Mozyr / Mazyr, Czarist Russia, in 1911.  Mozyr is about 300 miles east of the Polish border, and 50 miles north of the Ukrainian border, in what is now the country of Belarus, the same country that your Minsk, the capital city and 200 miles to the NNW, is in.  FWIW, Belarus didn't become a (very) short-lived independent state until 1918.  In 1919 it became part of the USSR.  In July 1990 Belarus once again became an independent state during the dissolution of the USSR.

--  Tommy  :sun

PS  it's interesting to note that, according to Dick Russell, Angleton's underling in CI/SIG, Edward Clare Petty, thought not only that JJA himself was a KGB mole, but that, based on some decrypted WWII VENONA intercepts, "Polish" wheeler-dealer GdM, having immigrated to the U.S. in 1938 and having lived in Mexico during part of WWII, was probably a long-term KGB "illegal".  

(Well, at least Petty was right on the latter dude!)

Thanks for the geography lesson, Tommy.   Yet since you're quoting Dick Russell, let's also admit that George De Mohrenschildt was also close to the Nazi Party in the early 1940's, and this is how he came to the attention of US officials, who had conquered the Nazis and were looking for information about how to control their leaders and their information. 

People with education, who can speak multiple languages, are always useful to victors in war.    Surely the KGB was interested in George, but George was motivated to get his ancestral inheritance back from the Communists.   So, there was this major disconnect.   George wanted MONEY and POWER, like his father and grandfather enjoyed as Barons in old Belarus.

That is why he was always Anticmomunist -- although, as an educated man, he had read all of the works of Marx, Engels, Lenin and Stalin.   He knew what he was talking about, and he rightly saw that Lee Harvey Oswald -- "a semi-educated hillbilly" in his words, did not properly understand the words of Marx, Engels, Lenin or Stalin.   Here is what George told the Warren Commission about Lee:

Mr. JENNER. Did you have the feeling that his views on politics were shallow and surface? 
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Very much so. 
Mr. JENNER. That he had not had the opportunity for a study under scholars who would criticize, so that he himself could form some views on the subject? 
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Exactly. His mind was of a man with exceedingly poor background, who read rather advanced books, and did not understand even the words in them. He read complicated economical treatises and just picked up difficult words out of what he has read, and loved to display them. He loved to use the difficult words, because it was to impress one
Mr. JENNER. Did you think he understood it? 
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He did not understand the words--he just used them. So how can you take seriously a person like that? You just laugh at him. But there was always an element of pity I had, and my wife had, for him. We realized that he was sort of a forlorn individual, groping for something. 
Mr. JENNER. Did you form any impression in the area, let us say, of reliability---that is, whether our Government would entrust him with something that required a high degree of intelligence, a high degree of imagination, a high degree of ability to retain his equilibrium under pressure, a management of a situation, to be flexible enough? 
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I never would believe that any government would be stupid enough to trust Lee with anything important. 

George came to the USA to get rich.   His older brother was far ahead of him, with superb connections.  George, however, was failing.  He was a professor of Geology, making peanuts compared with his brother.   His one hope was to get an Oil Exploration Contract with a Dallas Oil Baron.  The best he could do was Haiti.  But he spent seven months with Lee Harvey Oswald from 1962-1963, and it ended up ruining his life and his family unity.   He committed suicide at the end.

Yet Dick Russell gave us an amazing account from George's educated friends, Igor and Natasha Voshinin.   In his book, The Man Who Knew Too Much (1996), Dick Russell portrays his interview with Natasha Voshinin. They had refused to have anything to do with Lee or Marina Oswald from the start.  Just trouble, they always thought.   

On the very early morning of Easter Sunday, April 14, 1963, their friend George visited them for coffee.   He was worried; just the night before he and Jeanne had been to the Oswald's house.   Dallas radio and TV news spoke of nothing else but the shooting at General Walker three days ago, and George and Jeanne suspected Lee.  They visited the Oswald's after 10pm the night before, and Jeanne found a rifle with a scope on it.   George directly asked Lee Harvey Oswald if he had taken a potshot at General Walker.   Lee and Marina froze in time, saying nothing.   Then George laughed, and they all laughed.   Then George and Jeanne left.   They would never see the Oswalds again for the rest of their lives.   

Natasha Voshinin demanded that George call the FBI immediately and tell them.   The Belorussians in Dallas tended to be very close to the FBI, to always make clear whose side they were on during the Cold War.   They continually offered translation services to the local police and the FBI whenever asked.  Anyway, George refused, saying he could not betray a "friend" that way.  He left.  Natasha saw the plot.  George would not tell the FBI, but George would tell Igor and Natasha.   So, Natasha immediately picked up the phone and called the FBI and told the FBI everything that George had just said.  

Dick Russell's account is amazing to me, because it confirms one of the letters that I found in the personal papers of the Briscoe Center for American History at UT Austin in 2012.   It's always worth a gawk.    Here it is.  Notice how it matches the timing of Natasha Voshinin's account:

http://www.pet880.com/images/19750623_EAW_to_Frank_Church.pdf

Best regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
typos

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

 ... let's also admit that George De Mohrenschildt was also close to the Nazi Party in the early 1940's  ...

 

 

Paul,

With GdM, one never knew for sure what he was really up to.

He may have been an NKVD (or some such thing) "illegal"  spying on the Nazis and on us for all we know.

--  Tommy  :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Paul,

With GdM, one never knew for sure what he was really up to.

He may have been an NKVD (or some such thing) "illegal"  spying on the Nazis and on us for all we know.

--  Tommy  :sun

Right -- spying for SOMEONE -- though the likelihood is greater that he was always on the winning side, trying to break into the upper class, from which his family came.

I knew an elderly Russian man who served in WW2 on the German side.  He showed me his German Luger pistol and other WW2 memorabilia.  His family was from Russia.  Before the Communists took over, they were filthy rich.

As late as 1995 he was still seeking ways to get his ancestral land back!

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
typos

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Right -- spying for SOMEONE -- though the likelihood is greater that he was always on the winning side, trying to break in to the upper class, from which his family came.

I knew an elderly Russian man who served in WW2 on the German side.  He showed me his German Lugar pistol and other WW2 memorabilia.  His family was from Russia and before the Communists took over, they were filthy rich.

As late as 1995 he was still trying to find ways to get his ancestral land back!

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

 

Paul,

What are open-minded people to make of CI/SIG's Edward Clare Petty's belief that, based on some decrypted Venona intercepts Petty was analyzing shortly before he retired in 1974, George de Mohrenschild was probably a long-term KGB "illegal" in the U.S., working not against Nazi Germany, but against the good ol' U.S.A.? 

 

You know, ... like ... especially after WWII was ... like ... over?

 

--  Tommy  :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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8 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Paul,

What are open-minded people to make of CI/SIG's Edward Clare Petty's belief that, based on some decrypted Venona intercepts Petty was analyzing shortly before he retired in 1974, George de Mohrenschild was probably a long-term KGB "illegal" in the U.S., working not against Nazi Germany, but against the good ol' U.S.A.? 

You know, ... like ... especially after WWII was ... like ... over?

--  Tommy  :sun

Tommy,

James Jesus Angleton hired Clare Edward Petty in 1966 as a CIA/SIG spy to catch Moles inside the CIA.   IIRC, Petty never caught one in his career.   In 1970, frustrated by his failures, he concluded that James Jesus Angleton was a Mole, along with Anatoli Golitsin.   He became so obsessed with his theory that he began to suspect other SIG members of being Moles, as well (e.g. Newton Miler).   Failing to find final proof on Angleton, he gave up in 1973, and then retired from the CIA.

So, Clare Edward Petty couldn't find his own butt with both hands.   Everybody was a Mole to him.   His petty opinion means zilch, IMHO.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

Tommy,

James Jesus Angleton hired Clare Edward Petty in 1966 as a CIA/SIG spy to catch Moles inside the CIA.   IIRC, Petty never caught one in his career.   In 1970, frustrated by his failures, he concluded that James Jesus Angleton was a Mole, along with Anatoli Golitsin.   He became so obsessed with his theory that he began to suspect other SIG members of being Moles, as well (e.g. Newton Miler).   Failing to find final proof on Angleton, he gave up in 1973, and then retired from the CIA.

So, Clare Edward Petty couldn't find his own butt with both hands.   Everybody was a Mole to him.   His petty opinion means zilch, IMHO.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo 


According to Spartacus, Petty was instrumental in uncovering Hans Felfe, a KGB spy who had become head of West German Intelligence.  Look him up.

 

So he was wrong about Angleton's, Murphy's, and Bagley's being moles, wrong about Golitsyn's being a false defector, and wrong about Nosenko's being a true defector.  Hey, nobody's perfect!

 

I still think he was on the right track regarding George de Mohrenschildt.

According to Petty via Dick Russell, VENONA decripts indicated that the KGB "illegal" had emigrated to the U.S. before WWII,  lived in Mexico during the war, returned to the U.S., was a wheeler-dealer, and was "Polish" or some such northern Slavic nationality. 

Remember, Paul, Mozyr (in southern Belarus today) was only 300 miles to the east of the Polish border ...

 

--  Tommy  :sun

 

 

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Reaching...

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