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Keyvan Shahrdar

GEORGE DEMOHRENSCHILDT Contacted by DOD in April 1963!

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Posted (edited)

George De Mohrenschildt was a self-centered, arrogant butthead.  Because of his inner rage at the world dealing him a bad hand (e.g. giving him an aristocratic education, and then letting the Communists take his entire family Estate) he was nasty to almost everybody he met.   Jeanne married him because she was just as nasty.   She was a famous ballerinia, and her family was wealthy in Russia and China before the Communists took over -- and they had to flee to America.

I think, Tommy, that you're ignoring the plain fact that there were thousands and thousands of Slavic immigrants to the USA after the Communists took over Russia.   The overwhelming majority of them hated Communism with a purple passion.  They wanted to be rich again.    So they came here.

One of the things that George De Mohrenschildt did -- in my reading -- was to babysit Lee Harvey Oswald to please George's many contacts in the FBI and CIA.   He did this just like he would perform Russian and German language translation jobs for them.   He possibly babysat Oswald in exchange for information about oil exploration contracts, and t they gave him Haiti for his effort.

Yet because George nurtured this inner rage toward Fate, he couldn't help but ruin Lee Harvey Oswald.   He explains in his manuscript, I'm a Patsy!  I'm a Patsy! (1977) that he and Oswald shared a hatred for General Walker.  He explains that he would make Oswald laugh by calling Walker, "General Fokker."   He explains how Volkmar Schmidt also hated General Walker and joined them in these conversations.   

These two urged Oswald to shoot at General Walker -- knowingly or not.   George's "joke" question to Oswald three days later was, "Lee, why did you miss?"   All their lives were really ruined at that point.   It was downhill from there until 11/22/1963, when it was basically all over for all of them.

Walker-did-it.   That's the only correct CT.    And George De Mohrenshildt is part of the Walker saga.

It seems to me that the CIA-did-it scenario has totally run out of gas, and is now coasting on the fumes of the Hardly Lee crew.   That seems to me the main reason for the sudden paradigm shift to a KGB-did-it scenario that we've seen in recent weeks.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo

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1 hour ago, Paul Trejo said:

One of the things that George De Mohrenschildt did -- in my reading -- was to babysit Lee Harvey Oswald to please George's many contacts in the FBI and CIA.   He did this just like he would perform Russian and German language translation jobs for them.   He possibly babysat Oswald in exchange for information about oil exploration contracts, and t they gave him Haiti for his effort.

... 

These two urged Oswald to shoot at General Walker -- knowingly or not.   George's "joke" question to Oswald three days later was, "Lee, why did you miss?"   All their lives were really ruined at that point.   It was downhill from there until 11/22/1963, when it was basically all over for all of them.

...

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Hi Paul,

Saying that DeMohrenschildt babysits for the FBI and CIA gets pretty close to saying the CIA and FBI had some level of responsibility, influence, or control over Oswald, don't you think?  Do you mean to say that he was used as an informant to keep track of Oswald or something more?

The documents below are from one of the early Gemberling (FBI) reports, which for all of 63 and 64 serve as kind of running rough draft and central clearinghouse of all assassination evidence.   

The information below is attributed to Marina.   This memorializes the conversation you mention where George asks how Lee could miss hitting General Walker.  A little-appreciated tidbit is that Marina lived with Gary Taylor (DeMohrenschildt's son-in-law) briefly in 1962.

 

De_M_Oswald_blanche.png
oswald_with_De_M_son.png

 

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

dupe

.

Quote

.......

It seems to me that the CIA-did-it scenario has totally run out of gas, and is now coasting on the fumes of the Hardly Lee crew.   That seems to me the main reason for the sudden paradigm shift to a KGB-did-it scenario that we've seen in recent weeks.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

Paul,

 

With all due respect --  Paradigm shift? 

Seeing as how I'm the only member who has been propounding the outrageous theory that the KGB might have killed Kennedy, or at least programmed and trained LHO to "do the deed" and then a-bit-too-late got cold feet (Khrushchev, that is), I'm honored to know that you are laboring under the delusion that I, Tommy Graves, am so incredibly influential in the JFK Assassination Research Community as to have somehow engineered a paradigm shift of such a controversial nature!

Regard-less.

As I have pointed out a couple of times over the last month or so, my not-so-grand theory is rather flexible and evolving.  As proof of that I would like to inform you that I'm now thinking along the lines that the Ruskies didn't kill JFK after all, but that Fidel Castro (whom I believe secretly held a great amount of enmity towards Khrushchev and Kennedy) did, and very cleverly "patsied" both the KGB and the CIA in the process.

Maybe Castro realized that Mr. K was trying to patsy both Cuba and the USA, and piggybacked Mr. K's op?

 

--  Tommy  :sun

 

Factoid:  In describing the virtual ( i.e., non existent ) 9/27/63 Oswald Impostor in such a way as to practically scream out "KGB 'diplomat' Nikolai Leonov" to the HSCA lawyers in 1978, Cuban (former consul) Eusebio Azcue was obviously describing Leonov's hair color in definite, not just lighter than jet black versus jet black Hispanic traditional terms (e.g.,"rubio") when he volunteered that the Oswald he'd dealt with was either...... "blond or dark-blond."

 

And no, Paul, regardless of what you might say, "dark blond" does not describe Lee Harvey Oswald's hair color.

 

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

 

   .......

The documents below are from one of the early Gemberling (FBI) reports, which for all of 63 and 64 serve as kind of running rough draft and central clearinghouse of all assassination evidence.   

The information below is attributed to Marina.   

   .......

 

De_M_Oswald_blanche.png
oswald_with_De_M_son.png

 

 

Jason,

 

Thanks for posting this document.

I didn't realize that Marina had reported that GdM was often accused of being a Communist.

Hmm.

 

--  Tommy  :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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5 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Jason,

 

Thanks for posting this document.

I didn't realize that Marina had reported that GdM was often accused of being a Communist.

Hmm.

 

--  Tommy  :sun

Tommy,

In the 1950s - early 1960s, anything but a very conservative social and political mindset might earn a commie label from the John Birch Society and Minutemen types prominent in Dallas of the era.  For instance, Ted Dealey, whose family name is synonymous with the assassination, was a notorious pillar of McCarthyism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Musgrove_Dealey

Jason

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2 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Tommy,

In the 1950s - early 1960s, anything but a very conservative social and political mindset might earn a commie label from the John Birch Society and Minutemen types prominent in Dallas of the era.  For instance, Ted Dealey, whose family name is synonymous with the assassination, was a notorious pillar of McCarthyism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Musgrove_Dealey

Jason

Jason,

Gee, I didn't know that.

--  Tommy  :sun

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23 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Hi Paul,

Saying that DeMohrenschildt babysits for the FBI and CIA gets pretty close to saying the CIA and FBI had some level of responsibility, influence, or control over Oswald, don't you think?  Do you mean to say that he was used as an informant to keep track of Oswald or something more?

The documents below are from one of the early Gemberling (FBI) reports, which for all of 63 and 64 serve as kind of running rough draft and central clearinghouse of all assassination evidence.   

The information below is attributed to Marina.   This memorializes the conversation you mention where George asks how Lee could miss hitting General Walker.  A little-appreciated tidbit is that Marina lived with Gary Taylor (DeMohrenschildt's son-in-law) briefly in 1962.

Jason,

Great to hear from you again.  :)     So, here's my opinion:

1.   I think it is at least possible that George DM babysat LHO for the FBI/CIA just to be certain that LHO was not KGB.   This would have been late in 1962, and so the motive is unclear for me.

2.  I doubt strongly that the FBI or the CIA had any influence at all over LHO, who was a smart-alek, disobedient and uncooperative.    

3.   Instead, it was precisely because the FBI/CIA failed utterly to control LHO that they asked George DM to babysit.    See my point?

4.  I mean to say that it is at least possible that George DM was an informant for the FBI/CIA to track Oswald, and nothing more.   

6.  In my opinion, George DM was interested in money, first and foremost.  He wanted an oil exploration contract, and nobody in Dallas would give him one.   He was worthy -- he was talented -- but he was also a lousy Russian during the Cold War, and none of the good ole boys wanted to bother with him.

7.  So, in my opinion, George DM was clean.  He was not KGB.   He was not a secret Nazi for the "Invisible Fourth Reich."    George DM just wanted to be rich again.   That's all he ever wanted.

8.  As for the FBI documents you shared -- the fact is that all of that information was given by Marina in her WC testimony.    All of it.

9.  That includes the bit about Marina living with George DM's daughter, Alexandria, and son-in-law, Gary Taylor -- for a short while.  

10.   The rumor about George being connected to Communists came from Gary Taylor himself.   We know this because it's part of his WC testimony.

11.  George DM never liked Gary Taylor -- he was too low-brow for the likes of George DM, who thought his daughter, Alexandria, deserved better.  

12.  Gary Taylor actually was an ignoramus about politics.  He couldn't tell a Conservative from Radical to save his life.  He told the WC (and Marina, obviously) that he thought his father-in-law was a Communist because of his walking trip to Mexico, where George and Jeanne took photographs the whole trip, including photographs of an aging icon of the Communist Party in Mexico.   That was his whole evidence.   What a moron.

All best,
--Paul

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Tommy,

In the 1950s - early 1960s, anything but a very conservative social and political mindset might earn a commie label from the John Birch Society and Minutemen types prominent in Dallas of the era.  For instance, Ted Dealey, whose family name is synonymous with the assassination, was a notorious pillar of McCarthyism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Musgrove_Dealey

Jason

Jason,

With all due respect, don't you think it's a little strange that someone who hid her Communist Party affiliation (Komsomol membership) from U.S. authorities would call attention to allegations of someone else's Red-ness and then dismiss said allegations as though (perish the thought!) she had never even thought of becoming a Young Communist or ... gasp ... a Leningrad-based KGB honey-trapping prostitute, herself?

--  Tommy  :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Thomas Graves said:

Jason,

With all due respect, don't you think it's a little strange that someone who hid her Communist Party affiliation (Komsomol membership) from U.S. authorities would call attention to allegations of someone else's Red-ness and then dismiss said allegations as though (perish the thought!) she had never even thought of becoming a Young Communist or ... gasp ... a Leningrad-based KGB honey-trapping prostitute, herself?

--  Tommy  :sun

Hi Tommy,

(who is the "all due respect" for --- me or Marina?  ok, doesn't matter)...

Anyway, I might ask if you are employing a somewhat broad definition of "communist" and applying it equally in scenarios where the precise implication of the word is different, depending on the context?

1. Marina saying in the aftermath of the assassination that de Mohrenschildt is no communist invokes the social-ideological use of the word, IMO.   In other words, he's a capitalist, which we all know he is.   In other other words, he's the type who has airy intellectual sermons about government and economics and who undoubtedly advances a progressive ("European" style in 63) ("Nordic" style today) social outlook about sexuality, marriage, crime, the plight of the poor, and so forth.  Yet, George loves money and is ideologically or nationally promiscuous if he thinks it will return the fortune of his ancestors.    He's no communist in the Karl Marx sense of the word.  

vs.

2. The Communist Party affiliation (Komsomol membership) is something ENTIRELY different than what Marina is taking about re: de Mohrenschildt.  (I'm taking it on faith that what you say is true about Marina here.) The USSR was not communism.  It was a brutal authoritarian regime advertising itself as communism.   It was Putin 30 years ago, only then he called himself a communist.  Young and not-too-independent-minded girls like Marina joined Komsomol for the same reason I buy car insurance; it's the safe thing to do, suggested by the authorities, and the routine for anyone who wants to fit in to polite society - although it is of disputed use/value.

Maybe Marina would have gladly sold her body as a KGB honey-trapping prostitute, sure, but this has nothing to do with communism.   Marina is a simple girl, ideologically a blank page.  At her strongest, she's ideologically naive.  She's not communist nor capitalist nor anything; she just wants the same thing most simple girls of the day on both sides of the Cold War want - husband, home, kids, security.  IMO.  

 

Jason

From the HSCA report.  George DeMohrenschildt writing about Lee and Marina:

 

George_De_M_on_Marina.png

Edited by Jason Ward

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

 

     .......

 

Jason,

 

Are you intentionally missing my point?

Gleefully granted, lots of people in the USSR (from whence George de Mohrenschildt emigrated to the U.S. in 1938, and Marina Oswald -- née Marina Nikolayevna Prusakova, or some-such thing -- likewise did in 1962) joined the Communist Party (a prerequisite to joining the NKVD/KGB/GRU/MVD if one were so inclined) not for ideological reasons per se, but for the practical reason of "getting ahead" / "not having to wait in line for an hour to buy a roll of toilet paper" in the corrupt police state known as the USSR.

In order to remain in good standing with said organizations, they had to learn not only how to walk the walk, but talk the talk, da?

But wait.  Why would Marina in a backhanded manner even suggest, via rumors of allegations, that George might have been Red (read: KGB), if not to exculpate herself from any similar such suspicions?

That's the point I was trying to make, I guess.

A reverse psychology disinfo op if you will ... not on my part, but on Marina's.

 

Get it?

 

--  Tommy  :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves

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4 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

 

Jason,

 

Are you intentionally missing my point?

Gleefully granted, lots of people in the USSR (from whence George de Mohrenschildt emigrated to the U.S. in 1938, and Marina Oswald -- née Marina Nikolayevna Prusakova, or some-such thing -- likewise did in 1962) joined the Communist Party (a prerequisite to joining the NKVD/KGB/GRU/MVD if one were so inclined) not for ideological reasons per se, but for the practical reason of "getting ahead" / "not having to wait in line for an hour to buy a roll of toilet paper" in the corrupt police state known as the USSR.

In order to remain in good standing with said organizations, they had to learn not only how to walk the walk, but talk the talk, da?

But wait.  Why would Marina in a backhanded manner even suggest, via rumors of allegations, that George might have been Red (read: KGB), if not to exculpate herself from any similar such suspicions?

That's the point I was trying to make, I guess.

A reverse psychology disinfo op if you will ... not on my part, but on Marina's.

 

Get it?

 

--  Tommy  :sun

Tommy, I see your point.  Now.

The Gemberling document I posted was a rough draft summary compiled from interview notes, not a transcript.   Marina was probably asked if George was a communist, among other direct questions about him.  What you see above is a compendium of all her answers to all questions.  As she is not one to volunteer much extraneous information in her interviews, "communist" was certainly a word mentioned first by her questioner.

Likewise, I'm sure she didn't deny that LHO was gay in some sort of "reverse psychology disinfo op."  She was asked a series of questions routine in the era, an era when establishing someone's communism and/or homosexuality was a shortcut to establishing guilt, or at least justified suspicion.

 

Jason

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On 3/3/2018 at 7:22 PM, Jason Ward said:

Hi Paul,

Saying that DeMohrenschildt babysits for the FBI and CIA gets pretty close to saying the CIA and FBI had some level of responsibility, influence, or control over Oswald, don't you think?  Do you mean to say that he was used as an informant to keep track of Oswald or something more?

The documents below are from one of the early Gemberling (FBI) reports, which for all of 63 and 64 serve as kind of running rough draft and central clearinghouse of all assassination evidence.   

The information below is attributed to Marina.   This memorializes the conversation you mention where George asks how Lee could miss hitting General Walker.  A little-appreciated tidbit is that Marina lived with Gary Taylor (DeMohrenschildt's son-in-law) briefly in 1962.

 

De_M_Oswald_blanche.png
oswald_with_De_M_son.png

 

Jason, good to have you back again. 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Jason Ward said:

Tommy, I see your point.  Now.

The Gemberling document I posted was a rough draft summary compiled from interview notes, not a transcript.   Marina was probably asked if George was a communist, among other direct questions about him.  What you see above is a compendium of all her answers to all questions.  As she is not one to volunteer much extraneous information in her interviews, "communist" was certainly a word mentioned first by her questioner.

Likewise, I'm sure she didn't deny that LHO was gay in some sort of "reverse psychology disinfo op."  She was asked a series of questions routine in the era, an era when establishing someone's communism and/or homosexuality was a shortcut to establishing guilt, or at least justified suspicion.

 

Jason

You still apparently don't "get it," Jason.

I'm saying a good way for KGB "illegal" Marina to pro-actively deflect suspicions about her own "Communist" / "communist" (KGB) nature was to draw attention to (probably nonexistent) allegations by friends and acquaintances of  DeMorhenschildt that HE was a Communist, and then deny those allegations against him, whether said "allegations" were correct or not.

--  Tommy  :sun

PS  "Gay"?

Who said anything about "gay"?

Gemberling?

Hoover?

Tolson?

Edited by Thomas Graves

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Jason...

not too far off...  while :sun would like everything to relate to the KGB... it doesn't.  (notice the lack of supporting ANYTHING? for these theories?)

the homosexual aspect of this crime is not to be understated...   Shaw, Ferrie, Banister(?), Oswald, Ruby, Senator and more...

Check the "evaluation".   Now we'll get the gay KGB angle from our man of wit and wisdom...   <_<

5a4ebcbabb2e8_63-12-02OswaldandRubyhomosexualloversDallasT-1Summer1963beforeMexico.thumb.jpg.6cc9777b65332722a383b16dae34c545.jpg

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