Guest Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 On 12/3/2017 at 8:57 AM, Michael Walton said: It's good to see David saying what the real case for this - a simple matter of getting the names mixed up. It happens - all the time. Clerical errors. Keep in mind too that Russians may not understand how when we fill out forms like "Oswald, Lee Harvey" as in last name, first middle, they read it in reverse to make it come to Harvey Lee Oswald. It has nothing to do with secret agent stuff, with Oswald and clone living in each other's shadows. Nothing like that ever happened. I agree. For one thing, "Lee" "Harvey" and "Oswald" are all potential first names - quite easy to transpose, even for an American bureaucrat. For another, you'd have to be familiar with Russian culture to realize how puzzling non-Russian names can be to them. Many American/English names do have Russian counterparts, but neither Lee, Harvey nor Oswald do. I recall reading that LHO was originally dubbed Alik by Rima because Lee sounded Chinese and was likely to confuse the Russians. Lastly, we have LHO's propensity to play games with his name even when this was completely unnecessary (e.g., "O. H. Lee" at the Dallas rooming house). As Marina said, he simply enjoyed lying and game-playing even when it served no purpose. I think it is highly likely that the answer to the Harvey Lee Oswald "mystery" is to be found in some combination of these factors. As for the "citizen" reference, this strikes me as a perfect example of Conspiracy Logic. In any other context, we would assume that a reference to "citizen Oswald" was simply the formalistic bureaucratic equivalent of "Comrade Oswald" or "Mr. Oswald" or "Minsk resident Oswald" - i.e., that it was simply bureaucratic jargon and had no legal significance whatsoever. (FYI, it is somewhat humorous that the State Department translation uses the term comrade. When my wife first arrived, I would jokingly use the term and get blank stares from her. She assures me no Russian would react to the term comrade unless he had been watching a lot of American movies, The actual term - roughly "tah-VAR-ish" - is more like "friend," but with a connotation suggesting "fellow revolutionary.") But Conspiracy Logic demands that there can never be a simple human error or mere sloppiness where the JFK assassination is concerned. What would be insignificant in any other context must have massive significance and deepen the Mystery that we prefer. Ergo, this single reference to "citizen" means that whoever wrote it Knew Something and calls into doubt the otherwise irrefutable reality that LHO did not become a citizen of the USSR. If someone went through the educational records, medical records, resumes and job histories of Little Old Lance with the same electron microscope that Conspiracy Theorists apply to LHO, I guarantee you Little Old Lance would appear to be an exceedingly mysterious individual - and a lot of the "mystery" would be due to my own sloppiness, forgetfulness, dissembling and butt-covering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 FWIW, I found this in an introduction to one of Solzhenitsyn’s books: “Basically, the word ‘comrade’ was used very much like an English speaker would use ‘Mr.’ or ‘Mrs.’ in everyday speech. It can also be used in conjunction with a person’s rank or position. Hence, a Russian might hail a doctor as ‘Comrade Doctor.” The word ‘citizen’ was used less than ‘comrade’ as a form of address, but it was always used in certain formal situations, such as in the courtroom. People who found themselves in the dock were not accorded the honour of being called ‘comrade.’" My wife confirmed that the word for citizen - "grazh-DA-neen" - is a more formal and less "friendly" term than the word translated as comrade. She pointed out that it is used indiscriminately. If American Lance were walking down the street and a police officer wanted to stop him, the officer would shout "Stop, citizen!" She also pointed out that in the Soviet system there was no word used in the way that we use Mr., Mrs., sir or madam. She said this led to very awkward situations in addressing someone you didn't know - a clerk in a store, for example. To just say "Hey, you!" was considered rude, so "citizen" served in this context as well. Further support that the references to “citizen Oswald” were simply bureaucratese. I seriously doubt the author was thinking in terms of “Is this unsatisfactory factory worker we are describing a bona fide citizen of the USSR?” As usual, Much Ado About Nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted April 18, 2018 Share Posted April 18, 2018 Hey Steve, Going thru the recent doc release I found this... https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/104-10210-10003.pdf It goes into detail about the different IDENTITY CARDS issued for Oswald... Hope it helps DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted April 18, 2018 Author Share Posted April 18, 2018 27 minutes ago, David Josephs said: Hey Steve, Going thru the recent doc release I found this... https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/104-10210-10003.pdf It goes into detail about the different IDENTITY CARDS issued for Oswald... Hope it helps DJ David, Thanks, Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B. A. Copeland Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 Steve could a molehunt/marked card perspective or technique fit in this interesting scenario at all? This is fascinating.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 Steve... Wanted to show you yet another example of HARVEY LEE OSWALD... the Hardship discharge... this is prepared by Oswald, for his mother, with the help of Chief Warrant Officer Ed Spahr.. and submitted AUG 17, 1963... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted May 18, 2018 Share Posted May 18, 2018 On 4/18/2018 at 2:06 PM, Steve Thomas said: David, Thanks, Steve Thomas Got another for you Steve... https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2018/104-10418-10332.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted May 19, 2018 Author Share Posted May 19, 2018 23 hours ago, David Josephs said: Got another for you Steve... https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2018/104-10418-10332.pdf David, With these two references, that makes at least 27 instances I've run across. Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted May 19, 2018 Author Share Posted May 19, 2018 On 4/20/2018 at 7:17 PM, B. A. Copeland said: Steve could a molehunt/marked card perspective or technique fit in this interesting scenario at all? This is fascinating.... B.A., I could be wrong, but I've come to believe that's just what it was. Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted May 19, 2018 Share Posted May 19, 2018 Over in Helsinki, looks like the same two we will see on Mexico documents. Fond the images of the hotel docs.... interesting experiment if nothing else... hiding spies within the names and histories of each other combined into one recognized person.... the perfect ghost.... the real lee Oswald? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Thomas Posted May 19, 2018 Author Share Posted May 19, 2018 On 5/18/2018 at 2:44 PM, David Josephs said: Got another for you Steve... https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/2018/104-10418-10332.pdf David, I Looked up the definition of RYBAT GPFLOOR. For example: 104-10087-10054: THE 201 SYSTEM "This internal CIA description of the 201 file system makes note of the sensitivity of RYBAT-marked documents: "To retain the P&L, RYBAT, or KAPOK sensitivity of a document remaining in a 201 dossier being retired to Central Files, place that document in an envelope sealed with black tape..."" My my. Steve Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Simpich Posted May 19, 2018 Share Posted May 19, 2018 Steve, Two items you may appreciate: 1. I agree with you that we see the Description 5 foot 10, 165 from Marguerite - but I think John Fain and Egerter dreamed it up as spoor for the mole hunt- if you look at Chapter 1 of State Secret, it was the description for Robert Webster! Then it became saddled onto Oswald as well. 2. I agree with you that Harvey Lee Oswald was a military alias - that way they could deny having anything of import in the Lee Harvey Oswald file. Army Intel had a HLO file on11/22/63 - destroyed it without good cause in 1973. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 Hey there Steve... thought you might find this interesting related to "The HARVEY Story" T.B.C. ??? previous paragraph says "I was phasing into LPOVER cover assignment & out of KUDOVE" https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32272374.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Boylan Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 David this was Thomas B. Casasin aka Jacques Richardson. He was very interested in Oswald. Casasin – Jacques Richardson https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=18951&relPageId=2&search=Casasin https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=50600&relPageId=2&search=Casasin https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=31476&search=Casasin#relPageId=2&tab=page http://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/jfk/NARA-Oct2017/NARA-Nov9-2017/104-10065-10082.pdf http://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/jfk/NARA-Oct2017/NARA-Nov9-2017/104-10127-10035.pdf http://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/jfk/NARA-Oct2017/NARA-Nov9-2017/104-10127-10007.pdf http://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/jfk/NARA-Oct2017/NARA-Nov9-2017/104-10322-10154.pdf on LHO - http://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/jfk/NARA-Oct2017/docid-32347922.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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