MC 6.5mm Ballistic Testing

[Al Carrier]

I posted this on Lancer this past summer. For those who have not seen it and are interested in what this bullet does:

There has been a great deal of discussion on wound ballistics and shot origin on the forum and I have for some time being planning to do more experimentation to show the results on the forum regarding wound ballistics and how a particular bullet would perform under various circumstances. I have recently competed some testing with a bullet consistent with the WW 6.5mm MC of 160gr FMJ with a similar muzzle velocity. In this test, there are factors that vary from the head wound of JFK. Such as, I utilized a 10% ballistic gelatin block in order to make it self-supportive without being contained. 5% ballistic gelatin composition would be much more consistent with the interior skull cavity, but it would not hold up on its own without being in a container. By having it self- supportive, the wound channel could be much easier viewed and photographed. The other problem with using a self supportive block is there is less containment pressure within the cavity, unlike you would see with an enclosed skull cavity. I compromised this to use it as a starting point for those who are unfamiliar with ballistics, and more importantly, wound ballistics.

I have attached a diagram I made of the gelatin block after firing the test shot. I made this diagram off the computer, from a hand sketch I did after the shot was fired. I had not planned on utilizing a diagram, but instead a photo, but unfortunately, my photos did not develop for some reason. Another reason for going to a digital camera, I guess.

I have added below the specifics of the testing block and bullet. What it does show is that this particular bullet will not fragment, nor does there need to be a compromised, fragmenting bullet to achieve the wound cavity as seen in the assassination of JFK. It further supports that the brain would not have been intact and have such weight retention, as the autopsy reports led us to be believe. By firing 1’ off-angle to the penetration plate, the direct line of wound path through the gelatin block shows how the bullet will not deflect, but instead turn inward as the energy is absorbed through penetration.

Diagram of 6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano 160gr FMJ Bullet Fired Into 12”x12”x24”

10% Ballistic Gelatin Block After Bullet Penetrates 3/8” Masonry Plate

Bullet Fired From MC Model 91

Muzzle Velocity – 2038fps

Impact Velocity – 2019fps

Shot Origin to Point of Impact – 15yds

Angle of Offset from Origin to Target – 1’

Maximum Wound Cavity Expansion – 7.25”

Depth of Penetration – 22”

Expanded Bullet Diameter – 8.1mm/.32”

Retained Bullet Weight – 139gr

Jacket Separation – None

Jacket Disruption – Nose Cone at 4.7mm core exposure

Comments, questions and concerns are encouraged.

Al

Edited December 2, 2004 by Al Carrier

[Nancy Eldreth]

Just a simple question.

How can a bullet go through Kennedy, then through Connelly as many times as it did?

Then to go to Robert Kennedy being shot at close range and not go through anyone else?

Is it more the distance gives the greater strength to a bullet and the short it is shot less? Seems to me it would be the other way around?

Not to often have I ever heard a bullet going through that much body bone tissue?

I can see a bird getting shot it going through and shooting more birds one a one bullet, that would make sense? But not human bone mass.

[Al Carrier]

Just a simple question.

How can a bullet go through Kennedy, then through Connelly as many times as it did?

Then to go to Robert Kennedy being shot at close range and not go through anyone else?

Is it more the distance gives the greater strength to a bullet and the short it is shot less?  Seems to me it would be the other way around?

Not to often have I ever heard a bullet going through that much body bone tissue?

I can see a bird getting shot it going through and shooting more birds one a one bullet, that would make sense?  But not human bone mass.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nancy,

In dealing with the JFK Assassination and the RFK assassination, we are dealing with two totally different ballistic issues. In JFK, we are dealing with a heavier, higher velocity projecticle that sustaines velocity much greater than the pistol caliber projectile of the RFK Assassination. In JFK, the velocities would have been greater than 1800fps and bullet weight in the 150+gr range. In the RFK, the velocities would be under 1400fps and bullet weight of under 70gr.

Al

[Ron Ecker]

Al,

In the RFK assassination, the bullet also had a magical quality, as after being fired from a few feet in front of RFK it circled around and hit him point blank behind the ear.

Ron

[Shanet Clark]

Robert Kennedy showed immense courage and concern for his country when he decided to run for President. The same systematic conspiratorial forces then responded in an equally violent manner, utterly confirming that Dallas was indeed an organized governmental conspiracy.

You can't hide the murder, but you can "interpret" the evidence any way you want, if the force of authority is behind you...hence "magical bullets" doing "impossible things".......

I told a friend of mine the other day that covert assassination technology was improved between 1963 and 1968, but the similarities of Sirhan Sirhan to Lee Harvey Oswald are notable. They were both put in place 'Manchurian Candidate' style, but could not be trusted to "finish the deed"

hence, suspicious extra rounds were fired from other angles...............

[John Ritchson]

I posted this on Lancer this past summer. For those who have not seen it and are interested in what this bullet does:

There has been a great deal of discussion on wound ballistics and shot origin on the forum and I have for some time being planning to do more experimentation to show the results on the forum regarding wound ballistics and how a particular bullet would perform under various circumstances. I have recently competed some testing with a bullet consistent with the WW 6.5mm MC of 160gr FMJ with a similar muzzle velocity. In this test, there are factors that vary from the head wound of JFK. Such as, I utilized a 10% ballistic gelatin block in order to make it self-supportive without being contained. 5% ballistic gelatin composition would be much more consistent with the interior skull cavity, but it would not hold up on its own without being in a container. By having it self- supportive, the wound channel could be much easier viewed and photographed. The other problem with using a self supportive block is there is less containment pressure within the cavity, unlike you would see with an enclosed skull cavity. I compromised this to use it as a starting point for those who are unfamiliar with ballistics, and more importantly, wound ballistics.

I have attached a diagram I made of the gelatin block after firing the test shot. I made this diagram off the computer, from a hand sketch I did after the shot was fired. I had not planned on utilizing a diagram, but instead a photo, but unfortunately, my photos did not develop for some reason. Another reason for going to a digital camera, I guess.

I have added below the specifics of the testing block and bullet. What it does show is that this particular bullet will not fragment, nor does there need to be a compromised, fragmenting bullet to achieve the wound cavity as seen in the assassination of JFK. It further supports that the brain would not have been intact and have such weight retention, as the autopsy reports led us to be believe. By firing 1’ off-angle to the penetration plate, the direct line of wound path through the gelatin block shows how the bullet will not deflect, but instead turn inward as the energy is absorbed through penetration.

Diagram of 6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano 160gr FMJ Bullet Fired Into 12”x12”x24”

10% Ballistic Gelatin Block After Bullet Penetrates 3/8” Masonry Plate

Bullet Fired From MC Model 91

Muzzle Velocity – 2038fps

Impact Velocity – 2019fps

Shot Origin to Point of Impact – 15yds

Angle of Offset from Origin to Target – 1’

Maximum Wound Cavity Expansion – 7.25”

Depth of Penetration – 22”

Expanded Bullet Diameter – 8.1mm/.32”

Retained Bullet Weight – 139gr

Jacket Separation – None

Jacket Disruption – Nose Cone at 4.7mm core exposure

Comments, questions and concerns are encouraged.

Al

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good Work Al

The only comment I can make on this issue is the use of the 10% ballistic gel. which I think would give a larger cavity expansion due to the greater impartion of energy due to the greater mass of the gel. But, I undertand completely your need for a [stand-up] target mass. What I would like to see is how a human skull filled with 5% ballistic gel. and covered with fresh pig-skin would behave under the same testing parameters. What do you think?

Respectfully:

[Nic Martin]

Al,

In the RFK assassination, the bullet also had a magical quality, as after being fired from a few feet in front of RFK it circled around and hit him point blank behind the ear.

Ron

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That has been explained before, although - like the SBT - is a bit difficult to believe.

[Al Carrier]

Good Work Al

The only comment I can make on this issue is the use of the 10% ballistic gel. which I think would give a larger cavity expansion due to the greater impartion of energy due to the greater mass of the gel. But, I undertand completely your need for a [stand-up] target mass. What I would like to see is how a human skull filled with 5% ballistic gel. and covered with fresh pig-skin would behave under the same testing parameters. What do you think?

Respectfully:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

John,

I worked on a model to produce similar penetration resistance and internal pressures that would similuate as close as possible what we would need for a headshot, using other materials. I used a latex balloon and filled it with 5% ballistic geletin and allowed it to set. This hardened the latex somewhat but still provided a pliable containment as in dura. I then placed five layers of plaster of paris over the latex, allowing each layer to semi-harden to provide a shelving as one would find in skull plates.

I then fired this bullet into this material with the same off-set and produced a small entrance, a widening furough and then an explosive exit. The bullet had minimal deformity on the nose cone and extrusion out the open base. While it shows this 6.5mm MC bullet could produce such a wound as seen in Zapruder, it is not inclusive to this bullet but to a FMJ rifle caliber bullet of similar ballistic qualities. I also performed the same with a .308 AE FMJ in 150gr and the difference was a side opening due to the greater internal pressure within the cavity of the heavier and higher velocity bullet. This is actually more comparible to what is seen in the films in DP and especially Zapruder with the skull flap which is also documented in the Bethesda reports and photos.

As we both know, minimal offset can create variables in the results of such testing as well as the materials and thickness of same, it does show how such a wound could have occurred.

Interested in your comments on this...

Al

[Tom Kutzer]

This is possibly off topic, however it's something I've been curious about...

LHO's supposed weapon is an Italian made 6.5mm....

If you were going to pin this weapon on the assassin, would it not make sense to use that calibre as the one of choice that day?

Accounting for fragments would be made much easier, as any fragment or whole bullets would be linked to LHO's weapon. Even the same ammo batch could be used.

I recently came across an Italian made semi-auto rifle, WW2 era, that would fit the bill....supposedly accurate, but not widely issued due to the suseptibility of the action to dirt and typical battlefield conditions.

10,000 were manufactured, according to my web-source.

Theoretically, it would account for the "fusillade" of shots.

also, btw, I think Weismann(?) made an honest mistake of identification.

Apologies for using the words "supposed" and "theoretically"....but hey...

thanks, T.

[Shanet Clark]

Kutzer has a good point, but looking at how it SHOULD have been done (w/matching rifles) is less worthwhile than looking at what WAS done...

Kind of like the "faces in the crowd" debate....'''gee, it don't make no sense""

thanks for participating, look forward to your posts....

Very interesting conclusions, Al.

So a larger rifle is more likely to cause the "tangential" right temple wound.

This hurts the Files scenario but supports the badgeman/classic gunman theme.

(I know Wim will object to this)

Al--what do you think of the seminar paper by Dr. Minken (sp) "Autopsy Evidence"

Is his view as convincing as Pat Speers' more conventional interpretation?

In other words what ballistic baseline do we use when interpreting angles and penetration tendencies?

I certainly believe the right rear headwound was covered up.

It also looks like the skull and brain photos were misinterpreted by the HSAC in 1977.

When all the evidence (including evidence of forgery) is considered, where did the shots come from, and how many?

I am also eager to hear from you concerning John Connally's wounds,

what were these shots origins, in your professional opinion?

Thank You, (I hope you don't get into trouble shooting at the dummy heads!!!!

We don't do that here where I'm from..........kidding)

Shanet

[Al Carrier]

This is possibly off topic, however it's something I've been curious about...

LHO's supposed weapon is an Italian made 6.5mm....

If you were going to pin this weapon on the assassin, would it not make sense to use that calibre as the one of choice that day?

Accounting for fragments would be made much easier, as any fragment or whole bullets would be linked to LHO's weapon. Even the same ammo batch could be used.

I recently came across an Italian made semi-auto rifle, WW2 era, that would fit the bill....supposedly accurate, but not widely issued due to the suseptibility of the action to dirt and typical battlefield conditions.

10,000 were manufactured, according to my web-source.

Theoretically, it would account for the "fusillade" of shots.

also, btw, I think Weismann(?) made an honest mistake of identification.

Apologies for using the words "supposed" and "theoretically"....but hey...

thanks, T.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tom,

You make excellent points and I guess it would come down to if this played out to cover evidence of additional assasins by the planners or if the evidence logged was selectively chosen by those who covered it up, while the planners and operators would care less and even gladly leave evidence of multiple shooters, after the act.

The issue I still have is relying on the quality of the weapon for such an operation and the less than quality ballistic and accuracy issues with this particular caliber.

Thanks for the e-mail, sorry about not getting back to you. The info is greatly appreciated and I will try and hunt one of these down.

Al

[Al Carrier]

Very interesting conclusions, Al.

So a larger rifle is more likely to cause the "tangential" right temple wound.

This hurts the Files scenario but supports the badgeman/classic gunman theme.

(I know Wim will object to this)

Al--what do you think of the seminar paper by Dr. Minken (sp) "Autopsy Evidence"

Is his view as convincing as Pat Speers' more conventional interpretation?

In other words what ballistic baseline do we use when interpreting angles and penetration tendencies?

I certainly believe the right rear headwound was covered up.

It also looks like the skull and brain photos were misinterpreted by the HSAC in 1977.

When all the evidence (including evidence of forgery) is considered, where did the shots come from, and how many?

I am also eager to hear from you concerning John Connally's wounds,

what were these shots origins, in your professional opinion?

Thank You, (I hope you don't get into trouble shooting at the dummy heads!!!!

We don't do that here where I'm from..........kidding)

Shanet

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Shanet,

I am not saying that the .221 could not have caused this wound, but I challenge the angle of trajectory more than I do the load. There is a rollover of energy through impact of resistant by penetrable material such as the skull that causes the bullet to roll inward as opposed to deflecting. A shot origin from the right would create damage to the left portion of the skull upon exit.

Both Dr. Minkin and Pat Speers work was excellent. There are so many variables in recreating wounds and in order to have an inclusive database to satisfy all, the tests would have to be numerous with repeating all angle variations. I have yet to see data on recreation to accept a rear entry that would keep the frontal lobe intact. The energy dispersion through the path of the cavity would create considerable disruption both internally and externally. The x-rays do show this to a degree, yet none of the photos, films or witness accounts for this degree of trauma to the frontal lobe or orbitals that would be an obvious result, is there.

I have opnions on Connally's wounds but they are not worth posting as there is still too many questions as to when the wounds actually occurred. Lancer has had ongoing discussions on this and several researchers make excellent arguements for different timeframes. I am confident however that the CE399 did not inflict the wound to the governor's wrist. This is rediculous from a wound ballistic standpoint and anyone who believes in it should try to repeat it in any form of recreation. CE399 is far to pristine to have caused this.

Would appreciate hearing from John and Ryan on this also.

Al

Edited December 4, 2004 by Al Carrier

[Shanet Clark]

Thanks Al, you are a gentleman and a scholar.

One more question:

Both the Zapruder film and the Nix film show Jackie chasing some material (skull or brains) back onto the rear car hood, while the limousine is moving at less than 10 miles an hour. Is there any way that this could have happened if the shots all came from the 6th floor of the Texas School Book Depository?

[Tom Kutzer]

Thanks for your responses, gentlemen...

Al, I would have my doubts as to accuracy as well.

Just something I was mulling over on a slow day....

[Al Carrier]

Thanks Al, you are a gentleman and a scholar.

One more question:

Both the Zapruder film and the Nix film show Jackie chasing some material (skull or brains) back onto the rear car hood, while the limousine is moving at less than 10 miles an hour.  Is there any way that this could have happened if the shots all came from the 6th floor of the Texas School Book Depository?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Shanet,

IMO, Which I base my experience and more so on the expertise of Sherry over at Lancer who is a Blood Stain Pattern Analyst and who is recognized here as a handful of experts in the field, no, it is not possible. Check out the Lancer forum on her postings and threads which show spatter issues of entry and exit. Bill Miller has also posted on several of these tests which show a fine narrow mist of blood and fluid at point of entry and a wide pattern of blood, fluid and debris at the point of exit. The rate of limo does not even configure with the rate of dispersion of the wound(s).

Al