Yuri Nosenko

[Jim Root]

From the "Education on the Internet & Teaching History Online"

"Yuri Nosenko was deputy chief of the Seventh Department of the KGB. His main responsibility was the recruitment of foreign spies.

In June 1962 Nosenko made contact with the CIA in Geneva. He said he was in urgent need of money and was willing to sell secrets to the West. He added he did not want to defect because he was unwilling to leave his wife and children behind in the Soviet Union."

"In January 1964 Nosenko contacted the CIA and said he had changed his mind and was now willing to defect to the United States. He claimed that he had been recalled to Moscow to be interrogated. Nosenko feared that the KGB had discovered he was a double-agent and once back in the Soviet Union would be executed. Nosenko also claimed that he had important information about the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. He insisted that although Lee Harvey Oswald had lived in the Soviet Union he was not a KGB agent."

WC Page 760:

"The Commission therefore concludes that Lee Harvey Oswald had not expatriated himself by any acts performed....and concurs in the opinion of the State Department that his passport was... properly reissued in May 1962."

WC Page 758

"...the passport problem was finally concluded on May 24, 1962, when the Embassy renewed Oswald's passport for 30 days, stamped it valid for direct return to the United States only and handed it to him. A week later he used it to return to the United States."

Within days of Oswald's departure from the Soviet Union, Norsenko makes contact with the CIA. Nosenko is the first KGB agent to contact the CIA from the "Seventh Department" that just happens to be the department that monitored Oswald.

Nosenko then lies about his need to defect, and successfully defects, within days after the assassination of JFK, and has the information necessary to show that Oswald was in no way connected with the KGB. (Although he only read the first file, Epstein interview)

If James Jesus Angleton had been monitoring Oswald and had used him in a counterintel operation, Angleton's actions in the Nosenko episode are easily understandable. In the whole cover-up senario Angleton is tied to Golitsyn and Nosenko is believed (Posner, Case Closed), Oswald was not a KGB asset, just a "lone nut."

John Simkin is always asking why (the Kennedy family in particular) groups were so willing to attach themselves to the Warren Report? If Oswald was monitored and his movements feared by those at the top of "the food chain" (because of the importance of his role in the U-2 affair) of both countries the "cover-up" becomes easier to understand.

Jim Root

[Shanet Clark]

Jim

Good post. You and I see eye to eye on a lot of issues. Nosenko is one of the most impenetrable events in diplomatic history. Why was Nosenko imprisoned in the United States, after defecting with the information that Oswald was not KGB?

Either Angleton thought he was lying, or didn't want the truth to get out. The more I read about Angleton's counter-intelligence witch hunts, the more I am starting to think he was the United States' version of Kim Philby and Guy Burgess.

Shanet

[Jim Root]

Shanet

I tend to lead toward the belief that Angleton knew Nosenko was lying from the day he first contacted the CIA (timed to Oswald's departure from Russia). If Angleton saw the connection to Oswald from the start, Oswald is the real pawn. If Oswald figured out that both sides were using him or that it was the US that had used him.....then he is the "patsy" that went to the Soviet Union. Strange isn't it?

Oh, and Taylor gets his war!

Jim Root

[Shanet Clark]

Jim

This case is so counter-counter-counter espionage, I can barely follow.

I'm sure the other readers are completely in the dark.

Could you give a common sense overview of what you think the Nosenko case means, really lay it out, if you have time? I'll re-read my sources and get up to speed...there is a lot there and it ties in with Oswald, but its just so confusing, the Nosenko / Angleton thing..........

(....that part where the Warren COmmission says "oswald didn't expatriate himself" what a crock of hogwash!!...)

Edited December 3, 2004 by Shanet Clark

[Antti Hynonen]

Shanet and others,

Check out this page on John Simkin's Spartacus site, and also read the Angleton, and other links on this page.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/SSnosenko.htm

Regards,

[Tim Gratz]

Shanet and others,

Check out this page on John Simkin's Spartacus site, and also read the Angleton, and other links on this page.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/SSnosenko.htm

Regards,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The book Wedge by Riebling contains interesting discussion of the Nosenko

case.

There was a movie made about the Nosenko case (I have it in VHS). It's not a bad movie. Not sure if you can get it froim, for instance, Netflix.

Nosenko never told CIA apparently that KGB was bugging the Oswalds' apartment.

Nosenko may very well have been correct that LHO was not a KGB agent but his defection may nonetheless have been a KGB operation.

The Nosenko affair just adds more mystery to the assassination.

[Tim Carroll]

I tend to lead toward the belief that Angleton knew Nosenko was lying from the day he first contacted the CIA (timed to Oswald's departure from Russia).  If Angleton saw the connection to Oswald from the start, Oswald is the real pawn.  Jim Root

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We know that the Nosenko interrogation was an Angleton operation. That Nosenko was lying is not mutually exclusive to Angleton also lying, and that the purpose of Nosenko's house arrest was to keep Angleton's own operation secret. Let's not forget that if Nosenko were found credible, then Fedora had to be lying. Shanet's correct: this was counter-counter-counter intelligence.

Tim

[Jim Root]

Overview

To make it simple look at just these people. Oswald, Walker, Nosenko, Angleton, Taylor and McCloy (plus of course Kennedy...but he is the victim).

The assassination, as reported, does not take place without Oswald in the TSBD. Accepted fact.

"Lone nut" title comes from Oswald, reportedly, shoting at Walker and assassinating Kennedy (left vs right and a commie/Trotskite whatever else you want to add to make a "nut"). Accepted fact (remember for arguments sake I used the word reportedly).

Please trust me on this one: I can associate Walker and Taylor together from 1927 (West Point, teacher/student) to 1959 (Walker takes command of the 24th Infantry Div., Augsburg, Germany in October 1959, with the FSSF, the Greek Civil War, Korean POW exchange, First Straits of Taiwan and Little Rock in the middle).

Walker in Europe, Oct 1959 while Oswald goes to Russia on a plane that cannot be identified by the CIA but the WC reports his ticket is purchased for exactly $111.90 (see Serendipity).

HSCA reveals that our ambassador John Hickerson (who was a member of the Permanent Joint Board on Defense, US and Canada, 1940-1946 when the FSSF, later commanded by Walker was fromed) in Helsinki, on the same day that Oswald catches the unidentified plane, sends a message that reports exactly what needs to be done by anyone (Oswald) who wants to get into Russia easily. Oswald follows the instructions exactly and receives his visa in 24 hours after deverting from France to England. (Oct. 9, 1959)

April 1, 1960....the Army built, polar orbited, Tiros I "weather" satelite is launched by NASA. (I just like pointing this out)

May 1, 1960, Francis Gary Powers and his U-2 is "downed" over the Soviet Union. The cover for this flight it that it is on a NASA "weather" mission. (hope you see a connection to previous statement)

Without getting into a whole lot more (Kennedy election etc.) two things go wrong:

Powers lives

Oswald wants to return to the US

If Powers dies the cover story, stray aircraft missing over Russia, is believable to the American public. (Kennedy is not elected President, Taylor does not become Chairman of the Joint Chiefs)

If the US Embassy in Moscow allows Oswald to "officially" renounce his citizenship in 1960 he is not allowed to return to the US. (Oswald is not at TSBD to assassinate Kennedy)

As the flury of communication begins and the decision is made that Oswald will be allowed to return to the US, Walker is called on the carpet for his Pro Blue Program. He resigns from the Army and becomes well known for his "right wing" activities and distaste for Kennedy and his administration. (plausible deniability for any association to Kennedy)

Oswald and family leaves Russia and within days Nosenko contacts the CIA. (plausible deniability for any association to KGB)

Angleton never believes Nosenko.....the one person in the CIA that knows about the counter, counter, counter (whatever) intellegence operations.

April 10, 1963 Oswald (according to the WC) shots at Kennedy.

June 12, 1963 letter from McCloy placed in Walker file at West Point for public to see. (plausible deniablity?)

Agent Hosty reports to the State Department where Oswald is working on Nov. 5, 1963. The route is decided on Nov. 8th. Notes later get distroyed.

Nov. 22, 1963 Kennedy dies.

Jim Root

[John Simkin]

Shanet and others,

Check out this page on John Simkin's Spartacus site, and also read the Angleton, and other links on this page.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/SSnosenko.htm

Thanks for the publicity. I have been meaning to update my page on Nosenko for some time. I have done so this morning. It is worth following the links from this page. It is especially important to look at the role Anatoli Golitsin played in this.

I think the Nosenko case is a much under-researched area of the JFK assassination.

Yuri Nosenko was deputy chief of the Seventh Department of the KGB. His main responsibility was the recruitment of foreign spies. In June 1962 Nosenko made contact with the CIA in Geneva. He said he was in urgent need of money and was willing to sell secrets to the West. He added he did not want to defect because he was unwilling to leave his wife and children behind in the Soviet Union.

Nosenko, like Anatoli Golitsin, who had defected in December, 1961, he provided evidence that John Vassall was a Soviet agent. However, most of his evidence undermined that given by Golitsin. This included Golitsin's claim that a senior figure in the Admiralty was a spy.

When Golitsin had been interviewed he had claimed the KGB would be so concerned about his defection, they would attempt to convince the CIA that the information he was giving them would be completely unreliable. He predicted that the KGB would send false defectors with information that contradicted what he was saying. The CIA were now uncertain whether to believe Golitsin or Nosenko.

In January 1964 Nosenko contacted the CIA and said he had changed his mind and was now willing to defect to the United States. He claimed that he had been recalled to Moscow to be interrogated. Nosenko feared that the KGB had discovered he was a double-agent and once back in the Soviet Union would be executed.

Nosenko arrived in the United States on 14th February, 1964. However, soon afterwards, Nosenko was undermined by the US National Security Agency who had been monitoring communications between Moscow and Geneva. It discovered that Nosenko had lied about being recalled to the Soviet Union. He was now taken to a CIA detention cell and after extensive interrogation he admitted the story about him being recalled was untrue.

Nosenko claimed that he had important information about the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. He told the CIA that he had been the KGB officially who had personally handled the case of Lee Harvey Oswald. After interviewing Oswald it was decided that he was not intelligent enough to work as a KGB agent. They were also concerned that he was "too mentally unstable" to be of any use to them. Nosenko added that the KGB had never questioned Oswald about information he had acquired while a member of the U.S. Marines. This surprised the CIA as Oswald had worked as a Aviation Electronics Operator at the Atsugi Air Base in Japan.

Members of the Warren Commission were pleased to hear this information as it helped to confirm the idea that Oswald had acted alone and was not part of a Soviet conspiracy to kill John F. Kennedy. CIA chief of intelligence, James Jesus Angleton, did not believe parts of Nosenko's story. He was supported by another KGB defector, Anatoli Golitsin. He had worked in some of the same departments as Nosenko but had never met him. After being interviewed for several days Nosenko admitted that some aspects of his story were not true. For example, Nosenko had previously said he was a lieutenant colonel in the KGB. He confessed that he had exaggerated his rank to make himself attractive to the CIA. However, initially he had provided KGB documents that said Nosenko was a lieutenant colonel.

The story was further complicated by the fact that another Soviet KGB defector under FBI control (code name Fedora) corroborated Nosenko's story. Therefore, if Nosenko was lying, it meant that Fedora was also a disinformation agent sent to the United States to confuse the security agencies. Nosenko was given two lie detector tests by the CIA. Both suggested he was lying about Lee Harvey Oswald.

The CIA now decided to put Nosenko under intense physical physical and psychological pressure. This involved him being kept in solitary confinement for 1,277 days. A light was left burning in his unheated cell for twenty-four hours a day and he was given nothing to read and his guards were ordered not to speak to him. However, Nosenko did not crack and insisted that Oswald was not a KGB agent.

James Jesus Angleton, chief of the CIA's counter-intelligence section, believed that Anatoli Golitsin was a genuine double-agent but argued that Nosenko was part of a disinformation campaign. However, Richard Helms (CIA) and J. Edgar Hoover (FBI) believed Nosenko and considered Golitsin was a fake.

Nosenko was eventually released and was given a false identity. He became an adviser to the CIA and the FBI on a salary of more than $35,000 a year. He was also given a lump sum of $150,000 as payment for his ordeal.

What was therefore going on? Nosenko told a great many lies and is now seen as a disinformation agent. If that was the case, Fedora was also a disinformation agent.

What were the KGB up to? There is two possible explanations. (1) The KGB was involved in the assassination of JFK. (2) The KGB was not involved in the assassination but feared that the American government would use this invented conspiracy as an excuse to invade Cuba. Therefore Nosenko was sent to America to convince the CIA that this was not the case.

I believe the second of these options. It clearly made no political sense at all for the Soviets to assassinate JFK. What is interesting is the desire of the CIA and FBI to believe Nosenko. This is especially true of the decision by the KGB not to interrogate Oswald about his knowledge of the U-2 plane. This is of course nonsense. So also is the claim that Oswald was not intelligent enough to work as a double-agent.

We therefore have to assume that Oswald was in fact a triple agent. That is to say, he was sent to the Soviet Union by the CIA as a disinformation agent. This involved him convincing the Soviets he was willing to return to the United States as a spy.

However, when he returned to the States he once again became a CIA/FBI agent. If he had been a Soviet spy he would never have associated himself with left-wing groups in America. However, when Oswald was arrested they became convinced that he had been set up by the FBI/CIA in order to instigate an invasion of Cuba. Sending Nosenko to the West was a desperate attempt to stop this happening. However, unknown to the Soviets, LBJ had already decided not to invade Cuba and instead was involved in covering up his connections with the KGB and CIA. That leaves us with the question why? I have attempted to answer that with my seminar on LBJ.

This analysis raises another important issue, If Nosenko was a disinformation agent, Anatoli Golitsin was a true KGB defector. Therefore it is interesting to see what other information he supplied. It included the claim that Kim Philby, Donald Maclean and Guy Burgess were members of a Ring of Five agents in MI5. We now know that was true. Golitsin also provided information about two spies in the Admiralty. Using the information supplied by Golitsin, MI5 came to the conclusion that one of these men could be John Vassall, a 37-year-old clerk working in the Admiralty. He was later convicted as a spy.

Golitsin also suggested that W. Averell Harriman had been a Soviet spy, while he was the U.S. Ambassador to the Soviet Union during the Second World War. Angleton was convinced by this story as he knew someone was involved in spying the negotiations that took place between Winston Churchill and Franklin D. Roosevelt. However, other CIA officers thought the story ridiculous and Harriman was appointed by LBJ as ambassador-at-large for Southeast Asian affairs.

Jim Marrs has a very good section in his book Crossfire on Nosenko. He quotes a passage from a book by Arkady Shevchenko (Breaking With Moscow). It is worth reading this passage very carefully.

In November 1963, President Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas. Everyone in the (Soviet) mission was stunned and confused, particularly when there were rumors that the murder had been Soviet-inspired... Our leaders would not have been so upset by the assassination if they had planned it and the KGB would not have taken upon itself to venture such a move without Politburo approval. More important, Khrushchev's view of Kennedy had changed. After Cuba, Moscow perceived Kennedy as the one who had accelerated improvement of relations between the two countries. Kennedy was seen as a man of strength and determination, the one thing that Kremlin truly understands and respects. In addition, Moscow firmly believed that Kennedy's assassination was a scheme by "reactionary forces" within the United States seeking to damage the new trend in relations. The Kremlin ridiculed the Warren Commission's conclusion that Oswald had acted on his own as the sole assassin. There was in fact widespread speculation among Soviet diplomats that Lyndon Johnson, along with the CIA and the Mafia, had masterminded the plot. Perhaps one of the most potent reasons why the U.S.S.R. wished Kennedy well was that Johnson was anathema to Khrushchev. Because he was a southerner, Moscow considered him a racist (the stereotype of any American politician from below the Mason Dixon line), an anti-Soviet and anti-Communist to the core. Further, since Johnson was from Texas, a center of the most reactionary forces in the United States, according to the Soviets, he was associated with the big-time capitalism of the oil industry, also known to be anti-Soviet.

[Tim Gratz]

Shanet and others,

Check out this page on John Simkin's Spartacus site, and also read the Angleton, and other links on this page.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/SSnosenko.htm

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for the publicity. I have been meaning to update my page on Nosenko for some time. I have done so this morning. It is worth following the links from this page. It is especially important to look at the role Anatoli Golitsin played in this.

I think the Nosenko case is a much under-researched area of the JFK assassination.

Yuri Nosenko was deputy chief of the Seventh Department of the KGB. His main responsibility was the recruitment of foreign spies. In June 1962 Nosenko made contact with the CIA in Geneva. He said he was in urgent need of money and was willing to sell secrets to the West. He added he did not want to defect because he was unwilling to leave his wife and children behind in the Soviet Union.

Nosenko, like Anatoli Golitsin, who had defected in December, 1961, he provided evidence that John Vassall was a Soviet agent. However, most of his evidence undermined that given by Golitsin. This included Golitsin's claim that a senior figure in the Admiralty was a spy.

When Golitsin had been interviewed he had claimed the KGB would be so concerned about his defection, they would attempt to convince the CIA that the information he was giving them would be completely unreliable. He predicted that the KGB would send false defectors with information that contradicted what he was saying. The CIA were now uncertain whether to believe Golitsin or Nosenko.

In January 1964 Nosenko contacted the CIA and said he had changed his mind and was now willing to defect to the United States. He claimed that he had been recalled to Moscow to be interrogated. Nosenko feared that the KGB had discovered he was a double-agent and once back in the Soviet Union would be executed.

Nosenko arrived in the United States on 14th February, 1964. However, soon afterwards, Nosenko was undermined by the US National Security Agency who had been monitoring communications between Moscow and Geneva. It discovered that Nosenko had lied about being recalled to the Soviet Union. He was now taken to a CIA detention cell and after extensive interrogation he admitted the story about him being recalled was untrue.

Nosenko claimed that he had important information about the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. He told the CIA that he had been the KGB officially who had personally handled the case of Lee Harvey Oswald. After interviewing Oswald it was decided that he was not intelligent enough to work as a KGB agent. They were also concerned that he was "too mentally unstable" to be of any use to them. Nosenko added that the KGB had never questioned Oswald about information he had acquired while a member of the U.S. Marines. This surprised the CIA as Oswald had worked as a Aviation Electronics Operator at the Atsugi Air Base in Japan.

Members of the Warren Commission were pleased to hear this information as it helped to confirm the idea that Oswald had acted alone and was not part of a Soviet conspiracy to kill John F. Kennedy. CIA chief of intelligence, James Jesus Angleton, did not believe parts of Nosenko's story. He was supported by another KGB defector, Anatoli Golitsin. He had worked in some of the same departments as Nosenko but had never met him. After being interviewed for several days Nosenko admitted that some aspects of his story were not true. For example, Nosenko had previously said he was a lieutenant colonel in the KGB. He confessed that he had exaggerated his rank to make himself attractive to the CIA. However, initially he had provided KGB documents that said Nosenko was a lieutenant colonel.

The story was further complicated by the fact that another Soviet KGB defector under FBI control (code name Fedora) corroborated Nosenko's story. Therefore, if Nosenko was lying, it meant that Fedora was also a disinformation agent sent to the United States to confuse the security agencies. Nosenko was given two lie detector tests by the CIA. Both suggested he was lying about Lee Harvey Oswald.

The CIA now decided to put Nosenko under intense physical physical and psychological pressure. This involved him being kept in solitary confinement for 1,277 days. A light was left burning in his unheated cell for twenty-four hours a day and he was given nothing to read and his guards were ordered not to speak to him. However, Nosenko did not crack and insisted that Oswald was not a KGB agent.

James Jesus Angleton, chief of the CIA's counter-intelligence section, believed that Anatoli Golitsin was a genuine double-agent but argued that Nosenko was part of a disinformation campaign. However, Richard Helms (CIA) and J. Edgar Hoover (FBI) believed Nosenko and considered Golitsin was a fake.

Nosenko was eventually released and was given a false identity. He became an adviser to the CIA and the FBI on a salary of more than $35,000 a year. He was also given a lump sum of $150,000 as payment for his ordeal.

What was therefore going on? Nosenko told a great many lies and is now seen as a disinformation agent. If that was the case, Fedora was also a disinformation agent.

What were the KGB up to? There is two possible explanations. (1) The KGB was involved in the assassination of JFK. (2) The KGB was not involved in the assassination but feared that the American government would use this invented conspiracy as an excuse to invade Cuba. Therefore Nosenko was sent to America to convince the CIA that this was not the case.

I believe the second of these options. It clearly made no political sense at all for the Soviets to assassinate JFK. What is interesting is the desire of the CIA and FBI to believe Nosenko. This is especially true of the decision by the KGB not to interrogate Oswald about his knowledge of the U-2 plane. This is of course nonsense. So also is the claim that Oswald was not intelligent enough to work as a double-agent.

We therefore have to assume that Oswald was in fact a triple agent. That is to say, he was sent to the Soviet Union by the CIA as a disinformation agent. This involved him convincing the Soviets he was willing to return to the United States as a spy.

However, when he returned to the States he once again became a CIA/FBI agent. If he had been a Soviet spy he would never have associated himself with left-wing groups in America. However, when Oswald was arrested they became convinced that he had been set up by the FBI/CIA in order to instigate an invasion of Cuba. Sending Nosenko to the West was a desperate attempt to stop this happening. However, unknown to the Soviets, LBJ had already decided not to invade Cuba and instead was involved in covering up his connections with the KGB and CIA. That leaves us with the question why? I have attempted to answer that with my seminar on LBJ.

This analysis raises another important issue, If Nosenko was a disinformation agent, Anatoli Golitsin was a true KGB defector. Therefore it is interesting to see what other information he supplied. It included the claim that Kim Philby, Donald Maclean and Guy Burgess were members of a Ring of Five agents in MI5. We now know that was true. Golitsin also provided information about two spies in the Admiralty. Using the information supplied by Golitsin, MI5 came to the conclusion that one of these men could be John Vassall, a 37-year-old clerk working in the Admiralty. He was later convicted as a spy.

Golitsin also suggested that W. Averell Harriman had been a Soviet spy, while he was the U.S. Ambassador to the Soviet Union during the Second World War. Angleton was convinced by this story as he knew someone was involved in spying the negotiations that took place between Winston Churchill and Franklin D. Roosevelt. However, other CIA officers thought the story ridiculous and Harriman was appointed by LBJ as ambassador-at-large for Southeast Asian affairs.

Jim Marrs has a very good section in his book Crossfire on Nosenko. He quotes a passage from a book by Arkady Shevchenko (Breaking With Moscow). It is worth reading this passage very carefully.

In November 1963, President Kennedy was assassinated in Dallas. Everyone in the (Soviet) mission was stunned and confused, particularly when there were rumors that the murder had been Soviet-inspired... Our leaders would not have been so upset by the assassination if they had planned it and the KGB would not have taken upon itself to venture such a move without Politburo approval. More important, Khrushchev's view of Kennedy had changed. After Cuba, Moscow perceived Kennedy as the one who had accelerated improvement of relations between the two countries. Kennedy was seen as a man of strength and determination, the one thing that Kremlin truly understands and respects. In addition, Moscow firmly believed that Kennedy's assassination was a scheme by "reactionary forces" within the United States seeking to damage the new trend in relations. The Kremlin ridiculed the Warren Commission's conclusion that Oswald had acted on his own as the sole assassin. There was in fact widespread speculation among Soviet diplomats that Lyndon Johnson, along with the CIA and the Mafia, had masterminded the plot. Perhaps one of the most potent reasons why the U.S.S.R. wished Kennedy well was that Johnson was anathema to Khrushchev. Because he was a southerner, Moscow considered him a racist (the stereotype of any American politician from below the Mason Dixon line), an anti-Soviet and anti-Communist to the core. Further, since Johnson was from Texas, a center of the most reactionary forces in the United States, according to the Soviets, he was associated with the big-time capitalism of the oil industry, also known to be anti-Soviet.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is worth considering the possibility of KGB involvement in the assassination. Joseph Trento, the journalist who reported the story that E Howard Hunt may have been in Dallas on 11-22-63, wrote a book, The Secret History of the CIA. In that book Trento claims that a faction in the KGB helped orchestrate or sponsor the Kennedy assassination was also behind the peaceful ouster of Khruschev a year later. His theory at least merits consideration.

I have always considered it anamalous to argue that: (1) LHO was an agent of US intelligence; (2) LHO was merely a patsy; and (3) the CIA was behind the assassination. If LHO was indeed a US intelligence asset, it would be foolhardy for the CIA to use him as a patsy. Would be more likely the planners were anti-CIA, eg KGB, who knew LHO was a CIA agent.

Or, the possibility that the assassination was planned by someone who wanted to blame it on Castro and who did not know that LHO was a CIA agent, e.g. for instance anti-Castro Cubans.

If Nosenko was a disinformation agent and Golitsin was genuine, it does not necessarily mean that LHO was a KGB agent, of course. Nosenko might have been a false defector on a KGB mission but intended by the KGB to convince the US of what was in fact true: the assassination was not a KGB operation. On the other hand, if Nosenko was a false defector, the possibility cannot be discounted that the information he was supplying was false.

John states that it made no sense for the KGB to assassinate JFK. Consider this chronology, however:

(1) Late March a Soviet ship is sunk in Havana harbor.

(2) Late April Castro and a large entourage travel to Moscow and spend four or five weeks there.

(3) On the same day that Cubela recontacts the CIA in Brazil, Castro goes to the Brazilian Embassasy in Havana to warn about American efforts to kill Cuban leaders.

(4) On October 29, 1963 Desmond Fitzgerald advises Cubela that he is a personal emissary of Robert Kennedy and that RFK support's Cubela's plans to overthrow Castro, plans that involve the assassination of Castro. Helms told Fitzgerald he could make this representation without clearing it with RFK.

(5) Obviously, Cubela's plan was a violation of JFK's agreement to keep US hands of Cuba if the Soviets withdrew the missiles.

(6) Within a month JFK is dead.

(7) According to Joseph Califano, who was working on anti-Castro operations for JFK, after the assassination LBJ ordered Califano to stop the anti-Castro operations.

(8) While in prison in 1959, Trafficante was visited by (among others, presumably) Jack Ruby and Rolando Cubela.

(9) Add to this the strange saga of Gilberto Lopez, who came to Key West from Cuba in 1961, but around the time that Castro and crew were in Moscow, moved to Tampa (home, of course, of Mr. Trafficante). Lopez obtained a visa to visit Mexico for fourteen days, and he entered Mexico from Texas on November 23. A few days later, he flew to Cuba, never to return to the U.S.

Who was the primary beneficiary of the JFK assassination? Well, it may have saved LBJ jail time but, arguably, the man who benefited the most was Fidel Castro, becaue it saved his LIFE. I mean, sooner or later one of the CIA-sponsored assassination efforts against Castro would have probably succeeded.

If this scenario (obviously a hypothetical but one consistent with many of the facts) is correct, how could the KGB be assured that LBJ would not retaliate if KGB or Cuban involvement was suspected? Well, if it looked like events were heading in that direction, did the KGB have evidence through Cubela that JFK's brother had personally endorsed plans to kill Castro?

Did Castro have motive to kill JFK? Yes. Was the motivation "retaliation" for past US efforts to kill him? Well, since the efforts were continuing, and did so despite Castro's Sept 7, 1963 warning, wouldn't the motive be more properly classified as "self defense"? Understand this motive works whether or not JFK and RFK were in fact apprised of the CIA assassination efforts. What matters is, if Cubela was indeed a double agent whose allegiance was to Castro, through Cubela Castro had reason to believe (whether correctly or not) that the Kennedy brothers had personally endorsed his assassination.

This is a scenario that fits some of the facts in the assassination. I would like to find out what basis Trento has for asserting that a faction within the KGB sponsored the JFK assassination (he even names names of KGB officials involved).

In any event, I submit it bears some consideration that Trento had information that supported the story he reports in his book.

[John Simkin]

I have always considered it anamalous to argue that: (1) LHO was an agent of US intelligence; (2) LHO was merely a patsy; and (3) the CIA was behind the assassination.  If LHO was indeed a US intelligence asset, it would be foolhardy for the CIA to use him as a patsy.  Would be more likely the planners were anti-CIA, eg KGB, who knew LHO was a CIA agent.

Or, the possibility that the assassination was planned by someone who wanted to blame it on Castro and who did not know that LHO was a CIA agent, e.g. for instance anti-Castro Cubans.

If Nosenko was a disinformation agent and Golitsin was genuine, it does not necessarily mean that LHO was a KGB agent, of course.  Nosenko might have been a false defector on a KGB mission but intended by the KGB to convince the US of what was in fact true: the assassination was not a KGB operation.  On the other hand, if Nosenko was a false defector, the possibility cannot be discounted that the information he was supplying was false.

Interesting posting. You ask some very important questions.

I agree that the choice of Oswald means that it was definitely not an official CIA or FBI operation. It is possible that it could have been planned by rogue CIA agents with a grudge against their leaders. They knew that if their role was discovered it would be covered-up.

There is a very good reason why we know that Khrushchev or Castro were not behind the assassination of JFK. As Oswald correctly pointed out after he was arrested. What is the point of replacing JFK with LBJ? The Soviets knew that LBJ was more of a hard-line cold warrior than JFK. This action would have given them a good excuse for a US invasion of Cuba. It is for this reason that we know it was not the Soviets who organized the conspiracy. The people who used Oswald either wanted to implicate the Soviets, Castro, or some other secret organization that Oswald was a member of (CIA/FBI). They did this either to get something else to happen (an invasion of Cuba) or to ensure CIA/FBI involvement in the cover-up.

[Tim Carroll]

I have always considered it anamalous to argue that: (1) LHO was an agent of US intelligence; (2) LHO was merely a patsy; and (3) the CIA was behind the assassination.  If LHO was indeed a US intelligence asset, it would be foolhardy for the CIA to use him as a patsy.  Would be more likely the planners were anti-CIA, eg KGB, who knew LHO was a CIA agent....

Who was the primary beneficiary of the JFK assassination?  Well, it may have saved LBJ jail time but, arguably, the man who benefited the most was Fidel Castro, becaue it saved his LIFE. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree that if Oswald was an intelligent agent, "it would be foolhardy for the CIA to use him as a patsy" - institutionally. I believe that JFK's efforts to terminate the provocations of the anti-Castro community were sincere. His joust at the abyss had brought home the seriousness of potential repercussions. But the Nosenko episode does point up an agency that would benefit from such: the FBI. The Nosenko dilemma was that if he was telling the truth, the the FBI's Fedora must be lying. Who was the prime beneficiary: LBJ/Hoover/Military/Right Wing. That is not a menu of various entities, it is singular. That the well-trained anti-Castro Cubans embodied the optimal combination of skill, motive, and deniability for operational purposes cannot be dismissed.

Neither Castro nor Khrushchev thought they could get anyone better than JFK into power. As for putting an end to assassination plots against Castro, our own government's advocacy and support for the recent Panamanian prison releases demonstrates that these did not end with JFK's demise.

Tim

[Jim Root]

Tim

I'm not sure that I agree that Oswald was a knowing intelligence agent.

I like this quote from:

James Jesus Angleton: The Orchid Man By Edward Jay Epstein

"...Angleton answered, with a thin smile, suggesting a deliberate understatement, "Truth is always complicated when its comes to defectors". He then added that the case was "still sensitive" and he could not discuss it. With that, he abruptly cut off the conversation about Nosenko, and moved on to a subject of which I had no understanding at all: Orchids. Ordering another bottle of vintage wine, he went into elaborate detail about the pollinating conditions for Dendrobian, Phalaenopsis, Cattyleas, Cymbidian and other tribes of orchids, especially their deceptive qualities. He explained it had not been the fittest but the most deceptive orchid that had survived. The perpetuation of most species of orchids depend on their ability to misrepresent themselves to insects. Having no food to offer the insects, they had to deceive them into landing on them and carrying their pollen to another orchid in the tribe. Orchids are too dispersed in nature to depend on the wind to carry their pollen.

To accomplish this deception, orchids use color, shape and odor to mimic something that attracts insects to their pods of pollen. Some orchids play on the sexual instincts of insects. The tricocerus orchid, for example, so perfectly mimics in three-dimensional the underside of a female fly, downs to the hairs and smell, that they trigger mating response from passing male flies. Seeing what he thinks is a female fly, the male fly swoops down on the orchid, and attempts to have sex with it-- a process called psuedo-copulation. In doing so, the motion causes the fly to hit the pollen pod, which attaches itself to his underside. The fly thus becomes an unwitting carrier. When the fly then passes another tricocerus orchid, and repeat the frustrating process, it pollinates that orchid.

It gradually became clear that he was not only talking about an insect being manipulated through deception but an intelligence service being similarly duped, seduced, provoked, blinded, lured down false trails and used by an enemy."

"The fly thus becomes an unwitting carrier."

Is this another phrase for "patsy."

And what would the fly do if it realized it had been used in this way?

Jim Root

[Tim Gratz]

I have always considered it anamalous to argue that: (1) LHO was an agent of US intelligence; (2) LHO was merely a patsy; and (3) the CIA was behind the assassination.  If LHO was indeed a US intelligence asset, it would be foolhardy for the CIA to use him as a patsy.  Would be more likely the planners were anti-CIA, eg KGB, who knew LHO was a CIA agent.

Or, the possibility that the assassination was planned by someone who wanted to blame it on Castro and who did not know that LHO was a CIA agent, e.g. for instance anti-Castro Cubans.

If Nosenko was a disinformation agent and Golitsin was genuine, it does not necessarily mean that LHO was a KGB agent, of course.  Nosenko might have been a false defector on a KGB mission but intended by the KGB to convince the US of what was in fact true: the assassination was not a KGB operation.  On the other hand, if Nosenko was a false defector, the possibility cannot be discounted that the information he was supplying was false.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Interesting posting. You ask some very important questions.

I agree that the choice of Oswald means that it was definitely not an official CIA or FBI operation. It is possible that it could have been planned by rogue CIA agents with a grudge against their leaders. They knew that if their role was discovered it would be covered-up.

There is a very good reason why we know that Khrushchev or Castro were not behind the assassination of JFK. As Oswald correctly pointed out after he was arrested. What is the point of replacing JFK with LBJ? The Soviets knew that LBJ was more of a hard-line cold warrior than JFK. This action would have given them a good excuse for a US invasion of Cuba. It is for this reason that we know it was not the Soviets who organized the conspiracy. The people who used Oswald either wanted to implicate the Soviets, Castro, or some other secret organization that Oswald was a member of (CIA/FBI). They did this either to get something else to happen (an invasion of Cuba) or to ensure CIA/FBI involvement in the cover-up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

John, respectfully, LBJ did have an excuse to invade Cuba, including intelligence reports out of Cuba (some of which may have been false) linking LHO to a Cuban plot. But LBJ understood the potential ramifications of an outright US invasion of Cuba. Why would LBJ want to potentially initiate a nuclear exchange which, as he said, could kill 39 million Americans (maybe even himself or his family), merely to solve the murder of a man for whom, by all reports, he was not particularly fond, and from whose death he certainly benefited politically? LBJ's problem was that if the public believed (or if a thorough investigation proved) that Castro was behind the assassination, he might have commited political suicide by refusing to invade Cuba. Hence his need to shut off an adequate investigation (that might or might not have shown Cuban involvement) and quickly convince the public that LHO was a lone nut.

Assuming that Cubela was an agent provacateur (as the circumstances suggest and many believe) then Castro knew that a high-ranking government official had assured Cubela that Cubela's plan to assassinate Castro had the personal support of Robert Kennedy. And there are reports that Cubela was also assured that language would be inserted in a JFK speech to demonstrate JFK's own support for the Cubela operation (which happened at JFK's Nov 18 speech to the IAPA in Miami). As I said in my first post, if Cubela was a Castro "dangle", it matters not whether RFK and/or JFK were indeed aware of the Cubela operation--Cubela (and through him Castro) were convinced that the plot was endorsed by the Kennedys.

Granted, there were risks in an assassination, but what did Castro have to lose? His own life was at stake. If the Kennedys were indeed behind the latest plot to kill him (initiated on the same day that he made a point of telling an American reporter of the risks to the lives of American officials if plots to kill Cuban officials continued) how long could Castro survive continued US efforts to shoot him, poison his food, or scratch him with a poison pen? Moreover, it is possible that if, after the assassination it looked like an American invasion was planned, Castrro had proof of the American plots against his life (is it possible Cubela was even able to record Fitzgerald's Oct 29th meeting with him?). Castro could perhaps count on world public opinion to prevent an American invasion if the CIA plots were publicized.

Under this scenario, Castro thought (rightly or wrongly, it matters not) that the Kennedys were behind efforts to kill him. How on earth could Johnson have possibly been worse for Castro than the Kennedys, who were plotting his demise? To paraphrase a saying, it can't get much worse than that!

And indeed, as I pointed out, according to Joseph Califano's recently published memoirs, LBJ ordered Califano to once and for all stop the operations against Castro.

I do agree with you that it was possible that "rogue CIA agents" may have been involved, or anti-Castro Cubans who were not aware of LHO's ties to US intelligence (if such ties did exist, which the circumstances certainly suggest (as Sen Schweiker once famously observed, LHO had the "fingerprints of intelligence all over him"). But if "rogue CIA agents" or anti-Castro Cubans planned the assassination to trigger a US invasion of Cuba, their plan backfired. If, instead, it was a Cuban-initiated operation to stop further US efforts to assassinate Castro, the motive behind the assassination was successful.

Of course, one of the first reasons people suspected a conspiracy was Ruby's murder of LHO. In this regard, I think the significance of the fact that Trafficante had ties to both Ruby and Cubela can hardly be minimized. And there is evidence, of course, that the Trafficante organization was behind the murders of Giancana and Rosselli.

In the 1960s our government plotted the murder of Patrice Lumumba and Trujillo--who were in fact murdered (but not, according to the Church Committee, directly by CIA assets); we authorized a plot against the Diems in Vietnam that led to their murders; and we tried numerous timnes to kill Castro.

Perhaps the assassination of John F. Kennedy was the tragic price our country paid for the endorsement of murder as a valid instrument of foreign policy.

[Tim Carroll]

Tim

I'm not sure that I agree that Oswald was a knowing intelligence agent.

Jim Root

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I never said or implied "knowing."

Tim